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Please help me plan a month in Cambodia and Laos
Warning: LONG post ahead!!!
I’m planning a trip of about a month to Cambodia and Laos for this coming May, and I can definitely use some help! Although I’ve begun my research, I would like to take advantage of your expertise by getting your input sooner, rather than later. (BTW, many thanks to all of you who have posted trip reports or contributed to planning threads over the last few years – I’ve found them extremely useful! If I’ve missed your trip report, please link it in. :) ) Time frame: I’m likely to spend about 30 or so days starting in May and extending, as necessary (depending on exact times) into the beginning of June. I could start a bit earlier, in April, if that would be better. I understand that there are some disadvantages to traveling to these areas at this time of year, but hope that the advantages balance them out. Thanks again for the input already provided about this timing: https://www.fodors.com/community/asi...n-may-1674451/ About me, my interests, and preferences:·
First attempt at an itinerary:
Questions: I will have more, but for now: 1. How to better arrange, adjust, tweak, drastically reconsider, or otherwise modify this initial itinerary? 1a. I think I would like to begin in Luang Prabang if I can (it sounds like a pleasant place to recover from jet lag) and to end in Siem Reap (not only because I think of the temples of Angkor as the high point of this trip, but also because I expect to buy all the gifts I give to family and friends in that city). That said, I’m not averse to considering alternative routings if there are benefits to doing so. 1b. Many of the travel times I’ve identified seem daunting. Any suggestions for a more efficient routing will be much appreciated! 1c. I’ve opted to skip Laos’s Plane of Jars (too far for too little to see under conditions too precarious), even though I love seeing archeological sites of this sort. Does anyone care to convince me to include it? 1d. Are there better ways to incorporate Sambor Prie Kuk and Prehah Vihear in my plan? 2. Are there better ways to fit this (or a similar) itinerary around the likely shift from dry to wet season? 2a. Just a reminder: I’d like to start in Luang Prabang and end in Siem Reap. I think that would give me the greatest chance, for this time of year, of seeing water in the moats of the Angkor temples? Again, I’ll reconsider if it makes most senset to do so. 2b. I think the rainy season begins earlier in Laos? And therefore that there is a chance that some of the waterfalls in Laos won’t be just dribbles and that transport along waterways is possible? i. Can I assume that there will be at least some water falling at the Kuang Si Falls, even if the dry season lasts longer than usual? ii. Am I likely to find a way to travel by water from Si Phan Don to Kratie at that time of year? 2c. I’ve read inconsistent remarks about seeing Cambodia’s floating villages around the time of the transition from the dry to the rainy season – some say it isn’t worth trying to see these villages at the end of the dry season, when there may be no water; others say it’s a wonderful time to see them, as one can see how much the water matters. i. Thoughts? ii. As a corollary: Should I consider visiting Kompong Chhnang rather than the villages of Tonle Sap? 3. Transportation options 3a. I believe there are night buses along some of the routes I’m considering – should I consider taking them rather than daytime options? 3a.i. Are there views that I wouldn’t want to miss by traveling at night? 3a.ii. Are the night buses safe (meaning both road safety and safety for solo women travelers)? 3a.iii. Are there specific bus companies that I should, or should not, consider? 3b. I believe several airlines provide options for flying from Vientiane to Pakse – are there options that you recommend, or conversely, that you would suggest I might consider avoiding? 4. Holidays: How might the following holidays impact my trip, for better or worse? 4a. King Sihamoni's Birthday (May 13 - 15) 4b. Visak Bochea (May 18) 4c. National Day of Remembrance (May 20) 4d. Royal Ploughing Ceremony (May 22) 4e. International Chidren's Day (June 1) 5. Looks like travelfish might be a useful resource – thoughts? Many, many thanks in advance for any and all comments! |
You are planning a wonderful trip! As you probably know, I always recommend Dawn Rooney's book, Angkor: A Guide to Cambodia's Wondrous Temples for those headed to Siem Reap. I read Stalking the Elephants Kings before going to Luang Prabang, and I felt like I should know all of the townspeople I encountered.
We did not use guides at Angkor, but used Dawn Rooney's book instead. Our drivers were invaluable in getting us to temples that were not overrun - I expect that is harder now than it was in 2001. Have a fabulous time! |
1. How to better arrange, adjust, tweak, drastically reconsider, or otherwise modify this initial itinerary? I favour a drastic reconsideration. I have done a very similar trip albeit quite some years ago and can appreciate why you have set out this route but I do think it could be improved. although my interests would be different from yours. I prefer the far north of Laos for its incredible scenery and minority peoples village and would maybe include a loop from LP visiting Muang Sing, Luang Namtha, Phongsali and some smaller villages etc. Was Phu will only take a couple of hours and can be incorporated in the journey from Pakse to Si Phan Don. I would also highly recommend a foray into the Bolavens Plateau along that route. Pakse is no great shakes and is really only a staging post.
