Please comment re. itinerary for Indochina
 

I just started to plan a trip to Indochina for November-mid December 2015. I would like to spend a total of 30 days to contain the cost of the trip and the cost of travel insurance (jumps up when one travels for more than 30 days); also usually we get tired after 30 days.

The two of us would like to get a “taste” of a few countries as we do not think that we will return. A few notes about our preferences: we are in our upper 60s, not looking for adventure, trakking and do not assume to see “everything” and just run from place to place. We like to walk in cities, see nature (the easy way), see whatever is specific to places we visit, some art, culture, history, local markets, etc. We don’t have the ambition to see ALL temples, ruins and do not like large group tours. Since I suffer when it is hot, I would like to stay in the North and avoid indoor spaces where it is stuffy (vans, trains, etc. without fresh air and A/C). While we are not looking for any luxuries, we do like comfortable, clean, quiet particularly for sleeping, in a safe area.

Here is a first cut of the itinerary, some of it dependent on availability of flights with airlines rated high for safety.

- D1, D2- flight from West Coast to Hong Kong
- D3, D4, D5 - 3 days in Hong Kong
- D6 - flight from Hong Kong to Chiang Mai w. Hong Kong Express Airways Limited (or Dragon Air)
- D7, D8, D9 - Chiang Mai; would love to have a Sunday included for the market and maybe catch a festival that I believe might be in November
- D10 - drive from Chaing Mai to Lao border
- D11, D12 - Luang Say cruise w. sleep over in Pakbeng to Luang Prabang
- D13, D14, D15, D16 - Luang Prabang; festival in Prabang?
- D17 - flight from Luang Prabang to Hanoi w. Vietnam Air
- D18, D19, D20 - Hanoi
- D21, D22 - Halong Bay
- D23, D24, D25 - Sapa w. Livitrans or Fansipan; would like to go to the one of the Saturday or Sunday markets in the neighboring towns
- D26 - Hanoi
- D27 - flight from Hanoi to Hong Kong w. Vietnam Air
- D28, D29 - Hong Kong
- D30 - flight to the US

Depending on the place for departure/arrival for the transpacific flight, we might need an overnight in LA, SF or Vancouver and that could take away another day.

I have some concerns regarding the following, based on preliminary reading:
- some people stated that the Luang Say cruise was boring and that last year in December it was freezing; neither the boat nor the hotels were prepared and people got sick …. Obviously nobody can predict the weather.
- the trains to Sapa have mixed comments (hard to sleep due to noise, short night, additional transfer from train to hotel, etc.). There are no controllable thermostats in the cabins and the windows cannot be open, so I do not know how stuffy and warm it gets…
- are Sapa and Halong Bay enjoyable choices between the end of November and mid-December?

I was considering reversing the order of the stops (Hong Kong- Hanoi-Luang Prabang- Chiang Mai- Hong Kong) to catch less warm weather in Chiang Mai and warmer weather in Sapa and Halong Bay but it seems based on current flight options that this would not be possible. If we could do this, if we really wanted to buy something in Chiang Mai, we could do it without having to carry it all along.

I’d appreciate your comments and suggestions re. itinerary and allocated days/pace, based on our interests, as above. I would like to make sure that this once in a lifetime trip will be a memorable one (with pleasant memories).

I think your pacing is fine. The problem may be weather for Halong Bay and Sapa likely (more an issue than Laos). But no one can predict that, though there is historical data www.weatherbase.com If you are concerned about it being cold, start in early November. The other places in the area I would recommend (Angkor Wat, Bangkok) may be too hot for you.

I think this is a trip you should not do. Southeast Asia is hot, unless you spend all of your time in northern Vietnam, which you could do in 2 weeks or less. The temperatures may be "mild" in the other areas (or not) depending on your luck. You seem to have too many constraints to attempt this trip and appreciate all that this part of the world has to offer. Go somewhere else.

I think your plan looks pretty good so far.

I can't speak about Hong Kong, but we love Chiang Mai and are going back in November 2014. There are some pleasant day trips, easy to organise in CM, to places like Doi Inthanon NP for a nature fix.
The festival you might be thinking of is Loy Krathong usually early November, this year 5th - 8th.

The shopping is great, and Thai Post could be used to send stuff home easily and reasonably.

We took the Luang Say cruise in Feb 2014, and really enjoyed it. They have woollen ponchos for early morning cold, wear layers and you should be fine. The lodge at Pak Beng was just beautiful, the food was great, and a local dance troupe performed and encouraged audience participation !

Luang Prabang is perfect for some downtime, just strolling and exploring the alleys.

We also loved Hanoi in late October a few years ago. Halong Bay was unreal, the scenery sublime. Perhaps discuss your tour options with your hotel in Hanoi, and choose an upmarket junk, the food will be better (ours was very very good, and we had all types of seafood).

