Planning Japan Trip #2
 

Many thanks on the previous thread that's gotten me at least this far.

And special shout-outs to kimjapan, lcuy, craig and mrwunrfl for their help so far.

To recap: planning 10 days in Japan in December (before heading to Thailand for about 5 days)

The following places have made it to our short list ... and I'm presenting them in a lame attempt of potential order of visit:

Fly into Tokyo (1-2 nights; assuming we fly in and out of here)
Shibu Onsen (1 night; to visit snow monkeys at Jigokudani; looking at Kanaguwa for lodging)
Kanazawa (3 nights, with 1 of those potentially at Beniya Mukayu)
Takayama (1 night; day trip to Shirakawa-go)
Kyoto or Osaka (1 night; while in transit to...)
Naoshima (2 nights); Fly out of Takamatsu/NRT)

The issue I keep coming into is that it feels with this itinerary we might get stuck in ryokan almost a little too much. It's not the accomodations that are a problem, but the overwhelming meals can be exactly that...overwhelming and I'm not sure we'd want that all that often (but would want it in the 'right' places). I'm sure we'll be in hotels in Tokyo or Kyoto/Osaka, and maybe in Kanazawa we can avoid by staying in a machiya.

The other issue is that perhaps we're biting off too much in 10 days. Don't want to be running around at an unreasonable pace.

So, need some additional critique here from the experts. Would you recommend re-ordering the cities? Or cut something out? I know that getting to the snow monkeys can be a pain (which is why we'd stay overnight nearby) -- and that it might be a bit touristy -- but we really do have our hearts set on the experience.

No real rush except I need to buy my award tickets soon so the only really important part it to try and nail down our entry and exit points in Japan.

Nothing useful to add only a big sigh that we are not coming along :(

It's not too late, smeagol. Just imagine some fantastic nuit millinaires (a hot toddy, or its Japanese equivalent) all whilst presiding over a winter wonderland. And...SNOW MONKEYS!

Following the thread...we hope to return to Japan as well...but REALLY hoping to see your India comments soon :)

If I was doing this, I think I'd enjoy the art in Naoshima more in the beginning, and enjoy Shibu Onsen as a way to leave Japan on a very traditional high note, and snow might be more likely the later you go.

I might also think about doing Takayama/Shirakawa-go OR Kanazawa, to allow a little extra breathing space. You know you WILL go back to Japan again, right? ;-)

Regardless of the direction, your destinations seem to be in a good order to alternate tourist/business hotels in between ryokan destinations, so you won't feel obligated to eat ten million calories every night.

Hmm...didn't think of it that way, Lucy. I was sort of hoping to exit Japan on the warmer side (not the colder!) ;)

If I did consider swapping the order, would you fly into Osaka and stay in Kyoto first?

One thing I took into consideration is Kim's advice that getting to Shibu Onsen (and the monkey park) is arduous. She had mentioned, I believe, that going via Tokyo was the most efficient (and presumably fastest) way. That was sort of the driver for starting in Tokyo.

But if others have thoughts, please do let me know.

Thanks so far!!

Hi Filmwill,

Note that the new shinkansen will be running between Kanazawa and Nagano starting in March, but the times don't show up on Hyperdia yet. If you do decide to reverse the order, it will cut about an hour off the trip from Kanazawa to Yudanaka (for Shibu Onsen). Of course, if you keep the current order, you will still benefit, but in the opposite direction.

FYI, we are going for our second trip this April, and the last 5 days will be Kanazawa to Shibu Onsen (staying at Kanaguya) to Matsumoto to Narita. I should have a trip report posted by late April, if you are interested. We did Takayama last time and loved it. It really warrants a full day (we stayed two nights) if you have the time. Have fun!

Billy, while Beniya Mukayu is only 25 minutes from Kanazawa, you'll want to maximize your time there, which would take away from your Kanazawa sightseeing. I think you do need a couple of days to fully enjoy the city. I don't know if the other ryokans in your itinerary are as upscale but if they are, I would consider giving Beniya Mukayu a pass. You would miss a fabulous breakfast and dinner though and the in-room bath is a treat...