1a. I think I would like to begin in Luang Prabang if I can (it sounds like a pleasant place to recover from jet lag) and to end in Siem Reap (not only because I think of the temples of Angkor as the high point of this trip, but also because I expect to buy all the gifts I give to family and friends in that city). That said, I’m not averse to considering alternative routings if there are benefits to doing so. There are no direct flights to LP but Emirates do fly into Phnom Penh which might be more convenient. Flights into LP always seem v. expensive. many more options to PP and SR 1b. Many of the travel times I’ve identified seem daunting. Any suggestions for a more efficient routing will be much appreciated! Travel in both Laos and Cambodia is indeed daunting. The trip from Si Phan Don to Kratie was the second most convoluted trip I have ever taken. don’t expect to get on a boat or bus and travel form one to the other. I think I used three boats and three buses and took an entire day. In some cases, opting for a car plus driver rather than buses can be a worthwhile investment. 1c. I’ve opted to skip Laos’s Plane of Jars (too far for too little to see under conditions too precarious), even though I love seeing archeological sites of this sort. Does anyone care to convince me to include it? A good move, a log way to go and, IMO, it isn’t that impressive. 1d. Are there better ways to incorporate Sambor Prie Kuk and Prehah Vihear in my plan? Probably not. No Koh Ker? 2. Are there better ways to fit this (or a similar) itinerary around the likely shift from dry to wet season? It is increasing difficult to predict the monsoons in the region and I don’t think it is really going to make that much difference. The only thing I would mention is that the burning season can sometimes extend to late April and tends to affect Lao more than Cambodia. We had to leave LP one year in April because the air quality was so bad. it shouldn’t however extend into May 2a. Just a reminder: I’d like to start in Luang Prabang and end in Siem Reap. I think that would give me the greatest chance, for this time of year, of seeing water in the moats of the Angkor temples? Again, I’ll reconsider if it makes most senset to do so. It may well do. I just looked at my photos from previous visits in Jan and April and the moats were full both times 2b. I think the rainy season begins earlier in Laos? And therefore that there is a chance that some of the waterfalls in Laos won’t be just dribbles and that transport along waterways is possible? The best waterfalls I saw were in the Bolavens Plateau. Kuang Si tend to be blue water in the dry season with the risk of an unimpressive flow. in the rainy season the increased flow is more impressive but teh water can be a muddy brown. i. Can I assume that there will be at least some water falling at the Kuang Si Falls, even if the dry season lasts longer than usual? With the Chinese building dams all along the Mekong, I don’t think you can assume anything. t ii. Am I likely to find a way to travel by water from Si Phan Don to Kratie at that time of year? See my previous comments 2c. I’ve read inconsistent remarks about seeing Cambodia’s floating villages around the time of the transition from the dry to the rainy season – some say it isn’t worth trying to see these villages at the end of the dry season, when there may be no water; others say it’s a wonderful time to see them, as one can see how much the water matters. i. Thoughts? I visited couple of times during the dry season. the first time was the village close to SR which fine but is now I believe overrun with tour groups. Better to get further away to experience something a little more unspoiled. ii. As a corollary: Should I consider visiting Kompong Chhnang rather than the villages of Tonle Sap? If you can work it into your itinerary yes. 3. Transportation options 3a. I believe there are night buses along some of the routes I’m considering – should I consider taking them rather than daytime options? You couldn’t pay me to take a night bus in either Cambodia or Laos! 3a.i. Are there views that I wouldn’t want to miss by traveling at night? See above 3a.ii. Are the night buses safe (meaning both road safety and safety for solo women travelers)? I don’t think solo women travellers faces anymore issues in SEA than other travellers. Drivers in both countries have a habit of speeding (both road speed and amphetamines) especially at night. This, combined with appalling driving standards and livestock in the roads lead to a high incidence of RTAs. Buses between LP and Vang Vieng used to have a reputation for armed holdups but I think this is now resolved. 3a.iii. Are there specific bus companies that I should, or should not, consider? Giant Ibis in Cambodia have good reputation and I used Mekong Express a few times and they were very good. Go for the best and biggest you can. the backpacker minibuses are truly dire. 3b. I believe several airlines provide options for flying from Vientiane to Pakse – are there options that you recommend, or conversely, that you would suggest I might consider avoiding? 4. Holidays: How might the following holidays impact my trip, for better or worse? I doubt these will have any effect one way or another but teh Royal Ploughing Ceremony is suppose to be fun. 4a. King Sihamoni's Birthday (May 13 - 15) 4b. Visak Bochea (May 18) 4c. National Day of Remembrance (May 20) 4d. Royal Ploughing Ceremony (May 22) 4e. International Chidren's Day (June 1) 5. Looks like travelfish might be a useful resource – thoughts? The best and most current resource. it may be worth paying for the annual memberships which provides significantly greater resources. |
A few additional thoughts on your itinerary:
1. I would think again about travelling from Kampot to Battambang. It is a hell of a journey in one day. Maybe spend an extra night in PP en route. there is apparently now a train between PP and Kampot operating on certain days of the week which would be fun. I would stay in Kampot for the entire time and just visit Kep as a day trip by tut tuk. some nice spots to visit along the way - see the 3rd oct on our blog @ https://accidentalnomads.com/category/cambodia/ 2. I know you are a temple junkie but even so, I do think 10 days is a long time for Siem Reap. You "travel HARD” so you should be able to cover much of what is on your list in less time than most. Many suggest 3-5 days for Angkor's temples but most will do this by visiting in the early morning and late afternoon, adjourning to the cool of their hotels for lunch and a siesta. I you are not going to that you can see more in less time. You just need to find a guide and driver that can keep up with your pace! Indeed the key to a successful visit is to source a great guide and driver. Some are much better than others. our last one just repeated everything she had learned at guide training school by rote.After a while it became more than a little tedious. The general principle is that you hire them by the day and they are at your disposal for the entire day at a fixed rate. There may be additional charges for outlying temples. 3. If you do decide to include far northern Laos, I would probably suggest going with a guide and driver. 4. I would want an extra night in Kampot. There is a lot to see and with just two full days, I don’t think you will do it justice. 5. The same with PP, although I would definitely add a night there en route from Kampot to Battamabang. It is two hours and $40 by car and even an extra half day there would allow you time for some of the other less visited sites. Again, in PP, I would hire a tuk tuk driver by the day to take you around. The Mekong Express minibus is a pretty good way to get to Battambang. |
