Please help in my Bhutan Planning
 

This isn't the first (or last message) I'll probably post re: Bhutan --- just trying to work out the details.

My main questions this time around:
- are 4 days enough/too little/not worth it for Bhutan? We would obviously do Paro and maybe one more city.
- the costs for 4 days is working out to be very $$$, and we're not even staying at the 5 star hotels. We've travelled to much of SE Asia and India... and are wondering, is Bhutan really worth it? How unique is the experience?

Any thoughts or help would be appreciated!
Thanks!

Sorry, I should add we are also considering Nepal on this same trip -- so will this be somewhat similar?

Also, I think it's important to note we're not trekkers, really just interested in culture, the sites, the peace and people.

Thanks.

We are again considering Bhutan, we did preliminary planning a couple of years ago. It is quite expensive and the regular accommodations would not be mistaken for luxurious. The price per person per day is US$200-240 depending on how many people in your party. If you book with an agency not located in Bhutan, they have to contract with a Bhutanese agency, and usually will mark up the price, so beware of that.

Personally, I wouldn't go to Bhutan for just 4 days. I'm looking at 10 days, but wouldn't opt for less than a week. It will be rather differnt from Nepal (where I have been).

The best guidebook on Bhutan is the Lonely Planet book.

Do a search on this board - there have been a few trip reports on Bhutan. There was someone with a recent report who was there for just a few days, so that might help you decide if it is worth it to you.

Four days might just be worthwhile if it included a festival, but you really need longer. I've been to Bhutan, although not to Nepal, but I think Bhutan is indeed unique. The dress, the houses, the lifestyle (although five years of TV may have had an effect) are all unique. Plus, out in the countryside, even on the road (there are only two) you can feel as if you have stepped back to the beginning of time. You can read my trip report on Bhutan at www.wilhelmswords.com/asia2001.

Yes, Bhutan is worth it. It's very different than any other country in Asia. I would suggest either:

1. 5 days - Paro, Thimphu, Punakha
This is the best itineray for a shorter trip. It's really worth it to go to Punakha.

2. 4 days - Paro, Thimphu. A little too short, but better than not going at all. Spend more of the time in Paro.

3. 10 days - all the way to Bumthang. That's what I did.

I'll be finishing my trip report on Bhutan one of these days...soon. I went to Bhutan one year ago.

Mealea, I'm anxiously awaiting your report!

Melea can you post your itinerary here please?

Thanks

J

I'm also planning a trip to Bhutan for December. After researching drive times (max 4-5 hrs a day)hotels, Lonely Planet and 15+ itineraries from top US companies, I'll share the itinerary I'm submitting to several Bhutanese tour operators for their bids and comments. I welcome yours.
Thursday: fly Paro from Bangkok, hang out in Paro
Friday: tour Paro valley and Haa valley, o/n Paro
Saturday: drive to Thimpu for weekend market + city touring o/n Thimpu
Sunday: drive Thimpu to Punaka Dzong, on to Wangdu
Monday: drive/tour Wangdu to Gantey - see
National Day celebrations
Tuesday: Gantey to Chumey valley o/n locally or in
Trongsa
Wednesday: attend festival in Trongsa
Thursday: Trongsa festival
Friday: drive Trongsa back toward Thimpu
Sat: return to Paro, sightseeing enroute and in town
Sunday: depart Paro to Delhi
Would I be rushing the flow if we arrived in Paro a day later and began Friday midday?

Robbie, I'm in the process of drawing up an itinerary as well. I'm really torn, as I don't want to move every day. I fear I'll just see scenery and not get a real flavor for the people and the culture, on teh other hand I want to see as much as I can. I'll also be interested to know which Bhutanese agencies you are submitting your proposal to.

If we go this year, our trip will be in November.

