Southeast Asia Without the Crowds?
 

Our late 2020 trip to Egypt was particularly enjoyable, not just because of the incredible history and culture, but because we had much of the historic blockbuster sights - from the Pyramids of Giza to the tombs at the Valley of the Kings to Karnak Temple - pretty much to ourselves. Never would we have imagined that we would be alone in such sought-after sights. We've been thinking since our trip to Egypt about the various places we've wanted to visit or revisit, especially places that have become overcrowded in the years leading up to the pandemic. Angkor is one of these places.

While we realize that 2022 is not the same as 2020 and visitors are coming back, even in Asia, it's probably our best opportunity to visit a place such as Angkor with fewer visitors than at any point in recent memory - probably in our lifetimes. We've never been to Cambodia but are thinking about using it to anchor a trip to the country with a couple of days in Phnom Penh.

If we're going all the way to Asia, we'll probably want to add another country to the mix. Thailand immediately come to mind as we all loved our previous visit to Bangkok too long ago. Other places that come to mind are Sukhothai and Chiang Mai, given our interest in Buddhist temples, historical sights, and ruins in general. Another option is to combine Cambodia with Laos. Based on research, places of interest include Luang Prabang and the Pakse / Bolaven Plateau area. The challenge with Laos is that flights seem slower to come back online.

For folks who have logged more visits to this part of the world than me, I'm interested in your thoughts and suggestions. Cambodia and Thailand OR Cambodia and Laos? Other places that may be less tourist-trafficked worth checking out given our interests?

Thank you.

I was lucky enough to visit Angkor and Luang Prabang before the crowds (2001 and 2004), and LP after the crowds (2010). It's definitely worth trying to get there before the crowds return. I prefer Laos and Vietnam to Thailand, and you certainly don't have to go to Thailand for temples. I prefer to travel overland, and would not rule out Laos because of a shortage of flights. For instance, if you start in Bangkok you can take the train to the border with Laos, and a tuk-tuk to Vientiane. There should be a bus to LP. Trains also run from Bangkok to the Cambodian border.

Looks like Travelfish is still a good place for planning: https://www.travelfish.org/

Thursdaysd and I are very likeminded in our approach ti travel so it wont come as any surprise that I concur with her views.

We first visited Angkor in the early 2000s. When we went to photograph the dawn rising over the complex there were maybe 5-10 people there. When we went again in 2008 maybe 2000 people beat us to it! The last time we went was to take my inlays for their 50th wedding anniversary and we just didn't bother with the dawn. Indeed we were quite shocked by the volume of tourists which did not make for a pleasant experience. Most were Chinese in large tour groups and lets just say they are not the best behaved or well mannered tourists around. They are currently quarantined in their own country so as long as that remains, Siem Reap will be a much more pleasant experience. When they open up the borders I can imagine a huge tsunami of tourist taking over the place.

The same applied to Luang Prabang 1999 - empty. 2008 absolute heaving!

My subjective view of course, but I would not bother with Thailand other than as place to possibly fly into and move on. Sukothai and Chiang Mai pale into insignificance compared with Angkor and LP (and many other Asian cities for that matter.

Laos is a wonderful country. We have travelled all over from the far north from the Vietnam border south into Cambodia. We have done it by public transport, mostly bus and boat. It is pretty straightforward but expect things to go wrong, delays etc it is great fun though! When we working and cash rich but time poor, we did hire a car and guide/driver to get us around. Great way to pack more in if short on time. There are lots of temples in Laos - LP, Vientienne but I would say it is more about the minority tribe village and the scenery which is stunning. The Bolavens Plateu is beautiful and it is an easy jaunt from there to the Cambodian border via Si Phan Don (4000 islands) in the Mekong.

Another trip we did more recently which included Cambodia was overland from Vietnam. We had spent a few months travelling down from Hanoi to Saigon where we met up with some friends from England and carried on through the Mekong Delta to Chau Doc and then got a boat along the river to Phnom Penh and then up to Siem Reap.

Here is a link to our blog https://accidentalnomads.com use the destination tab to find the country. There is a lot on Vietnam, some on Cambodia but sadly I never got around to posting re Laos. Though if you click on my screen name I probably did a trip report here at some point.

There is a huge range of permutations of routes you could take but which one is clearly going to be governed by your own interests. Happy to help where I can. How long have you got?