@ Kathie: On your recommendation, I bought Dawn Rooney's book as soon as I started thinking about a visit to Cambodia :) and just now, upon reading your post, I ordered a copy of Christopher Kremmer's book. It's helpful to know that you didn't feel the need for a guide at Angkor. I might hire one just for a day or so if I think it will substantially enhance my experience. I have full confidence that I'm going to love my time there, whether with a guide or not. ... @ crellston: OMG, what a wealth of information! You've given me a LOT to think about -- and that's exactly what I wanted at this point in my planning. :yay: As I understand it, the most substantial changes you are suggesting to my proposed itinerary would involve adding time to northern Laos and the Bolavens Plateau, taking the time from what I proposed for Siem Reap (with a few tweaks to timing in other locations). Is that a fair summation? I will definitely look into that -- I had thought I would enjoy the minority villages and scenery, but didn't think I'd have time. Can I assume from your comment about a car & driver for the northern Laotian villages that you are describing a day-trip option, or were you thinking of hiring someone for a multi-day trip? BTW, you raise a good point about my time at the Angkor temples -- as long as I can find drivers who realize that I will not want a midday break, I should be able to fit more into each day that some might. I haven't reached out to them yet, but I think you previously recommended working with 7 Candles to arrange drivers? I'd be willing to pay a bit more to support a worthy cause, assuming their recommendations would be good ones. Stopping at Wat Phu en route makes a lot of sense -- if I have a safe place for my suitcase while there. Or is that another trip you think best accomplished with hired car & driver? I've read your references to that convoluted trip from Si Phan Don to Kratie, and it definitely gave me pause -- but also assured me that it would, in fact, be possible. That said, I certainly don't relish a trip as complicated as the one you took, so hiring a car and driver would definitely make sense for that leg. Do you think I could hire someone who could take me the entire way, or would I have to get to the border in one vehicle and then change to another after crossing? Koh Ker is definitely part of my plan as a day trip from Siem Reap; I just forgot to mention it by name. I'm so glad you saw water in the moats at Angkor in April! :) But good point about the impact of dams on the waterways. :( And I appreciate your thoughts on the floating villages -- sounds like I have some options, despite the time of year. As for transportation, note taken: No night buses! And when possible during the day, Giant Ibis or Mekong Express. I'm glad to know that travelfish is as good as I've read. I'll join this weekend. I didn't identify a way to get from Kampot to Battambang without going through Phnom Penh, so I think my options would be to stop there for a night, as you suggest, or just bite the bullet and go on through, and I think I'll make my choice based on how easy or hard the connections seem. (Perhaps I should say: how hard vs. nearly impossible? Almost none of my connections seem easy!) Although I realize I can visit Kep from Kampot, I love crab and don't eat lunch, so am thinking I might want a night in Kep. And I think that would be the only place where I'd actually be on the sea, rather than on a river. Fortunately, I don't mind relocating with frequency when it suits my purposes. ;) So many options! So much to see and experience! Many, many thanks for taking the time to share your insights. :star: :star: :star: |
I haven’t much to add, except we did manage Battambang to Kampot in one rather long day without going through PP. it was a 2 hour drive to SR, short flight to Sihonoukville, then 1 hour drive to Kampot. I highly recommend taking a boat from Kampot to Kep. I spent a lot of time planning more extensive travels in Laos, in the end I gave up knowing that we don’t handle bus rides of more than a few hours. Good luck and I’ll be interested to read your report. |
I have nothing to add, you're getting great advice. I will look forward to your TR as we toy with the idea of doing a similar, slower paced, of course, trip.�� Happy planning!
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@ sartoric: That's an interesting option for getting between Battambang and Kampot -- thanks! And I'll definitely aim for a boat from Kampot to Kep. :)
@ yestravel: I am getting some great advice, aren't I? I'm lucky to travel at all, let alone to do so with the benefit of experienced travelers like Kathie, crellson, sartoric, and (of course) you and gottravel. :star: |
I have only been to four of the cities you have mentioned, so I thought I could help a bit by giving you some insight into each of those:
1. Vientiane - I am glad you are visiting there. I was there for two nights, which encompassed 1 1/2 days of sightseeing. The city is a nice mix of traditional and a little trendy. There were not too many tourists there. I especially liked the riverfront area. On both nights I was there, I participated in a fun aerobics class right on the waterfront. The ladies all wear the same color workout clothes depending on the day of the week. There was also some sort of performance center, but I missed going. I know you like performing arts, so check it out. Oh, that's right, there was a land mine museum that was interesting, but sad. 2. Luang Pragang - There have been debates here about its merits. I was there in 2012, and I found it to be way too touristy for my tastes. I was there for four nights, which was a big mistake. I saw the whole town in one long day, and after that, I took a ferry across the river to see the temples and caves over there. On another day, I walked to the newer part of town where few tourists were. I also took a day trip with an agency to the waterfall, with a hike included. I enjoyed it. 3. Battambang - I mentioned to you in your previous post what I did there. I am going to remind you to plan your days so that you can see the circus there. Regarding taking a bus to Siem Reap, I would like to suggest a private car, which is what I did. I think it cost about $30, and took three hours or so. I met some people that were taking the boat, which sounded fun. I believe that it's a much shorter ride one way than the other, but I cannot remember which way the current goes. 4. Angkor Watt - That's quite a bit of time there. The crowds in the middle of the day are so bad, mostly tour groups. I recommend getting out early to see the sunrise, and then doing quite a bit of temple hopping until the crowds come out. Then, I would start again in the late afternoon and see the sunset. I am already looking forward to reading your trip report next summer. I don't drink much, but this will require some sort of drink with an little umbrella in it while I read. |
And yes, I used Travelfish extensively in my planning. I wish they covered more places.
