Off-shore vs. on-shore exchange rates in Thailand
 

As many of you know, Thailand announced a change in its exchange rates earlier this year, and announced there will be a substantial difference between on-shore and off-shore exchange rates. I'm looking for anyone with recent experience using an ATM in Thailand with the money coming out of a foreign bank (US, UK, Europe, Australia - not an Asian account).

What country and what bank is your account based in? What kind of exchange rate did you get? Basically, was it similar to the listed online rate (before any bank charges) or was it a much worse rate?

It appears from the Thai Visa forum that there are at least some banks that do give the onshore exchange rate when you take money from an ATM, but it appears it may vary from bank to bank.

Kathie, actually there was no announcement such as you describe, and there is no policy on domestic vs offshore rates (the Bank of Thailand couldn't care less about offshore rates). The policy change you're probably referring to was in regards to the remittance of funds from short term investments, and was intended to slow or stop the strengthening of the Baht. The result was a shortage of Baht in international capital markets, and from there the law of supply and demand took over, and increased the value of the Baht outside of Thailand.

The gap got up to five or six Baht at one point, but currently it's down around two Baht. With the current chaos in money markets, exchange rates are fluctuating by up to two Baht in the space of a week. This means a lot depends on WHEN a transaction is processed. Today's 'onshore' rate may be the 'offshore' rate three days from now, when your bank might actually process the debit. So, I don't think it's as simple as which bank you use.

I still have an account at B of A in the US. I used my ATM/debit card to buy some Nok Air tickets last week, and got an exchange rate of 34+ Baht to the $, which is around the current onshore rate.

The only time it makes a different is for the credit card expenses for the US card holders. The local banks are making a huge profit from this. If I could only buy my raw materials with the offshore rate and sell my goods at the onshore rate...

I did use credit cards but not ATM cards. All of the hotels we stayed at in Thailand converted the charge to Thai baht from dollars before charging the credit card - we know this. I just checked my card charges in dollars to the receipt in Thai baht.
The Peninsula Bangkok converted baht to dollars at 33.91. The Anantara Golden Triangle converted baht to dollars at 31.82...looks to me like they made a bit of money on the exchange as the two charges were made 3 days apart and the rate didn't fluctuate hardly at all during that time. I charged another stay at the Peninsula to Japanese yen account and it was converted at 30, the going rate at the time. Looks like the Peninsula is better about using real rates for conversions.

I'd say you need to be careful with credit card charges from hotels as well...Is there any way we can see the conversion rate beforehand that they use? They just always say it will be charged in baht at the prevailing rate...does that mean it's their own prevailing rate?

han---if you did that, then you could afford a new condo across the river, on the "right" side of the river.....

hahaha

Never mind about the exchange rate comment. Thinking that it must be a mistake, I double checked my math...and being the math wizard I am, even with using a calculator I made a mistake. The Anantara's rate was 33.60...similar to the Peninsula. And I am checking the wrong thing.

We should check the price quoted in dollars for booking and then see what it is charged in baht. Doing that now.

Anantara 34.29 (divided baht charge by dollars room rate quoted).

Peninsula 34.27 - easy, written on the bill

JW Marriott PHuket - 33.74

So, they are all about the same.

Thanks, Kim for your math on that question.

I appreciate all the info. I had apparently misunderstood part of this confusing on-shore off-shore thing. And in reading the long thread on Thai visa, it appears I'm not the only one.

I typically use my HSBC card for ATM withdrawals, and use AmEX and a Chase Mileage Plus Visa card for charges. I'l be interested to see what kind of exchange rate I get on these.

Kathie,

You'll get something close to the current onshore rate for your card expenses. When the local Thai banks, who are the "middleman" in these transactions, pay the US credit card companies they can transfer Baht out of the country and convert it offshore into USD. It's very hard for the regular folks to transfer out Baht!

Ok, Kim, now you have to compare those three rates versus the rates that your cc bank used to convert the THB charges to USD.

Or compare the amount in USD charged to your card, minus fees, with the quoted rate. If it is a Visa card then the amount might include a 1% conversion fee that Visa charges.