Now I think about it, this was my first trip to SEA in 2002 (should have been 2002 not 2001 in my first post). It included a couple of tours but they could easily be done on your own: Wilhelm's Words -- Travels Round Asia 2002

Thursdaysd and Crellston, thank you both. I will look at the links you've shared. We're looking at 21-22 nights on the ground. My only concern about overland travel - not opposed to it - is that some of the distances could be great and we have limited time.

>> The challenge with Laos is that flights seem slower to come back online.

That would be a good thing as it would mean tourist numbers are slower to come back up.

Night trains in Thailand are, or at least were, very good. I've never done first class, but in second the berths are parallel to the side of the carriage and come with curtains, so plenty of privacy. Then I look at bus and boat travel as part of the trip - sit back and enjoy the scenery.

With three weeks to play with you need to be really focused upon where you want to go. Overland travel does take time though if you can schedule certain journeys overnight, it can actually save "usable" time in certain circumstances. There is also the view, often attributed to Emerson that "Life is a journey not a destination" I happen to like travelling by train. Buses in Asia , not so much. Trains in Thailand can be a viable alternative to flying. An overnight train from Bangkok to Chiang Mai is certainly worth considering. A train to the Lao border is also worth a look. In Cambodia there are one or two routes that may be of interest. Phnom Penh to Kampot being one. Laos now has high speed trains running from the Chinese border to Vientiane. Luang Prabang to Vientiane now takes only a couple of hours. In Vietnam we have done the Reunification express from Hanoi to Saigon maybe 3 or 4 times, stopping off at various places along the way. A great way to avoid tourists and meet the Vietnames people!

www.seat61.com is a terrific resource for train travel.

With three weeks to play with, I would probably look at:

1. Bangkok - Chiang Mai/ Chiang Rai. Cross the border into Laos at Huay Xai and get a boat downriver to Luang Prabang and from there do a driver/guide car tour around the north. Luang Namtha-Muang Sing- Phongsali etc. and fly back to Bangkok
2. Saigon - Mekong Delta - boat to Phnom Penh - side trip to Kampot fly to Siem Reap and then head back home
3. Saigon to Hanoi or vice versa. Both cities deserve 3 -4 day min. the rest of the time I would use stopping off at places between the two. Hue, Hoi An, Phong Nha Khe Be, Quy Nhon are all contenders and can easily be reached by train or plane. £-4 4 days in the delta from Saigon would enable you to se some of my fav places in Asia. Chau Doc, Ben Are, Can Tho or, if you want to "push the boat out" (literally ) take a cruise of the delta with someone like Mekong Eyes.

Just a few ideas I dragged up from our past visits to Asia.

N.B. When you decide to go will have a major bearing on where you go. Weather patterns in SEA are complex to put it mildly. Do check the weather sites. for many of those areas Nov - March/April is a good time weather wise though in Northern Thailand and Laos they start burning the forests to clear land for crops from March /April onwards so I would avoid that time there. We made that mistake once and had to fly out of LP to the "clean" air of Bangkok.

Anyway just a few ideas

Thanks again crellston and Thursdays. I'll take a look at some of the places you've referenced. In terms of transport, we will look at train options but will want to keep train travel to under 5 hours. Night trains won't work as I need to be able to go back to a hotel room at the end of the day for work space and reliable Internet, not to mention I cannot sleep on trains. I realize this may limit my options. Our only must-do is Angkor.

Assuming flight availability stays the way it is right now, then we're looking at a fairly standard itinerary that involves Cambodia and Thailand.

• Fly into Phnom Penh, 2-3 nights. We're thinking probably 2 nights are enough given the closure of the Royal Palace and the Silver Pagoda.
• Car and driver to Siem Reap, 4-5 nights. From what we gather this is a 5-6 hour journey. Are there interesting places to stop along the way? We wouldn't mind overnighting somewhere either. What about travelling by boat via Tonle Sap instead? Has anyone down this and would you recommend it over an overland trip?
• Fly to Chiang Mai via Bangkok, 4 nights. We expect the flight to take much of the day, leaving 3 days for Chiang Mai and the surrounding area.
• Car and driver to Sukhothai, 2 nights. Any interesting places to stop between Chiang Mai and Sukhothai?
• Fly to Bangkok, 5-6 nights

If there are better places to visit in Thailand than Chiang Mai and / or Sukhothai, we am wide open to considering those. Where have you gone in Thailand that you would recommend? We've only been to Bangkok, which we all loved, and Phuket, which we don't need to revisit. Phuket was fine and we enjoyed what we saw, but we are not swimmers and not into much beach time. Prefer to spend the time sightseeing, immersed in culture, hiking, or seeing wildlife.