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@ CaliforniaLady: Thanks for sharing your perspectives! I'm glad to know that you have positive things to say about Vientiane. As I read through trip reports and planning threads, I was surprised by an impression that not many Fodorites like it. Even so, I want to see it for exactly the kinds of things you mention. (Those aerobics classes sound fun! I love that you joined in. :) ) I will definitely check out it's performing arts, which would provide a nice reprieve after the land mine museum. I am aware the Luang Prabang has been overrun by tourists in recent years, but again, I want to see it! I'm hoping that it will be a little less crowded in May than at other times. My current plan would, I think, give me a relatively relaxed day for the town and a day for the Kuang Si Waterfalls (probably the ones you visited), and maybe a bit of the area across the river; I thought it might be a good place to recover from jet lag and begin to acclimate to the region. The circus in Battambang has been on my "must-see" list since you mentioned it -- it sounds like something I'm really going to enjoy. :) I'll consider hiring a car and driver to get to Siem Reap, but if the water is high enough that boats are running, that'll probably be my choice. Timing for Angkor Wat will be a challenge, I'm sure! I've definitely heard the wisdom you are sharing -- go early and late. But I've heard that most tourists leave during the lunch hour, so if one can bear the heat, it sounds like that can be a reasonable option -- particularly for someone like me, because I don't eat a midday meal. For at least some days, I'll probably aim to be at a temple when it opens, leave for a different temple when the mobs arrive, visiting that one during the midday "break" and then move on to a third when the masses return, and spend the rest of the day there. But I have a lot of research to do to plan out some options, and hope to be flexible enough to take the advice of a knowledgeable driver. Thanks again for commenting, for endorsing travelfish, and for your kind words. If a drink with a little umbrella is in our future, better you than me! ;) (I read that Laos is one of the few parts of Asia where one can get decent wine. Bonus!) |
Two things to think about; the flight from Siem Reap to Snookyville is often cancelled. Fine if you are in SR and flexible, not so nice if you have fixed plans.
The boats between Battambang and SR are very unpredictable. I went from SR to B'bang at a time when the waters were medium high. It took about 5 hours, and while very interesting, was pretty uncomfortable, you either sit on top the boat and fry in the sun, or sit on the narrow- and very closely packed- church pew type benches. I'm 5'7" with average length legs and had to sit at an angle the whole way. Take a cushion if you do this! Another Fodorite took the boat when the waters were very high. Their driver got lost, since all the landmarks were under water. It took them over 12 hours. Quite an adventure, but really uncomfortable, especially since there is no where to get more food or water! We opted for a bus on our return. WE left at noon, then about one hour into the trip, we were told to get off the bus and everybody sat on the side of the road for an hour. We were then transferred to PACKED mini-busses for about an hour, and had no idea why. After we passed through some flooded roads, (the heavy buses might have collapsed the roads we were finally told) and we got back on a big bus and did the remainder of the trip in the dark. We had a couple of scares when motorbikes or animals jumped into our path. I am never a fan of night buses, and even with a full dose of Ativan, this was a nail biter. |
@ lcuy: OMG! I'm glad you survived these experiences, but they don't sound like ones that become good stories with the passage of time. :( I admit that these are not the kind of stories I want to hear. They are, however, the ones I need to hear -- so thank you for telling me! Do you think hotel staff be able to tell me, on any given day, which mode of transport would be wisest in light of current conditions?
BTW, "Snookyville" made me laugh. :) |
Re getting a car and driver or a tour. In both Laos and Cambodia this can be a very viable and convenient alternative. It can save a lot of time and will get you to places that would otherwise be very difficult to do by public transport. There are agencies in all the major towns who will be more than willing to help - at a price! It may be better to speak with your Guesthouses to arrange . In both countries, negotiation is the name of the game.
Re Battambang to SR, I really would not bother with the boats. They are uncomfortable, crowded and have been known to capsize. As you are travelling solo, the bus will be the best bet in terms of cost as long as the schedules work for you. If not a car and driver will provide door to door service ( but most guesthouses will pick you up from bus stations for free). Re the revision of your itinerary. Yes, I would definitely add in the far north and Bolavens. But that is based on my interests not yours - I am less of a temple junkie than are you. Both places would be better done with a guide, especially the villages far north where few villagers speak Lao and to communicate you need someone who speaks the many different dialect. Just an observation but I am not sure I would go all the way down to the coast to come back to SR at the end. if it were me I could be considering whether crossing the border via Stung Treng/ SI Phan Don is actually worth the effort in a month long trip. An alternative would be to effectively treat this as two separate trips, a couple of weeks in Lao and a similar amount of time in Cambodia. I assume you will be flying in from the US? If so, to where? Apart from Emirates to Phnom Penh via Dubai, I can’t think of any direct flights into either PP or LP so you would likely have to route through one of the major hubs like Bangkok, KL or SIngapore and get a regional airline maybe flying into LP and out of PP or VV. This would likely have an influence on your itinerary. Maybe fly into LP for a couple of days, a weeks loop north and then to Vientiane via Vang Vieng, a flight to Pakse for Bolavens and Wat Phu and then fly to PP. From PP to Kampot, back to PP and then up to Battambang for a few days before ending you trip in SR. I know you said you were keen to visit Kratie for the dolphins but the chances of seeing them are slim and, when you do, it will likely be only a fleeting glance. That is a long hard couple of days of travelling! Anyway, sorry If this is a bit of a brain dump, I just wanted to respond before we head off to Japan and I need to pack! |
Hi kja - so glad to see you are planning this trip. You say 'this coming May' so that means May 2020? If so that is great for me as I will benefit not only from your planning threads but from your trip report. I'm planning on a trip winter of 2021 - just about a year from now. You are much more adventurous than I am so I'm not planning as many rural areas as you (plus in the same amount of time I want to see some of Vietnam, and possibly Thailand) but I do plan time in both Luang Prabang and Siem Reap. I've seen in some trip reports people went to both an elephant sanctuary and a bear sanctuary close to Luang Prabang. Are you planning on either of those?