Bhutan is an amazing country, still very unspoilt. It is like visiting a living museum and everyone appears to be very happy. The previous King (who has since moved aside for his son) tried to preserve the country's culture and traditions so most locals wear the traditional garb (compulsory when visiting official places). Houses too have to be built in a traditional style. He was more interested in the Gross National Happiness as opposed to the GNP. There are beautiful dzongs (looks like the Potala in Tibet), beautiful scenery and beautiful people. It's the first country I have visited in the third world where I pay the same price for a bottle of mineral water as would my local guide when you walk into a shop. I would recommend Bhutan to everyone. The high costs are a deliberate measure to reduce the number of tourist and to deter backpackers. Note that the $200 per day minumum includes accommodation, guides, food etc.

To Kathie and all, I too am torn about how to see all that I reasonably can while in Bhutan and not forsake really experiencing the place. Any place where there's a town, I want to linger to mix and mingle.
The main highway appears to be the only east-west thoroughfare as far as I can tell. So if the destination is an important monastary off the main highway, I have the impression that there aren't many places to stop, except to appreciate the majestic scenery. If the activity at the monastery is interesting, I'm happy to stay several hours( or a day) visiting with monks (and interpreters) and foregoing some other "must see" place.
I plan to stress to tour operators that we want a guide who is very flexible, so that if we want to stay an extra day in an area or make other adjustments, he/she will make that happen.
I am hoping that 2 1/2 days at the festival in Trongsa will give us some concentrated interaction with local people. I also stress to guides that I'm interested in attending local life cycle events (births, weddings, house blessings, local sacred days, funerals, etc.) if our presence would not feel intrusive. (We were treated like honored guests at a funeral in Tana Toraja in '05 and it felt like we all were enriched by our interactions). What are your thoughts?
I'll let you know in a few days who I've decided to solicit bids from. Keep me posted on the same on your end.

It would be interesting to see if the tour operators can be flexible in terms of extra days in places you find interesting. My impression was that the trip was pretty much fixed on where we had to stay each night. We could change what we wanted to do during the day, but the hotels had to be booked and they got booked out pretty quickly.
Best of luck anyhow. It's a wonderful country. My tip is make good friends with your guide and he might invite you back to his house for a family home-cooked meal - a real experience away from the tourist approved restaurants. And maybe the guide won't feel obliged to accompany you everywhere and give you some space...

In flying into Paro, make sure you get the first class seats. It's a real blast coming in to land at Paro. If you are in1st class (4 seats on our plane) the captain/flight attendant might leave the door to the flight deck open and you'll have a fantastic view out the nose of the plane. The plane aims for the valley wal, then makes a steep banking turn to the right and right over a little hilltop. It is fantastic..like a roller coaster in a way, and I swear it looked like we were going tofly right into the mountainside! Also, 1st class has reasonably good meals.

We flew from Nepal to aro, then drove overland to the Indian bordr for our trip to Sikkim and Darjeeling areas of India.

I cannot recommend the overland exit. When we were there, it was right after some of the worst flooding in years, and many of the roads were washed out. It took 9 hours insteadof the usual 5. I will say though, that the scenery was quite nice.

The best hotels in Bhutan are no better than around 3 star hotels. hutan is pricey because they severely limit the number of tourists allowed into the country. At least they did when we visited in fall 2000.

Do take a day to do the horseride up to Eaglesnest (Tigersnest?? I forget..) Be aware, though, if you weight more than 150 lbs you will probably have to walk partway up the mountain trail.

We ran down the mountain...took about 20 minutes and our guide wascoming behind us telling us to be careful. A real hoot.


Mark-

Mark - I went overland from Paro to Siliguri (for the toy train to Darjeeling) in 2001, and the trip was fine (and fascinating). There were some washouts on the road across Bhutan, but they didn't hold us up that much. My group hiked to the Tiger's Nest overlook - cars could get closer than before as they were rebuilding after the fire and needed to get supplies in.

Getting off the roads (all two of them) in Bhutan requires hiking, and this would be a great country to do that.

The view from the cheap(er) seats on the plane is pretty spectacular, too.