OK..
.Anantara - AMEX converted baht to dollars at 33.60 (fee included...I can't figure out how to determine how much the fee is....1%?)

Peninsula - Citibank converted baht to dollars at 34.21 (fee excluded)

JWMarriott - Citibank converted baht to dollars at 34.16 (fee excluded).

Japanese Post Office Visa card converted baht to yen at 29.29/100 yen and no fees.

fyi---amex has included a 2% charge for years in their conversions....

kim---those seem like good rates based on what we have been hearing...

how about any atm withdrawals using a usa bank?? maybe you only have japanese bank??

We carry cash and TC's for money. Our Japan Post account has a fee for use outside the Japanese system, and we don't keep money in a US account for withdrawal like that...so no experience.

Then there is no significant difference between the rates that the Pen and JWM used versus the Citibank rates.

A $100 charge at the Pen cost you $100 plus 6 baht. Or about $100.17

That's a difference of less than one-fifth of one percent.

For a $100 charge at JWM, though, you made a profit. They charged 3374 baht but the bank converted your $100 in credit to 3416 baht. You would have made 42 baht per $100 through the two exchanges. Actually would be a discount. And a nice one, currency exchange-wise, at about $1.22 per $100 and probably a mistake in there somewhere. But still a trivial amount.

For $100 at Anantara you paid $100 plus 69 baht. At the Amex rate, that's $102.05, so they are getting some extra juice, or the hotel wasn't keeping current.

I have been in and out of Asia, in particular Thailand, many times over the past 11 years and have always found that I get the best exchange rate when I change my money in Thailand. I find the rates available when you change money in a different country to be quite a bit less than what you can get at the airport.

Thailand changes their exchange rates every day, today you get one rate, tomorrow the rate may be a little different (up or down) but not by much! I don't find a lot of difference between the various banks that change money over. There are lots of large banks and mini banks all over Bangkok and major cities that clearly post the exchange rates for that particular day. Hotels, stores and street vendors usually have a lower rate than what you can get in a bank (unless someone screwed up!)

Big notes like $100 bills get a little more than a $5 bill. Thailand is one place that the exchange rate is a tiny bit more for travelers checks over cash - but the difference is really small!

If you do bring travelers checks I would stick with the larger denominations like $100 or 100 Euro sizes. Any leftover Thai baht can be changed back to your home currency at the airport. With travelers checks you do pay a 33 baht commission to exchange the money over - this is still much cheaper than ATM fees! You don't want to pay a lot of fees for cashing very small denomination travelers checks.

When you use an ATM to get cash I would avoid a lot of small withdrawals and take out the maximum to cut down on lots of ATM fees. Remember you can change any leftover Thai baht back to your currency at the airport.

I avoid using credit cards for any purchases overseas. I use cash. I keep credit cards with me for emergencies only! In particular I would avoid using a credit card for any cheap purchases like in restaurants or small shops - this cuts down on the chance of credit card fraud. Use cash for cheap purchases! Some credit cards have big ATM fees and interest too!

When I need more cash I use a debit card. My debit card is through a credit union which pays for the first 5 ATM charges per month and around $2 for other ATM withdrawals. Take out the maximum to avoid fees. My credit union also sells travelers checks free of commission for their members. When I go on a trip overseas I pick up some travelers checks fee free! I move some money from my bank account to my credit union account to cover any expected cash needs when I am out of the country.

Remember to notify your credit or debit card provider that you will be overseas. Some banks may deny an ATM cash withdrawals from overseas thinking that the card is stolen. I used to read on some of the other Asia travel forums that some ATM's may not accept more than 4 pin numbers.

Use the security box in your hotel to safeguard your cash and valuables. You can record the serial numbers of travelers checks and hundred dollar bills on the internet in an email to yourself. If your TC's come up missing you will have a record of their serial numbers real handy. You can also use an email to record trip itineraries, flight schedules and accounting data and other must remember info. Thailand and most other Asian countries have lots of internet shops all over.