Anyway, have fun planning, I'll be following along. |
"Timing for Angkor Wat will be a challenge, I'm sure! I've definitely heard the wisdom you are sharing -- go early and late. But I've heard that most tourists leave during the lunch hour, so if one can bear the heat, it sounds like that can be a reasonable option -- particularly for someone like me, because I don't eat a midday meal. For at least some days, I'll probably aim to be at a temple when it opens, leave for a different temple when the mobs arrive, visiting that one during the midday "break" and then move on to a third when the masses return, and spend the rest of the day there. But I have a lot of research to do to plan out some options, and hope to be flexible enough to take the advice of a knowledgeable driver."
As you may recall from our TR, we took advantage of the lunch hour and went to AW then. I don't remember it being unbearably hot, and it wasn't terribly crowded. It's been a long time since we were there but in general, our driver managed to avoid the crowds at the temples. None were unbearable. Finding a good driver is key. I'm sure you will receive some good recs. |
@ crellson -- again, thank you so much! I'm happy to be the recipient of one of your "brain dumps" any time! Skipping Kratie might be a really good idea! As you say, it'll take a chunk of time to get to and from there, all for a possibility that might not be actualized. I will definitely give some thought to planning a route without it. I am delighted to think that I might be able to include Laos's far north in my plans. It had intrigued me, but I had been under the impression that visiting that region would take days. I love the idea of sampling the region (its scenery and its minority villages) with a day trip from Luang Prabang! And the Bolavens had appealed to me, too -- I do love a good waterfall! -- but had thought it was a region best visited by motorbike, which I won't do. I obviously have some more research to do. And that's why I posted before I became too invested in a plan -- you are proving invaluable as I consider ways to improve it! I haven't checked into flights yet, except to prove to myself that I'm going to have a long trip with at least one stop in each direction. In circumstances like that, I'm willing to consider adding yet another leg to an already miserable experience if it lets me start or end at a place that better suits my purposes. I know that might not work, and that I might have to add a night on either end to include an overnight in Phnom Penh or another major airport. I'll start exploring my options once I have a better sense of my itinerary. A boat from Battambang to Siem Reap is now off my list of options. I don't need to add surviving a capsized boat to my travel adventures -- ack! :omg: BTW, although I can't afford to hire a car and driver (let alone a guide) every day, I am more than happy to hire a car and driver, and a guide, when it will make a big difference to my experience. Before I went to Java, I had thought of those options as a true extravagance, and was delighted to realize that it was actually an affordable option! My understanding is that gentle bargaining is the norm in both Cambodia and Laos, and again, trust that you (or others!) will let me know if not. (And I promise not to bargain too hard when dealing with tuk tuk drivers, or anyone else.) I can't thank you enough for taking the time to share these thoughts before you head out. I hope you and your wife enjoy your stay in Japan, and special wishes for a memorable celebration at Seikoro. :wine: . . . @ isabel: Yes, this trip will be this coming May, just months away! From what little I've read (and it is very little!), the most reputable of the elephant sanctuaries in the region is the Elephant Nature Park in Thailand, so I've decided to wait to visit an elephant sanctuary until I go there. I believe that the Elephant Village near Luang Prabang still allows some limited riding of elephants, and while I understand that there are a number of admirable features of that specific sanctuary, I'd rather wait. There's an elephant sanctuary in Cambodia that I considered, but I decided that it's too far from anything else I'll visit to make it worth including on this particular trip -- unless someone wants to make the case that I should visit it (or any other). Is the bear sanctuary you mention the Tat Kuang Si Bear Rescue Centre? I have it on my list of things to research -- if anyone reading this thread knows anything about it, I'd love to hear your thoughts! . . . @ yestravel: Thanks for confirming that visiting Anghor Wat's temples in the middle of the day can be a way to avoid crowds! |
Looks like you will have a great trip. I don't have much to add, as it has been a while since I was in SEA. I endorse a day or two for Vientiane, and would also spend at least a day in Phnom Penh.
If you arrive in Bangkok you can probably fly to Vientiane for less than Luang Prabang. I like to take the night train from Bangkok to Vientiane, but you probably won't want to take the time. |
@ thursdaysd: Thanks for your comments! I'm glad you also endorse a day or two for Vientane, and am definitely planning a couple of days in Phnom Penh. I normally enjoy decent overnight trains, but am not sure I'd want to face an overnight train after flying cattle class from the U.S. :stress: Thanks for mentioning it, though -- who knows what routing is going to end up making most sense!
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Originally Posted by crellston
(Post 17039859)
I prefer the far north of Laos for its incredible scenery and minority peoples village and would maybe include a loop from LP visiting Muang Sing, Luang Namtha, Phongsali and some smaller villages etc.
Originally Posted by kja
(Post 17040542)
I am delighted to think that I might be able to include Laos's far north in my plans. It had intrigued me, but I had been under the impression that visiting that region would take days. I love the idea of sampling the region (its scenery and its minority villages) with a day trip from Luang Prabang! |
KJa - My fault, I wasn’t very clear! Those places are just a selection of towns and villages you COULD visit. Phonsali for example is a longish way from LP and would make sense on a shorter trip but the likes of Luang Namtha, Muang Ngoi, Muang Sing would proably make a nice shorter trip. oudoxmai, though not of great interest in itself, as I recall is the transport hub for the area. If you are interested, I would check it out with a few operators in LP to see what they could put together for you. As I mentioned before, this is one of the places where, though it is entirely possible to travel solo, a guide would enhance the experience.