Thursday...they were repairing the washed out roads when we ent through Interestingly enough, they brought in crews from India to do all the work. And, like Nepal, people drive like crazy in Butan....passing while going around bind corners, etc...

Yes, I really enjoyed looking out the windows at the himalayas peeking above the clouds.

Those of you who have been to Bhutan, tell us how long you were there and what your itinerary was. Were there places where you wish you had lingered longer? Any advice on planning?

Kathie - I posted the link to my Bhutan trip report upthread, but to summarize:

I went on a Geographic Expeditions 14 day trip, they no longer offer that exact itinerary, and if you're not traveling solo I wouldn't recommend a group tour (I feel a little silly with a car, driver, and guide just for one person).

Fly BKK to Paro, 3 nights, so-so museum, visit dzongs, walk around valley, hike to Tiger's Nest viewpoint

Drive to Thimpu, 1 night at Hotel Druz (sitting room and bedroom), attend festival, market, archery

Drive to Chuzomsa, 1 night at Kychu Resort (great location right above a river)

Drive to Jakar, 4 nights at guesthouse owned by Yangphel, the local operator (too far outside town, not that there's anything going on in town at night), festival, thangka raising, visit Ura valley

Drive to Trongsa, 1 night

Drive to Punakha, 1 night, visit dzong (it was being renovated after a fire, so we were allowed inside), visit disco
(there is VERY little nightlife in Bhutan!)

Drive to Thimpu, 2 nights, sightseeing

The group then flew back to BKK, I was driven to Phuntsoling for one night, and then a different driver took me
on to Siliguri.

The scenery everywhere was absolutely gorgeous. The hotels were fine. The food was boring - hotel buffets all the time. One night three of us got our local guide to take us into Jakar to "eat out", but it was clear this was not normal practice, and the food was pretty much the same as at the hotels. If I was going to do it over, I wouldn't have gone for so long, unless I was hiking.

Definitely make sure you're there for a festival. I particularly enjoyed the one while we were Jakar, as it was a small rural one, and aside from a couple of independents we were the only outsiders.

Thank you, Thursdays, somehow I missed the earlier link, but I will read your full report carefully. There are two of us, and we'll go without a group. Your comments are very helpful. It's so hard to decide how to use our time in Bhutan!

Kathie - if you're up to it I would definitely plan to hike. For me one of the great charms of Bhutan was standing out in the countryside and feeling I was back at the dawn of time, and obviously that works better if you're away from the road. And there are only two roads to start with.

I hate to say it, since the country is unique and fascinating, but I was getting a little bored by the end of the trip - same food, same dress, same architecture, too much time on the bus. That might have to do with being on a tour, though.

off topic here, but Iran was like hat Thursday, with regards to food. Everywere we went it was Kebab.. Lamb Kebb, Chicken Kebab, Fish Kebab...Kebab, Kebab, Kebab!

After about a week we finally got the guide in Isfahan to actually take us someplace that served food other than Kebab...once...it was better.

And let me tell you...don't bother with their take on pizza!...instead of sauce, they layer mushrooms...blech! (unless you like mushrooms. Still, the Iran trip was fun, being nearly the only foreigners in the country 3 weeks after 9/11 in 2001.

Mark-

Mark - you must have been in Iran when I was in Bhutan (having arrived in Pakistan right after 9/11!). Geo Ex had to put the remnants of three tours together to make one as so many people had canceled.

Envy you Iran, I keep thinking of going, and then putting it off, but the political situation doesn't get any better.

thursdays, I have printed you report - lots of good information!

Kathie - hope it helps. I'm looking forward to reading about your plans. I'd be happy to visit Bhutan again, but now I'm retired the expense is a real consideration.

Thursdays...

We arranged the Iran trip with a local Iranian travel company as a private trip for the two of us. We usualy do it that way so that we have more freedom to change things around. For example, while on the Caspian Sea, we got caught in a major rain storm/monsoon that flooded the entire area for a day...the roads were covered in 6-12 inches of water...so we cut that part f the trip short an spent a couple extra days in Shiraz and Isfahan. The old city of Bam was wonderful...unfortunately, it was mostly destroyed in the earthquae a couple years ago.