Sapa is so worth a visit. There are some upmarket train options you could investigate, Victoria something, and I would next time pay for all four berths so as not to share with strangers. It's true that you might not get much sleep, the soft sleepers are very hard. I guess it depends on your level of padding !

I found Sapa quite cold in Oct, but then I get cold at about 20 C.

I echo what others have already said regarding heat and SE Asia. Based upon your requirements and the time of year, you may want to check out Japan and perhaps Korea, which can easily be done with HK if you want to see the city. However be prepared for higher prices than SE Asia.

I appreciate your comments and suggestions. I didn't know until now about the weatherbase site, Kathie. It seems that unless I am unlucky, the weather in all my selected locations will be pleasant (and in some places quite cool) by my standards. I will take the chance. Thanks for the suggested day trips and the info re. reasonable Thai Post option + sharing your experiences, Sartoric. I will now focus on each location on the itinerary and read about on the forum.

it is not always the heat that is the problem, it is the very high humidity.

I might have to put up with it and hope for the best...

Suzanna, there's a website - vietnamonline which might prove useful.

According to them, November is one of the better months for Hanoi and areas north.
I found it by googling "best time to visit Vietnam".

Travelfish.org is another good site for Asian exploration.

Don't be put off by the climate, you are going at one of the coolest possible times.
There's little better time of year if you want to see these places.

Thanks again. I am working on some open items that might impact the high level scheduling (e.g. finding out if the Luang Say cruise runs every day, if the Livitrans or Fansipan trains run every night back and forth between Hanoi and Sapa, the cost of these night trains, etc.). I knew about Travelfish, I find it a very useful website.

If you were in Hanoi and from there went on a two day cruise to Halong Bay, would you consider coming back from Halong Bay and back-to-back, take the night train on the same day (instead of sleeping another night in Hanoi)? Is that too much for a day?

We booked the Luang Say cruise first, and then worked the rest of the trip details around it, as we couldn't get our first choice date. That was about 4 months before the trip, so you have more time.

The drive from Halong Bay back to Hanoi takes about four hours. Our cruise included an early lunch on the second day, so we got back to Hanoi around 5.00 pm. The train leaves at around 8.00 pm, so yes, you could do it on the same day.

Livitrans and Fansipan are actually cars on the same train that runs every night. The timing of a return from a Halong Bay cruise and heading to Sapa would work with a dinner break in between.

Thanks, this is very helpful for my planning.

I sent an Email to Vietnam Railways for info and they make it quite confusing. They listed all trains/carriages w. some schedules and they said: "All private carriages listed are linked to a Vietnam Railways operated locomotive and other normal wagons except Victoria and Livitrans who are on another train.". Based on this I assumed that there might be more than one train....

http://www.seat61.com/Vietnam.htm#Hanoi-to-Lao-Cain provides some good info on train options to Sapa

crellston's link explains it better than I did as there are actually several trains. This will take you directly to the schedules for Hanoi-Sapa (Lao Cai) and what cars are on what train:

http://www.seat61.com/Vietnam.htm#Hanoi-to-Lao-Cai

What an excellent website! Thanks to both of you. I can now a clear understanding of everything related to traveling by train and the Sapa-Hanoi trains. Now back to planning.

I searched all over and could not find the hours for the Sunday, Bac Ha market. If any of you know it, please let me know.

Not sure about this particular market but most of the similar type of markets around S.E. Asia open at first light and will start to slow down around noon time.

I think the market "officially" opens at around 6.00am and, as mentioned above, will start to slow down towards noon. If going with your own guide or by yourself, I would aim to get there before 9 when tour buses seem to arrive. Well worth the early start. We will be revisiting Ba Ha in December and are planning to try an incorporate it into our travels further north to Ha Giang.
May even see you there!

Thanks. Probably we will go then to Bac Ha directly from the train in Lao Cai. It will get us there at the best time and save some driving time (no need to come back from Sapa though Lao Cai just for the market). And this being a small world, we might bump into each other, crellston.

I just looked at the current schedules for trains at the seat61 website and based on it I will probably use SP1/SP2 trains, as they get to Lao Cai at 5:30 (if the schedule doesn't change for 2015). The ride to Bac Ha takes about 1.5 hours. I do not know (yet) at what time it gets light in November/December, but arriving to Bac Ha around 7 am should be hopefully OK. SP1 & SP2 however, gets back to Hanoi at 4:10 which is very early... I do not know what one does at that time in Hanoi, unless early checkin is available at the hotel....

You can look up sunrise and sunset here:
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunrise.html

I would book an extra day at your hotel rather than risk waiting around to check in after the train arrives. Let the hotel know of your (very) late arrival time, though.