We found the machiya "Kikunoya" convenient for Kanazawa sightseeing, but keep in mind that it is on the other side of town from the train station. It might be helpful for you to read my trip report, if you haven't already:
http://www.fodors.com/community/asia...rip-report.cfm

Billy, send me your dates............

>>Takayama (1 night; day trip to Shirakawa-go)

That's not right. Not between Kanazawa and Kyoto. I think you can skip Takayama, tho that's not an easy thing to say. Then you go S-go back to Kanazawa. From there it is 4 hours to Okayama, so you could skip the overnight in Kyoto/Osaka. Or Kobe or Okayama would be good for an overnight enroute.

What airline would you use for Takamatsu-NRT?

I mentioned getting a one-way domestic Japan flight award. The cost is now 10,000 miles (not 6,000 like I mentioned on your other thread).

If we skip something it might be S-Go. Reading the reviews of the accommodations it's not the shared bathrooms that have me turned off so
much as the paper thin walls and noise. Seemed like Takayama was close enough to S-Go (Kim had mentioned, I believe, it was day-trippable.). What is it that's not right? Just trying to understand more.

As for Kyoto or Osaka, I'm open to other stopovers.

And as for flying out of Takamatsu, it seems Jetstar has a nonstop flight in the afternoon. I know there are a lot
more flights to Haneda from there but I'd really like to fly in and out of NRT as the options on airlines (and their respective offerings) from LAX to there and from there to BKK are so much better.

Warm greetings again filmwill (Billy!) from end-of-work week in San Francisco Bay Area. Just catching up with Fodor's; delighted you are returning to one of my favourite countries for work and holiday, Japan.

[And rumour has it, you flew "our" Singapore Airlines in exceptionally good style from LAX to our fine home of Singapore - and beyond to India (and back). I do salute you, sir, for your rather fine Art of Travel; well done.]

Now, regarding Japan, you have already received good suggestions. Concerning potential lodgings, will suggest two properties that have recently and easily exceeded my modest Tokyo business travel expectations, the Mandarin Oriental and the Shangri-La (assuming you have already savoured time at the Park Hyatt, another hotel I have enjoyed for work). I mention the MO, as you indicated you would be staying at the MO Singapore during your recent holiday. If so, I am confident you would appreciate her Tokyo sister. I also mention the Tokyo Shangri-La, as I finally had the privilege of staying with her last month for meetings, as noted on my profile page. Class operations, all.

Concerning a potential Takayama stay for you, will give a heartfelt (and shameless) promotion to spending time at the Hida Takayama Museum of Art and taking in some creations from a cherished ancestor, Mr. Charles Rennie Mackintosh. It's been a few years since my last Hida Museum visit; special place.

Potential Kyoto lodgings, have always stayed with long-time family friends. Time permitting, will suggest a visit to Kita Antiques (another shameless promotion, involving a long-running family friendship).

All for now; will have more Japan thoughts later, particularly after my next scheduled Tokyo business trip in late April / early May. Savour your planning, Billy; very happy for you. Flying back to Seoul this weekend for more meetings via that fine SQ15 to Incheon. Warm weekend wishes to you and all from SF Bay Area,

macintosh (robert)


... Singapore Girl, You're a Great Way to Fly ...

Hmmmmm to me this looks like a busy schedule....very busy with lots of train time. I would either cut Naoshima or the monkey park (yikes). That way you can fly in and out of Osaka(not Tokyo)and travel at a more leisurely pace enjoying more along the way. Is Tokyo the only option from LAX??

Why am I thinking the spring or fall would be a better time to visit Naoshima? The beaches and island atmosphere there might not be conducive to winter weather imho but Ive only been there in the spring and fall so....

Stay the two or three nights in the geisha house in Kanazawa that Kim can get for you.

We will be back at the Park Hyatt in Tokyo in Dec. Maybe we'll see you guys around lol

Aloha!

HT! Was waiting for you to chime in!

There is no longer a LAX-KIX flight. It's out of SFO now. That is an option, but it's on United and UA is notoriously stingy with award flights over holidays on their own metal, so I'm not banking on that being an option. With NRT, we have a pick of ANA (preferred) direct or Asiana (via Seoul).