Mark-

Kathie,
My wife and I are also planning a trip in November for the 2 of us. We will be there Nov 5-18 as a private trip. We are talking to Blue Poppy at this time but have not settled on an itinerary. I am a freelance photographer and my wife is the journalist. We are planning on doing a photo expose on Bhutan. Maybe we will run into you there.

cameraman, you are farther along in your planning than we are in ours. Please post as you move forward with your arrangements. We're stilling ruminating about our plans. If we do go, we'll be in Bhutan part of teh time you are - we'll be arriving a little later.

Dear Taia,
There has been tourists who visited Bhutan for 4 days and were satisfied.However they combined with India and Sikkim (A himalayan Indian state close to Bhutan).But it is too little if you are flying all the way to the Himalayas only Bhutan for 4 days (3 nights).It is also not worth because you spend the same amount for flight whether it is 5 days or 15 days just to get there (unless you have a special flight and an offer on a certian date).If you have such special flight then it is worth even if it 3nights (4days) in Bhutan.Then you can do Paro (2 nights) and Thimphu (capital town) (1 night).if you want to escape to more quietness then you can do Haa (a quiet traditional town which was closed for tourism until recently).If the day is clear it is worth a drive over a mountain pass (Chelela) close to 4000m (one of the highest motorable point in the eastern himalayas).From the top one can get a stunning view of the Bhutan's most scared mountain Mt.Jomolhari (7314m).It also happens to be the country's second highest mountain.If time does not permit to go to Haa, one can still drive untill Chelela for the view.You have to tell me the month you are planning to visit so that I can advise you accordingly.But if you enjoy walking and do not have much physical problem then I would advise you to skip the drive and make a gentle climb in the Paro valley to view the tiger's nest monastery which almost opposes the gravity and literally hangs on a granite cliff.This is the religious symbol of Bhutan.
Bhutan is not expensive if you consider what it includes - a transport with airport pick up/drop and driving around for sight seeing which is under your command till the time you are there - a driver - a guide - all meals including tea/coffee and evening snacks - Hotels (Yes, I agree that they are not 5 star standard but it is clean, spacious with extremely friendly staff. Most Hotels in Paro and Thimphu has internet access, telephone,TV and running hot water).Government law has it that Hotels designated for tourist has to meet certian standards for any tour operator to use for their clients.So while in Bhutan you can be sure of staying in some of the best hotels excluding the new luxary hotels which has newly come to Bhutan (where a night stay alone is more than one's whole Bhutan day trip) and mind you they are called luxuary hotels but are still behind considering the price one pays compared to European and American standards.
Bhutan is definetly worth a trip.Most say it is a life time trip not for the amount of money one pays and the dificulties to enter on given date (because of the infastructure) but more because Bhutan captures the heart of every traveller with its magic ride back in time.
I've guided tourist of every nationalities for over 11 years in Bhutan and have never had an experience when a single client told me that it was not worth the price they paid.Bhutan mesmerises visitors starting from the clean crispy air you start breathing the moment you land to the friendliness of the people to the peacfulness of time.Vibrant culture and unspoiled nature is seen everywhere and is the only county in the world where national dress is worn when not in lesiure.Time here stands still.Bhutan is perhaps the only country without a MacDonals and a set of traffic lights.There are no beggers and homeless.People are full of smile and chilli is eaten as the most loved vegatable and not as a spice.This is indeed a unique country.
Let me know if you have any questions.Would be happy to shed more light.
Have a nice day!

Author: Kathie
Date: 02/07/2007, 09:33 pm
Robbie, I'm in the process of drawing up an itinerary as well. I'm really torn, as I don't want to move every day. I fear I'll just see scenery and not get a real flavor for the people and the culture, on teh other hand I want to see as much as I can. I'll also be interested to know which Bhutanese agencies you are submitting your proposal to.