When we got back to our Hanoi hotel after Sapa, I was surprised to see steel shutters pulled down over the entrance. Hadn't realised they existed !

We sat on the steps for 20 minutes or so, then noticed a buzzer, and pushed it. Two minutes later the shutters rolled up, the night manager rolled away his camp bed, and then started moving the six or seven motorbikes parked in the foyer !

This was a great family run small hotel in the old quarter. Let me know if you want the name, I'd have to dig it out of the archives, but happy to do so.

Thanks, Craig for the smart sunrise site. In November and December the sunrise is around 6:15-6:35, so that will work out well. Good suggestion re. reserving a hotel for the early return day from Sapa.

As I was doing searching for info around Sapa I came across this description for Sapa, in Wikipedia: " Sa Pa is notable as a hill resort, a market town for timber and sex trade and known as the "queen of mountains"". I do not know how accurate this might be, but I only knew about the mountains, the rice fields, the hill tribes and the market...

Thanks for the offer sartorial, if finding the small hotel in Hanoi that you liked is not too much trouble, I'd appreciate it.

I do not know if the next topic belongs here, but it is part of my planned trip.

Two festivals are listed in December in LP: Kin Chiang (Hmong New Year) and Boun pot Py (Khmu New Year). I could not find anywhere the dates for December 2015. Does anyone know when they will be celebrated in Dec 2015 and how many days each lasts?

I saw some comments re. Victoria Hotel in Sapa being far away from the center of the city and as a result (while very nice), somewhat inconvenient. What distances are we talking about? Is it safe to walk at night from the center to this hotel or generally in the city?

It was Hanoi Old Quarter Hotel (original ha) that we stayed at, but this is back in Oct 2009, I'd check current reviews.
We really enjoyed the Museum of Ethnology while in Hanoi, and of course wandering in the old quarter.

In Sapa we stayed at Holiday View Hotel, very central to town with stunning views.

Thanks for encouraging me to dig out this file from 5 years ago, a trip down memory lane for sure !

Happy planning !

As I recall, the Victoria is located up a hill, but not from the center of the town. Sapa is not really a city - it is fairly compact and easy to get around. It should be quite safe to walk at night.

Suzanna, the dates for the new years celebrations in LP will be difficult to locate this far in advance. The days are dependent on moon phases. We were there during Hmong New year many years ago and visited a local Hmong village. That was in 2002, before LP became firmly established on the tourist map.

Thanks for digging out the name of the hotel which you liked in Hanoi, sartoric. I will look it up. I appreciate the follow-ups, Craig & Kathie.

I would love to have suggestions based on your experiences for hotels in Hong Kong, Chiang Mai, Chiang Rai or near the Thai/Laos border (1 night before the cruise), Luang Prabang, Hanoi and Sapa. Everyone's taste, expectations and budget being different, here is what I am looking for: equivalent for what one finds usually at 3-3.5 AAA star hotels/motels in the USA, in a safe, relatively "central" location which means: clean, quiet, comfortable, with good A/C (to ensure a good night sleep) and private bathroom with hot water, ideally w. breakfast included and a safe in the room. We are not looking for luxury but we would like to find a comfortable place. If cold is to be expected at night, it would be nice to have heat for the bathroom. I do not know if this is too much to expect in the above locations for under $100/night for two people.

Hong Kong will be the place that blows your budget. Hotels there are very expensive. The only suggestion I have to offer there is the Salisbury YWCA... quality is about like old Holiday Inns in the US. It will still be over $100 a night.

Chiang Mai take a look at Baan Orapin, family owned, well-located.

It's been too long since I was last in LP - we stayed at La Residence Phou Vao for about $120 a night - I hear it's over $400 a night now.

Have a great trip!

Not sure about HK, but you should have no problem finding very good rooms with your budget in the other locations.

In Chiang Rai we stayed at Le Patta, it's new, opened in Jan 2014, great location about a block from the main street, and the night market is just around the corner. You can get fantastic seafood hotpot at the night market for a few dollars. If you're interested in cooking, check out "Cook Thai Yourself" run by an energetic Thai lady named Tik. We spent a day with her, not only enjoying the markets, the food and her garden, but also her philosophy and take on life.

In Chiang Khong (pre Luang Say cruise) we stayed at the Riverside Hotel, basic rooms, but with a small balcony and views of the Mekong. The Teak Garden Guesthouse is supposed to be good.

In Luang Prabang we stayed at Apsara Hotel, beautiful spot, with lovely large rooms and great food.

I used lots of reports on this site when planning, in particular the reports from Yestravel and Progol were really helpful.