If flights to and within Laos resume, then we would be looking at a Cambodia and Laos itinerary. We don't expect the Cambodia portion to be different but are thinking about the following for Laos:

• Fly from Siem Reap to Pakse, 5-6 nights. Would you recommend basing in Pakse, Champasak, or somewhere else? Or splitting the time? We would be looking at higher-end accommodation options. In addition to temples, the waterfalls of the area are appealing as well as the Four Thousand Islands.
• Fly from Pakse to Luang Prabang, 4 nights.
• Train to Vientiane, 2-3 nights. Hiring a car and driver is an option if there are interesting sights along the way as well as stopping overnight somewhere.

Vietnam is of interest but it feels like we need at least the full 3 weeks there instead of splitting with with Cambodia. Burma is of interest, but not right now.

We welcome any feedback that you have. Thank you.

Back in 2002 I went overland from PP to Siem Reap with an Intrepid tour group. An abridged account:

"We started fast, powering up the Mekong on the Kratie ferry. ... We left the ferry at Kompong Cham. ... We spent a hot afternoon wandering around the Wat Nokor complex, where a brightly painted modern temple had been built incongruously inside the sandstone and laterite walls of an 11th century shrine. ... As the day cooled towards evening, we rode motos an hour each way to Wat Hanchey, a more sensitive amalgam of old and new temples spread around a hill with wide views over the Mekong ...

Next morning we settled into a comfortable minibus for the drive to Kompong Thom ... [An] endurance test awaited us at Phnom Suntok, where 980 stairs separated us from the hilltop shrines. ... The shrines, images and immense Buddha footprints, not to mention the views over the flat countryside, were worth the climb, but getting down was almost worse than going up ...

The highlight of the day was Sambor Prei Kuk, where thin forest has grown around and over some of the oldest temples in the country, dedicated to Shiva and dating to the seventh century. A few buildings were more tree root than brick, the tree's clasp seeming almost protective. The late afternoon sun lit carved lintels and guardian lions: hefty hindquarters and bared teeth offset by the ringlets that formed their manes. We had the site to ourselves, and again I was conscious of emptiness: the priests and people who once worshipped here were very long gone."

From Siem Reap we took a boat to Battambang, but I get bored on boats and don't know that I would recommend it. Traveling in Cambodia on my own I took a car and driver from Siem Reap to the Thai border and a train to Bangkok. I am not a fan of Thailand and might stay in BKK and do day trips - bus and boat to Ayutthaya, train to Kanchanaburi.

Will be interested to hear how the high speed train to LP works out if you do that. I really enjoyed the drive on my first visit, but it did take all day and after that I'm afraid I flew.

I would add another night in Phnom Penh. It is one of may favourite Asian cities and warrants at least two full days even without the Palace and Pagoda. Tuol Sleng, Choueng Ek, the central market and Russian market could be fitted into a very full day but would be more enjoyable with a little more time. Plenty of great street food, decent restaurants and Sisowath Quay is great for sundowners.

I have done the trip to SR by boat, car and bus. I would not recommend the boat unless you are very hardy traveller! The boats have a very dodgy safety record, are not comfortable and take a very long time. The time of year can make a huge difference to river levels and consequently the ability of boats to sail all the way. Take a boat ride or trip on the Tonle Sap from Siem Reap to some of the more remote floating villages - much nicer.

One time we stopped off in Battambang for a few days en route. It deserves more than just an overnight stop as there are some interesting caves and temple complexes out in the countryside - seehttps://accidentalnomads.com/2015/06/12/battambang/ for some photos and detail.

Last time in Chiang Mai we had to leave because the smoke pollution was so bad but that is very dependent upon the time of year - don't even think of going from mid march to May. It has a huge array of temples within the square kilometre of the old town, Doi Suthep is worth a look but after that I would want to move on, possibly to the countryside , possibly Chiang Rai, smaller and less crowded and the n=best walking market in Thailand! If you did go to Laos I would suggest Chiang Mai to Chiang Rai/ Chiang Khong and then get a boat down to Luang Prabang with and overnight stop in Pakse. Easier than flying!