As for cutting those two places, as luck would have it, those are the two places that we were most excited to visit, so will probably have to go back to the drawing board on this plan and figure out another way. Just curious if your yikes was meant in a 'yikes, avoid the monkey park' way.

As for Naoshima in the winter, we're really going there for the art and the experience of staying essentially in a museum, more than anything (friends we know who went -- who know us well -- said we would love it there). The beaches I could honestly care less about. Given that it's a bit further south, I would assume it won't be AS cold (but still chilly).

Have you and Linda settled on dates (if you're as crazy as me, planning this early)? Would be fantastic to meet up!

I was just going to mention that lodging in Shirakawago that I had was just a room with a futon and heater. Might have been a table, closet, maybe not. I had no issues with other guests - I was the only guest. It was early January and mid-week. Not a great sleep and the bus from/to Takaoka was not fun, but it was worth it for me.

S-go (or Gokayama) is a day trip from Kanazawa. Looks like Takayama would be a day trip: 54 miles, 56 minutes by car (according to Yahoo). YMMV, in winter, in mountains. By bus it would be a bit more difficult.

>>What is it that's not right?
I was assuming bus from Kanazawa to Takayama, an overnight there, and then JR from Takayama to Kyoto/Osaka. If you were overnighting in Takayama then that would be better before Kanazawa - Nagano to Takayama (by JR) to Kanazawa (by bus).

Jetstar! good, I would not want to fly to Haneda either. Did you check Okayama (OKJ) to NRT?

I said "yikes" to monkey park because I knew you guys wanted to go there lol. And I only recommend cutting one or the other not both lol. Save one for your return visit prob Naoshima that way you can explore environs south (or West as the Japanese would say) of Kyoto too :))

We plan to be at the PH Tokyo 12/9-12/12

Aloha!

filmwill:

I have been looking forward to reading the details of your India trip before finalizing my itinerary.

When do you plan to post a trip report?

Working on it, tennismaine. May even have something tonight ready to post.

In the meantime, a follow-up on this. Been working with our good friend KimJapan to help rewire/reroute the trip a bit.

The biggest development is that I think we've accepted dropping S-Go (at least for now, as it seemingly does not fit into our overall plan.) There's still the option to do a day trip from Takayama (where will be staying two nights.)

The latest version of this ever-changing itinerary looks something like this:

*Fly into Narita (overnight in Tokyo)
*Train to Niki Club (in Nasu; about 1 hour northwest, I believe, of Tokyo) - 2 nights there
*Train to Kanazawa (hoping to use the new Shinkansen which should make the trip about 4 hours, I believe) - 3 nights Kanazawa
*Takayama - 2 nights
*Osaka - 1 night on the way to...
*Naoshima - 2 nights
*Fly to BKK via Takamatsu/NRT

So, HT and mrwunrfl...and anyone else who can chime in...thoughts?

I did toy with the idea of going straight through from Takayama to Naoshima (it's 5 hours, but that's really not that bad to us and we'd get there by 1:30 PM on the same day) and then have Osaka on the way back, flying out of KIX to BKK. But can't decide if that's just too much work or not.

Anyway, excited to get more feedback!

Adding a 2nd night to Takayama is a good idea. The JR route there would be via Toyama. That would be only 35 minutes of backtracking, Kanazawa to Toyama, on the limited express, so a bit less on the shinkansen when it starts. I would definitely want that trip to be all-daylight hours (for scenery). With only two night in Takayama you can skip S-go and just visit the Hida-no Sato.

How did you get 5 hours as travel time between Takayama and Naoshima? I don't understand how that can be done in less than 6 hours. Please provide the specifics of how you are going to get there by 1:30PM.

>>Did you check Okayama (OKJ) to NRT?
That question remains, and now I am wondering about your logistics from Naoshima-Takamatsu-NRT.

Why is Takayama on your itinerary? There are other "cool places" that KimJ mentioned that you would be giving up by going there which also complicates your travel to Naoshima.