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Originally Posted by kja
(Post 17040656)
@ thursdaysd: Thanks for your comments! I'm glad you also endorse a day or two for Vientane, and am definitely planning a couple of days in Phnom Penh. I normally enjoy decent overnight trains, but am not sure I'd want to face an overnight train after flying cattle class from the U.S. :stress: Thanks for mentioning it, though -- who knows what routing is going to end up making most sense!
As you're going to Vientiane, you might think of spending a couple of nights in Nong Khai. Just over the Friendship Bridge from Vientiane. A laid back easy going Frontier town sat right on the Meekong River, perfect for a lazy couple of days. |
The bus rides from LP to Vang Vieng, and Vang Vieng to Vientiane are both very well trodden, the buses are likely to be old and uncomfortable, and perhaps overloaded with passengers sat in the aisle on plastic chairs....the one we got was.
LP to VV winds its way through many a hill and village, with spectacular scenery, If you get travel sickness, this journey will test you. V V to V after the first half an hour is quite boring. Expect the bus compounds to be very busy. We did the trip in the opposite direction, in V we were picked up from our guest house in a truck, and taken to the bus compound where we waited for ages for other vans to turn up with pax. The bus from Kampot might go to PP via Kep, and the advertised timing may easily run into overtime. I wouldn't plan on getting a connecting bus to SR or Battambang the same day. Though you could always get a pre-booked taxi from Kampot direct to PP making onward travel feasible. We did that [without the onward journey], and as well as being very comfortable with a safe considerate driver, the driver was full of interesting stories about the Pol Pot era. The bus ride between Battambang and SR has a stop at some godforsaken hole while the driver feeds his face. So again, anticipate a longer than expected journey. The bus we got, again ferried by van from the guesthouse to a compound for the main bus, came to life as soon as the driver switched on the engine. It brought zillions of mozzies immediately to life, resulting in a lot of banging, zapping and cursing for a long while afterwards. While in Cambodia use Giant Ibis where you can, I don't think they cover all the routes, but in my experience they're well worth the little extra that a ticket costs. Giant Ibis operate from outside their main office just off Sisowath Quay, and not the main coach station in PP. If you stay in Kampot, then a good day out is to hire a tun tun for the day. Arrange to visit a pepper farm, the muslim village, and a fish restaurant by the sea in Kep for lunch....an excellent day out. Make sure you visit the Foreign Correspondents Club on Sisowath Quay for their Happy Hour between 1700-1900, preferably after a day visiting the Killing Fields and S21 Genocide Museum by tuk tuk. The former despite it's name is very tastefully presented, the later is raw. But they are both park of living history in Cambodia, the locals want foreign visitors to see what happened during the Pol Post era. |
@ crellston:
I have a lot to learn and a number of options to explore, but I think one way for me to visit Laos's far north would be to fly to Luang Namtha and use it for a base for even a day (2 nights), but preferably two days (3 nights), and while there, hire a car & driver & (definitely) guide to see some of the local minority villages. If that doesn't seem to work as I pursue my options, I'll look into tour operators out of Luang Prabang, although I must admit that arranging a multi-day solo trip from LP sounds a bit rich for my budget. :( I'm still looking into the Bolavens Plateau. From what I've been reading, the things that most appeal to me are the waterfalls -- which, according to my guidebooks, might be mist-shrouded and difficult to reach once the rainy season starts. It seems that I might be able to try to visit at least one or two waterfalls from Pakse, perhaps even on the same day trip (with car & driver) that would include Wat Phu. My research continues.... Again, many thanks for sharing your wisdom and experience. :) . . . @ LancasterLad: Thanks for adding your voice to this thread! It would seem that you are sharing more stories about public transportation that I don't want to hear, but nevertheless, need to hear. :( One of the things I love about public transportation in foreign countries -- and particularly in non-Western cultures -- is the chance to see people going about their daily lives and interacting with one another more naturally than one might see in other contexts that a tourist might experience. And one of the things I don't like about hiring a car and driver -- no matter how convenient or how informative the driver -- is the sense of moving about in a Westernized "bubble." Despite those reactions, I will definitely want to take advantage of air-conditioned vehicles driven by people who speak English and who can share some of their insights for much of my trip, and it seems that avoiding buses might make sense for many reasons. So thank you for helping me approach my plans more realistically! And for reminding me to make sure I take motion sickness preventatives and treatments with me. I'll take Giant Ibis when I can and consider alternatives when I can't. Maybe I can find a way to satisfy my desire to get a glimpse of local life with just one or two short local buses. ;) A tuk tuk for a day in / around Kampot is definitely on the agenda, and I'd already taken note of the recommendation you've offered numerous Fodorites for a day in Phnom Penh, including a sunsetter at the Foreign Correspondents' Club. :) Difficult as I expect to find them, the Killing Fields and S21 Museum are non-negotiables for me -- I can't imagine going to Cambodia without paying homage to the victims of that horrible era. BTW, it hadn't yet registered with me that any of the villages near Kampot were Muslim -- thanks for making sure I keyed in on that! And do, please, let me know if you have further thoughts about my plans. |
KJA.....thanks for your thoughts on my posting, I agree with all you say, and like you I much prefer to travel along the ground and by public transport. However, where connections are involved, you really need to have a Plan B if you miss your connection. Best way to ease that stress is plan in an overnight stop and continue the following morning.