I think you would be disappointed with Sukothai after Angkor unless you are REALLY into temples. If you are happy driving in Thailand then one option from Chiang Mai would be to rent a car and drive the Mai Hong Sorn Loop. Some temples but mostly about the scenery and cultural experience of the minority peoples villages.

Southern Laos is very different from the North. The north is mountainous and very beautiful. you would need a car and drive or a tour. but I would consider a circuit from Luang Prabang. Perhaps Lunag Namtha, Muang Sing , Phongsali. It is really out of the way so don't expect great hotels, but so worth it! Alternatively, from LP you could stop off at Vang Vieng en route to Vientiane. Then use Pakse as a jumping of point for the Bolavens Plateau, Si phan don and Wat Po.

Sorry if this adds further confusion. I am suffering with that myself at present, trying to nail down our itinerary for Australia and Vietnam next month. Time is fast running out!

Finally, you are correct that Vietnam warrants the whole three weeks BUT, I do feel that Southern Vietnam i.e, Saigon and the Mekong Delta would work exceptionally well with the Cambodian section, should Laos flight not resume. 3-4 night in the delta from Phnom Penh followed by the same in Saigon would be a great way to end your trip IMHO.

Thanks again, Thursdaysd and Crellston. The information on Cambodia is particularly helpful. Assigning 3 nights to Phnom Penh it is. Will check out Phnom Suntok and Sambor Prei Kuk as potential places to break up our Phnom Penh to Siem Reap journey overland. Will also look into 2-3 nights in Battambang.

On Thailand, I will look at some of the areas further afield around Chiang Mai. We could skip Sukhothai. Another option is to start in Thailand so we would visit Sukhothai before we get to Angkor but we are trying to avoid all the issues that Bangkok's hosting of APEC may cause. We plan on landing on Nov. 19, when world leaders are expected to be gathering. By going to Cambodia first, we assume we will avoid most of it a week later.

If more flights open up in Laos, seems like the areas around Pakse and Luang Prabang and further afield will have plenty to keep us busy that we may not want to add more.

And crellston, let me know if I can be helpful with Australia. It's someplace I've been again and again over the years and may be able to offer some advice. In fact, I'm looking at Australia simultaneously as I am considering Southeast Asia, as well as a couple other places in Europe and the Middle East. With COVID, just don't know what will come together.

You are welcome tripplanner.

November is a great time for Northern Thailand and Laos. Beginning of the cool dry season and still pretty green. The burning of the fields and forest wont start for several months so no problems with the smoke.

The "Mai Hong Sorn Loop" is a great drive around Northern Thailand from Chiang Mai stopping at Pai, Soppong, Mai Hong Sorn, Mai Sariang and back to Chiang Mai via Doi Inthanon NP. It is a wonderful drive along curving mountain roads with some great scenery - https://www.travelfish.org/trip_plan...-hong-son-loop Despite the mountain roads it is a pretty easy drive.

Hi TP -- you've gotten some great advice. We used a fabulous guide in Chiang Rai and he also does Chiang Mai. His name is Jermsak and I may have contact infor for him in on our TR 10 years or so ago now. https://www.fodors.com/community/asi...dyssey-930204/ Have a great trip!

Thanks again crellston and thank you yestravel. Appreciate the reports and photos. Given that this will be our first time in northern Thailand, we'll need to be selective and sample and then leave places for future visits. Knowing that it is easy to combine with Laos helps us think about it some if we don't wind up going there this time around.

Thanks so much for this information! We are traveling in September--that is set due to an opening in our work schedules. Would you still travel to Thailand since it is the monsoon season? Or reroute to another country?

Noi wouldn't. In September I would be looking to parts of Indonesia, Borneo or maybe South Korea towards the end of September. Cambodia can also be nice in Sept if you don't mind the odd downpour. The benefit of travelling in the monsoon season is though you may miss the blue skies, you will also miss the crowds and the scenery is a lot greener.

Let me chime in and agree with Yestravels suggestion of Chiang Rai and the guide Jermsak. Floating on a raft downriver while being fed chicken cooked over charcoal was seriously good.
We followed in her TR footsteps with boat ride from Chiang Khong to Luang Prabang and enjoyed it very much.
Also agree with Crellstons suggestion for Phnom Penh. It is a vibrant city with great food options, we did a fascinating architectural walk there. The central market is not to be missed architecture wise, the vendors not so much. There are some TRs here under my name.