If we go this year, our trip will be in November.


Dear Kathie,
I can understand your excitment and at the same time fear in going to a strange land where information is hard to come by and not being able to choose the right point of visit.
Scenery will engluf you the time you are there untill you leave.This does not mean that you will miss the culture, the people and the lifestyle.You can visit traditional houses and visit villages on foot and meet and see the people.This is mostly not drwan in the itinery

Dear Kathie,
I can understand your excitment as well as fear in going to a strange land where information is hard to come by and not being able to choose the right point of visit.
Scenery will engluf you the moment you are there untill you leave.This does not mean that you will miss the culture, the people and the lifestyle and the flavour as you put it.You can visit traditional houses and visit villages on foot and meet and see the people.You can even eat with the Bhutanese family if you do not mind the chillies which they eat as a common vegetable.....(no fear!...you can still have the milder version one. never think its is an extra work for them.They would be only happy to make a milder version for you.What is worst is to REFUSE).
This is mostly not drawn in the itinery but you can inform your tour guide in advance.Most travel companies rather include visit to the temples,monasteries and dzong (fortress) and tour guides follow it.To many dzongs can make you "Zonked".I can understand it very well for my visit in Europe made me "church out".Ask for changes to the day's program and go off the beaten track for the best flavour.If you could tell me if there is anything partiucular you look forward to then I would be able to advise you accordingly.
I agree that the Lonely Planet is so far the best book.But you should bear in mind that it was written on the universal standard like all lonely planet guide book.Since Bhutan has a unique form of tourism where only packages are allowed and independent and backpackers are not permitted.A lot can be different.If you get a good travelling guide...it is the best thing that can happen.It can make all the difference.
I wish you luck!
If there is anything.Write a note.Would be happy to help.
Have a nice day!

Hi Kathy, Taia and other future visitors:
I've now settled on my itinerary for December (to coincide with National Day and the Trongsa festival) and am corresponding with Blue Poppy Tours and Snow White Tours. If you want the detailed itinerary as it stands, let me know how I can get it to you.
Two companies said yes to everything I wanted to include; only the above two scaled back my proposal with very sound reasons that all my reading had not alerted me to.(sorry, too tired to correct the very bad sentence!)
From what I understand, other than deciding on how you want to spend your time (we're there 9 1/2 days), there's not much to do now. Druk Air fares & schedules don't come out until summer and hotels don't accept bookings (according to all 6 companies I contacted) until the fall.
Most companies will craft whatever itinerary you like, the key for me is getting the right guide....and I'm awaiting references at present. Anyone had a guide from either Blue Poppy or Snow White?

Robbie, thanks for your generous offer. I will ask Bob, the keeper of confidential email addresses to connect us.

We are still debating about whether to go to Bhutan this year. We've long wanted to visit Bhutan. My concern is that Bhutan requires you to travel with a guide. Frankly, after reading Craig's wonderful report on Burma, I was reminded of how much I value having time on my own to wander and interact with people on my own. I fear it would drive me crazy to be with a gudie all the time. Anyway, we are still debating.

I look forward to seeing what you've planned!

Kathie we have also been looking at Bhutan. We just got back from this years trip so it will be 2008. It is interesting but I have similar "fears" to you with regards to feeling like I don't really get to see the place because we are with a gude all the time. We have done a few treks in Nepal and don't really want to trek in Bhutan. I really want to enjoy the culture and the scenery. It always seems to happen thought that when I begin to think about another destination I pick up a magazine or turn on the radio and hear/read some sort of documentary about Bhutan and how "unspoilt" it is and once again I begin to think "I have got to get there"! So at the moment I am waiting for the new Lonely planet book to hopefully come out in the next month and am interestingly following what kind of itinerary you & robbie come up with.
Happy travels J

Jules, thanks for your comments. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who doesn't want my experience "mediated" by a guide!