<<How did you get 5 hours as travel time between Takayama and Naoshima? I don't understand how that can be done in less than 6 hours. Please provide the specifics of how you are going to get there by 1:30PM.>>

I don't have the specific Hyperdia routing in front of me. You may be right that it's 6 hours, not 5. But I recall it leaves at 8 AM and went through Nagoya and Okayama and arrived maybe at 2 PM to Uno. Sorry. I didn't mean to mislead. 5 or 6 hours, doesn't really make a big difference either way, does it? Arriving at 1 PM or 2 PM also doesn't make a difference as far as getting time at a hotel that day.

<<Did you check Okayama (OKJ) to NRT? That question remains, and now I am wondering about your logistics from Naoshima-Takamatsu-NRT>>

As mentioned earlier, there's a Jetstar flight from Takamatsu to NRT that arrives with plenty of time to catch 2 different flights to BKK.
It seems to me that Takamatsu is much closer to Naoshima than Okayama. There's a ferry from Naoshima directly to Takamatsu port and it seems a 25 min cab ride to the airport from there. Am I missing something?

<<Why is Takayama on your itinerary? There are other "cool places" that KimJ mentioned that you would be giving up by going there which also complicates your travel to Naoshima.>>

What other "cool" places has she recommended to me? Have you guys been talking? :) I don't recall other options that seemed more interesting on our travel path and, to me, Takayama seems like a really beautifully preserved "old town" that offers really unique scenery different from anywhere else on our trip. Is there something you don't like about Takayama?
If there are other "cool" places you feel I'm missing out on, then, by all means, PLEASE tell me what they are and why you think they're better options.

Thanks!

For what it's worth, I loved Takayama and think it's well worth being part of your itinerary. I agree that Hida-no-sato is well worth exploring if you decide to skip S-go.

334 minutes from Takayama to Uno with three train changes. 8 am - 13:34. Then walk across the street for a twenty minute ferry ride to Naoshima....piece of cake and is what I would do taking in Osaka at the end of trip.

Uno station is actually in Okayama iirc so you are close to OKJ

Although Takayama is a not a small town I think it is pretty cool lol

Some cool places you will be close to:

http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e7850.html

http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e5701.html

If you are staying on Nasuyama go up the mountain to the top where there is a Gondola ride and tons of hiking, beautiful vistas. It will be cool to cold in Nasu. You can rent a car at the JR station and drive the area. Real easy and convenient in this area of Japan. Only other public transports are taxis and buses. I did a trip report on this area a few years ago....

Aloha!

>>Although Takayama is a not a small town I think it is pretty cool lol

I agree.

On your other thread, filmwill, is where KimJ mentioned cool places nearer Kanazawa.

It is the 6 hour trip from there to Naoshima that makes me tense. My goal is to limit daily travel in Japan to 4 hours. Max of 5 hours, if that is the only way the plan works (for me). More than that then I have to re-plan - or go back to your original plan and make a stop on the way.

Osaka would be a good stop on the way to Naoshima. Maybe Okayama to see the castle, but Korakuen in December won't look like the pictures in the link that ht gave.

I don't get the idea of taking in Osaka at the end of the trip.

Thanks, guys!

HT, I'm not sure where Niki Club is in relation to the mountain itself. Is the Nasu ropeway/gondola be open? Or more importantly, will it be too cold or snowy to hike in December? I'm so excited about staying at this place and there is so much to do there (hiking, forest onsens, etc.) that I'm not even sure we'll want to wander all that far. :)

MW, I should clarify: we've already been to Osaka (on the last trip), so it's not really to take it in since we've done that -- but rather to use it as a way to better connect into NRT. It's looking like our options (for award seats) to BKK would involve early flights from NRT to BKK (or even from KIX to BKK, if luck allows). Looking like flying Takamatsu to NRT (only one flight a day) and connecting out would get us to NRT too late. So Osaka really is just a way to get out of Naoshima and closer to a major airport without having to rush like mad the day we connect out to Thailand.

>>there's a Jetstar flight from Takamatsu to NRT that arrives with plenty of time to catch 2 different flights to BKK

>> Looking like flying Takamatsu to NRT (only one flight a day) and connecting out would get us to NRT too late.