Sartoric, hi! It's been a minute since I'm seen you here. Hope all is well with you.

As far as the Cambodia and Thailand version of our itinerary, the one that still seems most likely at the moment, we've now identified areas of interest and will try to narrow down in the coming days and weeks - always the hardest part.

We've now grouped our potential itinerary into three clusters: Cambodia, northern Thailand, and the Bangkok area. The current thinking allocates 8 nights to Cambodia, split between Phnom Penh and Siem Reap, 3 and 5. This means we will need to forgo Battambang, Katie, and the Kampot / Kep area. We could fill all our time in Cambodia, I suppose. Just have to come back for the rest and perhaps in a future combination with Laos.

We're currently looking at 5 nights in Bangkok at the end if the trip. This will give us time in the city and 1 to 2 day trips. Ayutthaya is of interest as is Kaschanaburi.

This leaves the hardest portion of the trip: northern Thailand. Lampang grabs our attention with the Sky Temple and Sukhothai for the many Buddha statues. Based on the feedback here, seems like it may not be worth too much time in Chiang Mai although I assume we will pass through there at some point. Pai, Mae Hong Son, and Chiang Rai all pique our curiosity and interest for the opportunity to experience some village life among tribes, be outdoors, and perhaps do some hiking. With the limited time, we know we will need to eliminate at least half of this. Always the hard part. At least it's taking some shape.

Another vote for Jermsak! We traveled in 2014 and hired him for 3 days. He was a wide full companion and the ride on the raft was a definite highlight of our trip. One of the places we visited was a small town in the northwestern region of the Chiang Rai province, Mae Salong, which was settled by the Kuomintang and really feels like an outpost of China. The town is known for its tribal market and the region has wonderful tea plantations. We also stopped into the Doi Tung Royal Gardens. Of course, a stop in Chiang Rai means visiting the very popular White Temple, though our favorite was the fantastic Black House, a compound of houses built by a renowned artist which are built in a traditional Thai style but filled with a wide range of primitive art. The effect is strange but oddly serene. We loved it.

We did stay several days in Chiang Mai, which we enjoyed a lot, especially after visiting hectic Bangkok. If you enjoy temples, Chiang Mai is rich in them!

Another highlight was a 2-day boat trip down the Mekong River, ending in Luang Prabang. We absolutely loved LP. Many folks bemoan how it has become too touristed, but since we had nothing to compare it to, all I can say is it’s lovely. We didn’t travel to other parts of Laos, so I can’t compare, but for a brief taste, we did find it special.

We did visit several tribal areas and I must admit that I have a great deal of ambivalence about doing so - after the fact, of course. There is a sense of being a voyeur and, at the same time, being caught up in a subtle dance of being obligated to shop. I’m still not sure what’s the ideal relationship.

Anyway, there’s only so many places to visit, and you have to make hard choices for a brief trip, but I thought I’d add my own comments.

Here’s my trip report, too..
https://www.fodors.com/community/asi...1005980/page5/

Thanks Progol. Just read through your report. I am looking at the same amount of time and understanding how you distributed it is particularly helpful. But you're right that narrowing down is the hardest part - you want to go everywhere but doing too much risks not spending enough time anywhere to really enjoy a place. Will look up Jermsak.

Hi, tripplanner,

I don’t think Jermsak has a website anymore, but you can confirm him by email:
[email protected]

I hope you get a chance to meet him - he’s a lovely man and very dedicated to his community.

Thanks progol. Will definitely reach out as we have a better sense of our plans.

With your help and additional research, we have a Cambodia and Thailand itinerary that would satisfy us given our interests in Angkor, Buddhist temples and ruins, history, culture, variety of landscapes, and perhaps some outdoors. Our only problem: this current version comes out to 25 nights and we need to get down to 21. Interested in your feedback on what may be redundant and / or less worthwhile.