Thanks for the suggestions. Unfortunately I missed the occasion to stay at La Residence Phou Vao. The lowest rate for 4 nights in November is $3,500. They include taxes, fees and breakfast... Le Patta in Chiang Rai seems to be a good (not cheap) place as long as one can get a quiet room. I am looking up the rest of the suggested places. Sartoric, vietnamonline (one of the websites you suggested) is an informative resource.

Yipes! La Residence Phou Vao is even more expensive than when I last checked on it!!

In LP I would second sartorics suggestion of the Apsara great location, nice rooms and reasonable rates ( I think they have now opened a second venue further away from the centre). We also stayed at Villa Santi years ago, very central but unless it has improved I would avoid it!

Also stayed The 3 Nagas which is in a superb location and a lovely place to stay, but I think rates have rocketed since it was taken over.

We have stayed in quite a few places in Chiang Mai over the years but one of the best was 3 Sis http://the3sis.com great location on the edge of the old town, nice spacious rooms and lots of god restaurants close by. A great wat just across the road. Great value.

Thanks, I will check them out.

Someone told me that it doesn't have to be Sunday for the market in Chiang Mai, that every day there is a market and it doesn't make a difference if one catches the one on Sunday or not. What I have been reading keeps talking about the Sunday market as a special experience. Could you clarify?

very Sundays there is a "walkingk street" market along Rachadamnoen Road when the street ( and a few others now!) are closed to cars. It is sometimes also referred to as teh weeken market but, as we went on a Sunday, I am not sure whether it is actually open on a Friday or Saturday. When we went it as VERY busy, jam packed with local people and tourists. The quality of the handicrafts seemed much higher than in the night bazaar which is more than a little tack but does operate every night.

There is also a Saturday market on Wualai Road which is smaller but apparently has some of the same vendors as the Sunday market.

There was a lot of street entertainment going on in the Sunday market from Ladyboys to minority music. The courtyards of some of the temple were turned into makeshift food courts serving up some great food.

I would say go on a Sunday if you can. It is, as you say, a very special experience.

Last visit, we only went to the Sunday night market in CM, so can't compare to the regular night market.

However, in Chiang Rai we visited both the regular night market and the Saturday night walking street market. There was a huge difference in the number of stalls, about a kilometre of road closed for the special once a week Saturday night extravaganza. Great food and handicrafts.

Perhaps similar in CM ? Who knows, but I will be there again in about 6 weeks, likely to check out the regular markets this time, I'll let you know.

Thanks. Plan version #1 has 5 nights in Chiang Mai (assumed arrival on the first day at around 10 am) and 4 nights in Hanoi (not including nights on the Halong Bay cruise and train to Sapa). Somehow it seems to be too much for Chiang Mai. Would you add another day to Chiang Rai (where I would sleep before the Luang Say cruise) or to Hanoi? Is even 4 days too much for Chiang Mai for someone not into hiking?

How many nights are currently planned for Chiang Rai ? We had four or five nights there last Feb, really enjoyed it. You do realise it will be a very early start to get to CK from CR for your Luang Say cruise. It's about 90 mins by car from CR to CK - going by memory here, so could be wrong.

I can't really advise whether to cut CM for more time in Hanoi, we had two weeks in Hanoi.

I can easily spend four nights in CM, not really a hiker either.

Perhaps have a think about what sights/ activities you want to enjoy in each place, then plot it out on a calendar and see how it fits together.

Let us know how you get on.

Thanks, Sartoric. Right now I would leave in the morning from Chiang Mai for Chiang Rai and spend there 1 night before the trip to the border for the cruise. Obviously that's very little for Chiang Rai but I am running out of days.... We cannot spend 2 weeks in just Hanoii...

About how much should I plan to spend on a day tour with a good, English speaking guide and a van just for the two of us in Chiang Mai, Luang Prbang and Hanoi?

I haven't used a guide in the places you list, but in Chiang Rai we paid about $50 or $60 for a great guide for the day, which included a fantastic lunch cooked by his wife while we floated down a river on a bamboo raft.

I don't think you need a guide in Luang Prabang, it is compact and easily walkable with a guide book for reference. You will have seen two villages and a cave while on the Luang Say,

Chiang Mai is also compact and easily walked, the Nancy Chandler maps are recommended by many on this board (although not drawn to scale). There are hundreds of travel agents in CM who will customise whatever you want for excursions out of town.

In Hanoi we found a guy on the street we liked, he organised to take us by taxi to his village, his wife cooked lunch, and we visited a ceramics village on the way. I paid about $15 for the taxi, and gave him $40 for his daughters education - he didn't want any payment. I'm not suggesting you do this, but rather trying to point out that once on the ground, you will find arranging day trips and city exploration very easy and far cheaper than booking in advance. Many on this forum recommend walking tours with Hanoi Kids, check them out.

Have you read the reports by Progol and Yestravel ? I think I mentioned them up thread, great advice for Northern Thailand and Laos.