You'll probably be met and guided by a knowledgeable local man at a Muslim village, which is likely to be quite small. He'll expect a $ or 2 for his efforts. |
@ LancasterLad: Sounds like I'll benefit from not just a plan B, but also a Plan C, Plan D, etc! ;) Ah well, at some point, one just has to sit back and remind oneself that its all part of the adventure -- and to do one's best, when coming up with plans A through Z, to find ways that avoid the options that are particularly unpleasant or uncomfortable. And you are helping me do that, so thanks! In light of all the difficulties that seem to plague many of the transitions I envision, I suspect I'll end up with local buses much less frequently than I might otherwise prefer, just to ensure efficient and timely transits.
And thanks, too, for the heads-up on the norm for acknowledging the services of a guide at the Muslim village near Kampot. IME, it's very helpful to know something about the amount that is perceived as an appreciative acknowledgement, rather than an insulting pittance (on the one hand) or an unearned hand-out (on the other hand)! |
A new and improved itinerary?
I've tried to take the feedback that you have all so generously provided into consideration to develop a revised plan. I admit that I still have research to do -- a lot of it! (I hate when work interferes with my trip planning :( ), but am hoping that this new plan generates another set of constructive comments.
Some notes
Itinerary B(with differences from Itinerary A in purple ink):
a. General comments? b. Is it absurd to think that I could get a sense of, let alone enjoy, the scenery of Vang Vieng with just one night there? c. I realize this would be a long day to visit Si Phan Don as a day trip from Pakse, but think I would like to see this part of Laos. Am I simply being foolish to consider including it as a day trip? Should I only visit it if I can spend at least one night there? 2. What are the best ways to research animal rescue centers? If I visit any, I want to have reasonable confidence that their animals are receiving ethical care, and I know that is not guaranteed! With gratitude for the input already provided, I look forward to further comments and suggestions. :)3. Any observations to share about Lao Airlines? 4. I don't scuba, but am sure I would enjoy an hour or two of snorkeling if easy and safe (as a solo traveler, I don't want to take unnecessary risks with tides, currents, or even distances) -- any recommendations for options while I'm in / near Kampot / Kep? 5. One of my guidebooks recommended a day along route 5 south of Tonle Sap -- thoughts? |
"A day for Siem Reap and its crafts / textile shops (to purchase gifts for family & friends)"
Can't help with your itin, but I wanted to mention that I thought Laos had the nicest textiles. So if you're interested in textiles, definitely look in Laos. We did fly Lao Air way back in 2012 or 2013. It was fine. |
@ yestravel: I do have an interest in textiles, and hope to admire them throughout my time in Cambodia, and perhaps especially, Laos. :star: While I might make some purchases along the way, I've learned to do the majority of my shopping in my last stop, so I don't have to carry things around any more than necessary.
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" do the majority of my shopping in my last stop," I may have already mentioned this but I would head straight to Artisans D’Angkor in Siem Reap. The highest quality of products and all run in an excellent cause. Agree with YT re textiles in Laos. We bought some excellent tapestries from some small producers there and there is (or was) a place run by an American woman who was credited with reviving the Lao textile industry.
I am not sure I understand where you are coming from with your new itinerary. It seems a little strange to head south from LP only to then head back north of LP to Luang Namtha. Maybe the flight routes? I hate backtracking and so would head to LN from LP and probably include some of the smaller towns and villages. The scenery is amazing and the village a great insight into another, rapidly disappearing world. maybe do this on some sort of tour or with a guide as this is where I feel they would be of the most benefit. I know cost is a consideration, as it is for us all, but in low season you could probably do a deal. The scenery in that neck of the woods is way more interesting than SI Phan Don. The latter is much flatter and more about chilling out on the islands for a day or three.There is a huge waterfall down that way which seems to be an interest and of course Wat Phu. It should be possible to incorporate something with Bolavens ( more waterfalls) as well. In your situation I would start by asking a couple of agents in LP to put something together for you and see how it costs out and see if you can replicate that trip independently. Lao Airlines were fine when we flew with them. I am a keen diver and wouldn’t have thought that Kep was any good for snorkelling or diving. It just isn’t that sort of place. More like a quick paddle and then off to the market for a Crab Amok! I think you can enjoy the scenery of Vang Vieng from the town but to make the best of it, you maybe need to get out of the town on a boat or tuk tuk . Not a great fan of one nighters, especially with the hard travelling you will be doing. No train to Battambang from PP . Mekong Express lux minibus was our preferred transport. Not sure about flights. We got a perfectly adequate big bus from there and our guest house picked us up fro free from the bus station ( most do) I think your southern Laos itinerary needs further consideration. No I don’t think Si Phan Don is worth it for a day trip. Maybe combine with Wat Phu and an overnight on one of the islands - great at dawn and dusk) Pakse is pleasant enough and I know you are only using it as base. Maybe one night there and then O/N in Bolavens. I do think it is important to nail your International and regional flights. As I recall there can be a big difference in cost between flying into LP or Vietianne ( or there used to be) which could have and influence on which way around you go. |
I love the fabrics in Cambodia (and Thailand, but my favorites are the silks and the cottons (especially the indigo dyed ones) in Laos. If you really like textiles, cross over the river from Luang Prabang and wander the weaving village for a morning or afternoon. Many homes sell directly from their looms to the visitors. Or, If you'd like to get some real appreciation for how many of the textiles are made, you can spend a day or a night, or a week at Ock Tok pop's weaving center in LP. They have one day classes in dyeing, weaving, and even even basket weaving, or you can take a mult-day class in making a silk scarf from scratch. I've done day classes twice, but would love to stay in one of their charming rooms on site and do more classes, and just sit and watch the river. They have a lovely cafe, and free shuttles into the heart of LP (about 5-10 minutes away). Their shops in town are also lovely, though not as cheap as in the weaving village.
https://www.ockpoptok.com/visit-us/villa |
I've flown Lao Air RT twice. The service is fine, but the planes.... Lets just say they are pretty old, so say your prayers! If you can go Air Asia, Vietnam Air or Bangkok Airways, you can get by with a quick Hail Mary. (Disclosure: I hate flying and always say a prayer, even though I am not a religious, much less Catholic flyer:lol:)
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Such enthusiasm for the textiles of Laos! Thankfully, I enjoy seeing textiles, even when not shopping.