Draft itinerary:
Fly into Phnom Penh
Phnom Penh, 3 nights
Travel to Siem Reap using car and driver, stopping at Sambor Prei Kuk
Siem Reap, 5 nights (3 days for Angkor and 1 day for Siem Reap and Tonle Sap)
​​​Fly to Sukhothai or Phitsanulok
Sukhothai, 3 nights
Travel to Lampang using car and driver, stopping at Si Satchanalai
Lampang, 2 nights
Travel to Chiang Rai with car and driver, stopping at Wat Chalermprakiat (Sky Temple)
Chiang Rai, 3 nights (1 for city and another for day trip to Do Mae Salong)
Travel to Chiang Mai by car and driver
Chiang Mai, 4 nights (with one day trip to Doi Inthanon)
Fly to Bangkok
Bangkok, 5 nights (with day trips to Ayutthaya and Kanchanaburi)
Fly home

Thank you again for your continued suggestions and advice. I will come back with similar questions regarding Laos when we flush that option out.

I would drop a night from Sukhothai and from Chiang Mai, and two from Bangkok, but I've already indicated I'm not a big fan of Thailand. And definitely not of Bangkok.

A couple of observations…
If your group is up for day and night time activities, much of the vibrancy of Siem Reap can be seen at night. The Tonle Sap lake can be very hit and miss, decide to go based on water levels closer to the time. I’d cut a night from Siem Reap.
In 5 trips to Thailand, I haven’t been to Sukhothai or Lampang. Can you consolidate and save a night between the two ?
I reckon there’s a night to be saved in Chiang Mai. No doubt there are fabulous temples, street markets and interesting museums (museum of insects, quirky and fabulous), but it’s pretty compact.. Easily walkable.
I wasn’t too inspired by Doi Inthanon. Hope you like it more.
Bangkok is also not my favourite city (Thursdayd) so I’d easily cut another night here. I have spent several weeks in Bangkok over time, so have seen many of the major sights. If you haven’t been to Bangkok before that amount of time seems about right.
Continuing good wishes for your trip planning, I can’t wait to read about the journey when it happens.

I would cut a night from CM (like Satroic I wasnt wowed by Doi Inthanon) and I night from SR. I love BKK and find it endlessly fascinating. We've been a couple times and stayed a week each time. Ihavent been to Sukhotha, Lampang or Phnom Penh.

Hope you have a great trip!

As always, thanks for the feedback, everyone. The general feeling seems to be to shave nights from various places. We're considering cutting out a place too.

Yestravel and Sartoric, based on both of your responses, we will cut out Doi Inthanon. The appeal is that it is outdoors and offers a chance for hiking, but we could do that elsewhere. For our days in Chiang Mai, would you recommend sticking in and around the city or venturing further and if so where? We've looked at Mae Hong Son but the loop may take more time than we have.

Thursdaysd, is there something particular for your dislike of Thailand? What I didn't care for on my first visit was the crowds, but it seems less so now, which is driving my timing. Or do you just thinking other countries are more interesting? I'm looking at a Cambodia and Laos alternative too, but haven't spend as much time on it given that flights still seem to be non-existent. I would love to go to Burma, but that one seems to be off limits, at least for me, for a while.

>> If you haven’t been to Bangkok before that amount of time seems about right.

I agree. I think I spent 6 nights there and had the same two day trips. Took the train to/ffrom Ayutthaya which was an interesting experience. Hired a tuk tuk when I got there. It was a good day though a bit tough due to the heat and sun (earlt January). The trip to Kanchanaburi included another stop. I think it was a floating market which some people loved but I thought was just way too touristy.

We used to have several Thailand fans, Bangkok in particular, on this forum. I think it was Kathy who was always advising people to slow down when they visit Southeast Asia.

Am not a 'go slow' person, i.e. tend to move around a bit, so that amount of time in Bangkok was extra long for me to spend in one place. And it was worthwhile. The first day or two was partly about recovering from the time change and long trip (was in international first class - didn't sleep much on US-Tokyo leg on ANA and couldn;t stay awake on the also wonderful Thai Airways flight from TYO to BKK with a late night arrival).

Your first stop, in PP, could serve as some travel recovery time. I did not visit there because visiting Angkor was the whole reason for stopping in Cambodia. It was three nights. It was a nice hotel and I didn't bother to go into SR (couldn't imagine that it would be anything other than an over touristy town for buying trinkets or partying, not for me)..You could cut a night from Siem Reap, as suggested above. I suggest just cutting PP out completely and just fly to REP. That would save three nights. You could add one to your stay in SR just to chill after what I assume is a long-long trip (or not and just keep the 5 nights you have - I think Kathy would advise at least a week there).

You can cut from CM and probably CR. Just noticed that your OP said you have been to Bangkok before, so that could also be trimmed.