Ok, so I am confused. For the KIX-BKK trip I see there are two Thai nonstops. One is a 3-cabin A380, so I guess it is as good as it gets at NRT. The other is a 777-300 and I would have to compare the seating on that with what product is offered from NRT before deciding to use NRT or that flight from KIX.

>>334 minutes from Takayama to Uno with three train changes. 8 am - 13:34

That looks ok but the shinkansen is a Nozomi. With a JR Pass, take the same 8AM departure and get to Uno one hour later, at 14:34. Now the trip to Naoshima is (a whopping) 7 hours (or more) with 4 changes (counting the boat).

No need to be confused. We're using UA miles for award seats, and looking at dates so far in December...very few of the flights from NRT - BKK are available. The only ones that tend to be available leave in the morning from NRT. The only flight from Takamatsu to NRT is in the afternoon. Far more availability out of KIX and even other airports.

It bears noting, of course, that none of this is set in stone. When booking a mileage award, you're at the mercy of flights. We already have our outbound booked. But the stopover/open jaw sections from Japan to BKK and BKK back home promise (of course) to complicate things even further. We'll know in less than 2 weeks when we can add the return flights to our itinerary. What we end up with may very well completely end up changing our itinerary.

I thank you again for your continued patience and help.

Anyone have any experience with the area around Mt. Aso? I know there was a big eruption there back in November so perhaps not the best place to visit, but there's an amazing place near there called Takefue that is working it's way rapidly towards to the of my places to visit on this trip. That really seems to fit the whole 'onsen in the snow' dream I've been having.

I am aware that it's a bit of pain to get to, but it may be something we do instead of Takayama, etc. and head south at the end of the trip and fly out of Fukuoka.

I understand renting a car is an option there but I don't want to deal with snowy roads and chains on vacation so would probably look at getting a private taxi from Hita Station.

It does seem like a pain to get to, though. Just wondering if it's as beautiful as it seems.

If you're willing to take out Osaka, there are flights between Komatsu and Fukuoka on ANA.

By the way, I'm following your thread rather closely as I'm looking at aspects of a similar itinerary for a return trip to Australia and Japan for 2016.

Yes Bill there are gases leaking from Asosan at the moment but that will only keep you away from the actual crater. Lucy just went to the ryokan in that area with trip report here:

http://www.fodors.com/community/asia...kawa-onsen.cfm

and we did one a few years back here:

http://www.fodors.com/community/asia...-fall-2011.cfm

Kurokawa Onsen is high on our list for a return visit.The place is really magical....Sanga Ryokan if you can get it

Onsen in the snow? I would return here in a heartbeat. Not luxurious by any means, in fact a 400+ year old minshuku in the mountains but reeks with history and actually really easy to get to from Tokyo.

http://www.japaneseguesthouses.com/r...surunoyu+Onsen

Aloha!

HT (and others),

So Kim and you all have been so very helpful. The problem is: now I find myself narrowed down to two very distinct and somewhat different itineraries. And I really need to make a choice.

I have to say that I'm slightly obsessed with Kurokawa Onsen. First from Lucy's description then from HT's report. I *really* do want to go to Sanga -- as it looks heavenly. Kim did mention to me, though, as a warning, that there might not be snow in Kurokawa in December... but I might be willing to take that risk, either way. Sounds like Lucy did, indeed, get snow there in December.

So things have been narrowed down (I hope) to 2 distinct paths, as you'll see below. One version has us going through Tokyo and visiting Nasu (Niki Club) and the other has us going direct to Osaka and visiting Kurokawa Onsen (Sanga). Both, I think, are viable options. I understand there's some serious train time in these, and I'm really okay with that.

A few things that are important to note in what went into creating these paths:

*I've realized that going to Kurokawa involves quite a bit of logistics. It's clear that it's not easy to get there. I'm not sure if it's worth all the hassle, but the reviews here seem to indicate it is. I still struggle with the 'is it worth it?' question. Itinerary 1 doesn't involve is, to me, the alternate to the 'all that hassle' version (Itinerary 2)

*I know you'll all ask why we're flying out of Fukuoka, but WE MUST. These are the ONLY award flights available to go direct to BKK. Every other option out of NRT, HND, KIX or ITM all have at least 2-3 connections. I frankly don't want to fly to Beijing to fly to Bangkok. That's nuts. It's a very easy decision to say we go out of FUK. So that drives the way we leave Japan in both versions of this itinerary.