And thanks, crellston & lcuy, for confirming that Lao Airlines should be fine. (Prayers never hurt, do they, lcuy?) . . . @ crellston: Once again, you are providing invaluable insights -- thank you so much! You had mentioned Artisans D'Angkor; it is firmly on my list as a place where I can find quality in service of a good cause. The logic behind my ordering of stops in Laos was, indeed, driven by flights. But obviously, I'm struggling to find a plan that works for my interests and time frame. I'm incredibly fortunate to be able to travel for a month at a time, but many of the options I've considered just won't fit in the time I'm able to take off work. I love a good waterfall or two, but the Bolavens Plateau isn't calling to me in the same way that some other places are -- at least not from what I've read so far. While there are a number of places that I hope to visit primarily for the scenery (including Vang Vieng and Si Phan Don), I'm not seeking places to chill out. And although I'm happy to work with cars & drivers when it suits -- and it sounds like doing so will prove invaluable for many of the things I hope to do -- I travel alone in part because, well, I want to be alone! I'm sure that must sound awful, but its true, and even though a driver is not a companion, sharing a car with a driver changes the experience for me. Lots of things to juggle! Your observations are definitely helping me think through my options and logistics, so again, many thanks! . . . @ lcuy: I had read about that village across the river from Luang Prabang and thought I might like it, so I'm very glad you mentioned it. And I hadn't thought at all about taking a class -- what a great idea! |
I'm with Crellston in reply #30 about Vang Vieng....2 uncomfortable days on the road between LP and V with just an overnight in VV doesn't appeal. V V is set in glorious countryside. At least have one full day hiring a tuk tuk or pushbike, and explore a bit.
I mentioned in a posting further up the thread the Thai frontier town of Nong Khai. It's just across The Friendship Bridge from V, and sits right on the Meekong. Well worth a couple of nights. A lovely place to stay is the Mutmee Guest House. |
I’d definitely second the across the river area in Luang Prabang. I found some great textiles in town too, but that was a few years ago. If you can make your last stop Phnom Penh, there’s many free trade, social enterprise type stores clustered around a walkable area. From memory 93rd street, google will find them. The prices are slightly higher, but much less hassle to buy.
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"If you really like textiles, cross over the river from Luang Prabang and wander the weaving village for a morning or afternoon. Many homes sell directly from their looms to the visitors. Or, If you'd like to get some real appreciation for how many of the textiles are made, you can spend a day or a night, or a week at Ock Tok pop's weaving center in LP.
--Comletely agree. BAck then it was cash only which stopped us from buying even more.:) |
It has (finally and again) occurred to me that no matter what I choices I make about this trip, I will see any number of things that I have long hoped to experience. How wonderful! The rest is "icing" (or "gravy," if you prefer). I find the need to remind myself of this fact any number of times each time a plan a trip, particularly when I get caught up in dilemmas about what to skip. I hope it will give me the perspective I need to step back, prioritize, and then see what "extras" I can manage. Thanks one and all for your patience, and do, please, keep offering insights into how things are similar or different from one another and what I might or might not consider adding or leaving out!
. . . @ LancasterLad: Thanks for confirming that the idea that just one night in Vang Vieng isn't a very good one. And thanks, too, for mentioning Nong Khai again -- I did take note of your mention of it upthread and have it in my notes as a possible side trip from Vientiane. If I don't make it part of this trip, do you think I could make it part of a future trip to Thailand, or is it too far from places I would likely visit in a month there? @ sartoric: Thanks for adding you voice to the recommendations for textile shopping -- or at least textile viewing -- along my route! @ yestravel: In that case, maybe I should make sure to carry only limited cash with me. ;) |
We spent a couple nights in Nong Khai a few years ago after visiting friends in nearby Udon Thani. Unless you had a reason to go to Udon Thani, most wouldn’t bother, it’s out of the way from major areas of interest. Similarly I thought Nong Khai was just okay, with little to see from a cultural perspective. I mostly remember a pleasant promenade on the river with many restaurants and the occasional elephant with handler wandering by.
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@ sartoric: Thanks for sharing your perspectives on both ease of access and interest value!
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Originally Posted by kja
(Post 17045689)
@ LancasterLad: Thanks for confirming that the idea that just one night in Vang Vieng isn't a very good one. And thanks, too, for mentioning Nong Khai again -- I did take note of your mention of it upthread and have it in my notes as a possible side trip from Vientiane. If I don't make it part of this trip, do you think I could make it part of a future trip to Thailand, or is it too far from places I would likely visit in a month there?
We travelled there by overnight sleeper train from Bangkok [Hualamphong]. We travelled 1st Class [not expensive] and had a very comfortable trip, sleeping most of the way. The compartment was very clean, with crisp white bed sheets. The only slight drawback was that there was only 2 bathrooms per carriage, a western one at one end, and a more rural affair at the other. But a minor inconvenience. We stayed at the excellent Mutmee Guesthouse in Nong Khai, which sits right on the banks of the Mekong. English/Thai run, and very good. Loy Krathong turned out to be excellent, and we really got into the swing of things. Plenty of other festivals though, so just try and pick one to coincide with your visit to enhance your stay. After 5 days we moved on across the Friendship Bridge into Laos. |
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