My trip was in 2004, arriving in Thailand the day after the tsunami.

If you wanted to cut out a destination rather than trim nights from a number of destinations, then I would take another look at Sukothai and Lampang, neither of which would be high on my list of places to visit in Thailand. That shaves off more days than you need. If you wanted to save a few more days then I would lose a day from Chiang Mai and possibly another from Bangkok. That would reduce your time by around a week and open up other possibilities for alternative locations.

Like Thursdaysd, I am not a huge fan of Thailand these days ( though I do like Bangkok) and would likely use those days in Cambodia and include a few days exploring Kampot and Kep or maybe add a few days in Battamabang en route from PP to SR. Or, perhaps just a simple trip to Laos a few days in Luang Prabang from Bangkok would be great. Flights do seem to be available now but if not you could consider going by train from Thailand to Vientiane and making it a two centre visit.

Thailand was my first SEA country, back in the 90s after a trip to China. I have been back since, especially to Bangkok, which is such a transport hub it's hard to avoid, but I have found the rest of SEA more interesting. BKK especially is so big, so crowded, so noisy, so polluted, that I much prefer to spend my time elsewhere, there's no shortage of options. Do stay on the river and use water transport when possible.

I would guard against allowing too little time for Angkor, which is a huge site. My first visit was three nights, and I felt it was too short and went back for several more nights. I recommend getting a copy of Dawn Rooney's book and deciding what attracts you. However, I was last there in 2004, I doubt very much I would recognize Siem Reap today. (I, too, arrived in Bangkok right after the tsunami, but it was overland from Laos. I had very fortunately decided to spend Christmas in Laos instead of on a Thai island....)

>> Dawn Rooney's book
Ah, maybe it was thursdaysd, not Kathy, who would advise more time for AW (and bring up that book) Pretty sure Kathy was the "slow down" person, but that was a kind of common theme among the SEA travelers.

An alternative view on time at Angkor. I think three days is enough for the majority of people. The received wisdom is to visit the temples early morning and late afternoon and then retire back to the hotel for the heat of midday. However, the last time we were there was to take my wife’s parents for their 50th wedding anniversary trip. They were short on time so we just stayed out the whole day and saw way more than we would have done popping back for the middle part of the day. A good guide is essential to make the best of your time there. They will be able to dodge the crowds at the major sites by picking the right time. Should be a lot easier with absence of the Chinese tour groups who sadly, I have never found to be the most well behaved or polite tourists

As for Tonle Sap, you will now have to go some way out to find somewhere relatively untouristy these days. The drop in levels of teh water system due to Chinese damming upstream on the Mekong is seriously affecting all waterways in the region.

A few more pieces of food for thought. Thank you again.

Mrwunrfl, you're absolutely right about Kathie being a proponent of slowing down. One thing we have in common is our interest in Buddhist temples. Hope she and Cheryl are doing well these days; been a minute since I've seen here around here.

Thursdaysd, thanks for the mention of Dawn Rooney's book. I recall having come across it but it slipped my mind. Will grab a copy if it's still around.

Crellston, is there a village on Tonle Sap you would recommend? I wonder if the water levels are such that we should skip altogether. Perhaps we won't know until after the monsoon rains.

Sorry, I can’t recall the names of the villages we visited, or even if I knew them in the first place! They were however quite some way from Siem Reap. I would definitely avoid Ching Kneas which is the nearest village to SR.

i would strongly recommend a visit to Artisans d’Angkor. They have the most amazing handicrafts for sale there.

I have to say I agree with crellston on the time to spend at AW. Like he did, we went lunch time into the afternoon, it wasnt crowded and it was fine. We did spend other days at other sites which I actually enjoyed some of more than AW. And I was so looking forward to AW.

Do you mean you were disappointed with the specific temple of Angkor Wat, or the 77 square mile site as a whole?

It's fun to see some old friends on this thread. I haven't been on Fodors much lately.

Tripplanner, knowing your love of Buddhist temples, This will be a wonderful trip for you! I do love Bangkok, and we always find "new" temples to visit. I'm not a big fan of CM, but it is certainly worth a stop, and it has plenty of temples to visit.

Sadly, the place I would most recommend is not a place to visit now - Burma.

Kathie! Hope you and Cheryl are doing well. Any of the "new" Buddhist temples in Bangkok you would recommend?