While it's true you have to have a guide for Bhutan, I didn't find that he stuck to us like glue! Admittedly, I was traveling with 15 other people, not just one, but we were able to wander around on own once we reached a given destination.

Kathie, I almost want to make this a separate post about "Guides in Asia: Are They Really Necessary?" We are pretty much alike when it comes to guides. In some countries we have found they are a necessary evil. We made out well in Myanmar where the guides totally enhanced our trip with one exception - and even that particular guide saved us a lot of time and aggravation with some logistical problems. The Bhutan situation is unique it seems - the guide is always there - correct me if I'm wrong - this would be tough for us to deal with. You have to have a break along the way just to wander on your own, to do you own thing, to interact with the locals on your own terms.

Craig, it would be interesting to see people's responses to such a post. I have used guides in some places, but have always alternated that with independent time. In Bhutan, you are required to have a local guide. To me, that feels different. I'd be interested in other's perspectives on this.

Thursdays, I'm sure it's a bit different being in a group, but being required to have a guide feels constraining to me.

Robbie, I sent you an email - if you don't find it, please check your spam filter. I titled it "It's Kathie from Fodors" so you would know I'm not selling viagra, pumping a penny stock or offering you a loan.

Hi
we were really lucky with our guide in Bhutan - he was quite 'new' to it all. So when we could see how beautiful and amazing Bhutan was, it was like he could see his country anew! He didn't know tonnes of stuff about his country but that was sort of good cos we didn't want someone constantly spouting info in our ear all the time. He was such a good bloke, we got on really well. In the end he invited us to his home for dinner - not allowed by the tour company!!! It was very special.
Our driver on the other hand was an old hand at tourist guiding (but was taking a 'break') and he knew all the stories to tell and dare I say it, there was a bit of the cynic in him.

So...when you arrange your tour, if you're having a guide to yourself, perhaps try to specify what kind of character you think you'd get along with.

Cos there was just the 2 of us, our guide was with us from breakfast till dinner. When we specified that we'd like to have some private time, he let us. One night we walked back from the restaurant to the hotel by ourselves in the pitch dark. Those sweet stray dogs during the day are wild baying packs at night! Was never so scared in my life...

Bhutan does not permit independent travellers.The only trips possible are the package trips whereby guide is included in the package and is assigned even before you set foot there.However this does not mean that you have to stick with the guide 7/24.The good reasons why you should have a guide in Bhutan is that information is not easy to come by.Media is still weak and changes which constantly occur is not reflected appropriatly.Most of this is done by word of mouth and guides become a good source.The other reason to have a guide is because it is virtually impossible to travel on your own with the country.There are control and check points everytime you cross to another town.Permits and papers are to be produced (sometimes the controller is not available or he is taking a nap nearby where his house is).Guides know where and how to find them.Unlike other countries where once you get a visa one can travel in the county without constrain,Bhutan speaks differently.
However one can have freedom and enjoy ones' privacy.There are certian places of visit where you need to produce permit to enter (like dzongs (fortress) and some temples).Visit this places where you require permits first with the guide(since many do not permit tourist on their own) and leave the rest to wander on your own for the whole afternoon and evening.You could do this everyday in every place and have the whole afternoon and evening to yourself.Bhutan is safe and to wander on your own can be pleasant.
Enjoy your travel!!!

I have been thinking about the guide comments we have made and I think possibly the thing that causes myself Kathie & Craig to wonder whether it will work for us is that we have no choice. We have hired a driver & guide in Cambodia guide for part of the time only but a driver for the whole time and this worked out perfectly. The driver saves so much time and I enjoyed taking time out in a quiet corner of a temple to just talk with our guide while my hubby wandered off taking photos. If there was not the requirements of Bhutan I would guess that Kathie & ourselves would hire a driver at the very least especially considering the infrastructure of the country. What do you think?

Kathie if you get a copy of Robbies itinerary do you think you could summarize it here?

Happy travels

J