So please review options 1 and 2 and please give me your honest thoughts (all of you!) ... I need to make a decision on the in and out points within 5 days.

<b>ITINERARY 1</b>
Day 1 Depart from LAX
Day 2 Arrive Tokyo @ 4PM (overnight at Four Seasons)
Day 3 Train to Nasu (stay @ Niki Club)
Day 4 Nasu
Day 5 Train back to Tokyo > Kanazawa
Day 6 Kanazawa
Day 7 Kanazawa
Day 8 Bus to Takayama (stop in S-Go; overnight @ ryokan)
Day 9 Train to Osaka
Day 10 Train/Ferry to Naoshima
Day 11 Naoshima
Day 12 Train to Fukuoka
Day 13 Fly to Bangkok from Fukuoka (9 AM)

<b>ITINERARY 2</b>
Day 1 Depart from LAX
Day 2 Arrive Osaka @ 8 PM
Day 3 Osaka
Day 4 Train/Ferry to Naoshima
Day 5 Naoshima
Day 6 Ferry/Train to Kanazawa
Day 7 Kanazawa
Day 8 Kanazawa
Day 9 Fly to Fukuoka from Komatsu > Train to Kumamoto (overnight in Kumamoto)
Day 10 Kurokawa Onsen
Day 11 Kurokawa Onsen
Day 12 Fukuoka
Day 13 Fly to Bangkok (9AM)

Itin 1 is like the original plan. Ok, but IMO day 8 is a bit much with only one night in Takayama. You have removed the long travel day by stopping in Osaka. So it is much more doable, other than you are shorting Takayama.

Itin 2 smells like you are considering a UA itin via SFO to KIX, which I would avoid. But if it is a connection via ICN or NRT then you have options other than Osaka. Like NRT-Takamatsu or OKJ or ICN to Toyama. But if LAX-KIX then I would probably want Osaka- Kanazawa- Naoshima, etc.

Hear you, but the whole rationale for #2 was to get to Kurokawa with as little pain as possible ...and the best way to do that, from what I can see, is to fly there from Komatsu. If we switch the order of cities on #2, that whole plan goes out the window and we'd have to figure out how to get from Naoshima to Kumamoto. That's even beyond my limitations on how much I'd want to travel in one day. Out of curiosity, what's the pain point for you on the SFO-KIX flight?

Naoshima to Kumamoto - that is easy. Ferry or marine taxi to Uno; train or car to Okayama; shinkansen to Kumamoto about 5 hours all in.

Noashima to Kumamoto easy peasy :)

I like number two.,less moving around by far. Save nasu for another trip. You know you'll be back lol

Aloha!

Will, take a map of Japan and draw blue lines on routes for plan one then draw red lines for plan 2 routes. See what I mean? :)

The only thing attracting me to plan 1 is the Four Seasons in Tokyo OMG! ;)

Thanks guys. Even though it helps to know that it's not too long from Naoshima to Kumamoto I guess I'm still trying to figure out what the objection to the planned order of cities I have in itinerary 2 is.

ITINERARY 2.1
Day 1 Depart from LAX
Day 2 Arrive Osaka @ 8 PM
Day 3 Osaka-Kanazawa
Day 4 Kanazawa
Day 5 Kanazawa
Day 6 Day trip to Gokayma/Shirakawago, night in Kanazawa
Day 7 Train/Ferry to Naoshima
Day 8 Naoshima
Day 9 Ferry/Train to Kumamoto
(overnight in Kumamoto)
Day 10 Kurokawa Onsen
Day 11 Kurokawa Onsen
Day 12 Fukuoka
Day 13 Fly to Bangkok (9AM)

Which day in December is Day 1? What airline and connecting airport to get to Osaka (KIX or ITM)? That 8PM KIX arrival sounds like it might be Asiana, LAX-ICN-KIX. What class of service?