Hal

Mr.W, you aren't taking into consideration daily currency fluctuations.

When this on-shore/off-shore issue will really impact is when we're ready to buy a condo and have to transfer (lots of) money to a Thai bank!

Kathie,

You could always buy Euro, Yen etc and transfer those instead.

Isn't the money transfer issue the same no matter what foreign currency you hold?

Or do you think they will hold their value better?

Exactly...It can make a BIG difference when it comes to purchasing a condo when you're talking possibly 5-10 million baht.

Regarding the use of debit cards ...well just make sure they will work in Thailand. I'm not really a debit card person, for overseas use, except the Bangkok Bank visa debit card, but I do have a U.S. issued credit union debit card, but almost never use. So, this past trip, a couple of weeks ago, I thought I'd take the credit union debit card and pay my serviced apartment rent with it since the credit union doesn't charge the 3%. So, I drove to the credit union, handed the check to deposit to the credit union person, in person, and said that I'd be in Bangkok and was only depositing the money to use there. That debit card is not connected to my automatic deposit pay checks that go to a major bank. So, I felt a little easier about it.
The person who helped me noted, in the computer, that I'd be in BK so that if I used my card it would work.
Well, I got to BK, gave the folks at my serviced apartment building the card and it didn't work. I told them to run it again because I'd just been in the credit union in person and was told that everything was all set.
So, the whole time in Bangkok, the card wouldn't work. I was really ticked to say the least. So, thank goodness for AmExp Platinum and Optima. I used them along with cash, traveler's checks, and money in my Bangkok Bank account.
The other day, I called the credit union...not in the best of moods...and told them what had happened. The response was that Thailand, along with Malaysia and another country...I think Indonesia...is on the list of high fraud and the card will not work in those countries. Singapore was not on the list, I was told. So, I had a dead card, the credit union had my money, and I couldn't access it. So, I have taken the money OUT and sent it back over to my major bank account where my debit card always works. Happy Travels!

Kathie,

At the moment it's the same since the Bank of Thailand is strictly controlling the outflow of the Baht.

I would wait until after the next Thai election and see who will be running the country. Some political party want a strong Baht and some want the opposite.

Ps. Will you have housewarming party?

No, I didn't take into account any daily fluctuation because it was not really applicable to the comparison I was making.

The comparison is between what the hotel (a non-financial institution) used versus Citibank and Amex.

The average daily fluctuation so far this year in .16 baht per dollar. That is about a half-penny per dollar. Or 50 cents per $100.

The Anantara rate looks like it was practically a straight exchange, but with a small (not untypical) difference between when the charge was made and when the bank did the exchange. But I don't think that is what the $.17 per $100 was, I don't think it was a daily fluctuation.

I'm going to guess that the charge at the Anantara was made on a Saturday, or maybe on a Sunday.

The JWM rate almost certainly involves some error. Maybe the hotel person dropped a couple of decimal places. Or used an old rate. It is trivial amount on a $1000 bill, imo, but would be significant on a big transaction. It is a reasonable error.

The Amex charge looks like there probably is a 1% conversion fee, plus some error (using a 2-day or older rate I would consider an error).

The Anantara charge was made on Thursday, August 30. It posted right away.

I checked the JW Marriott bill again and recalculated...dollar amount of room charge divided by amount charged in baht and got again 33.74.

In future, though we hate to carry money with us, we might just pay rather than charge hotels.

Hanuman, of course we'll have a housewarming party! And of course you're invited!

I'm glad we aren't at the point of transferring money yet. We hope to find a little time to look at condos when we're in Bangkok in November. We are at least two years away from this move. At some point, we'll likely do a trip to Bangkok just to look at condos and maybe townhouses. Guen sent us the brochures on the River. That is going to be quite a building!

We have a couple of condos as investment in Jomtien Beach and have seen the values go up 3 fold within about 7/8 years. But you can still buy good condos in the 2.5 to 3m range easily, basic studios go from 1m and up, though those are very basic, in the 2.5 to say 3.5m range there are a lot of nice places.

James, when we were in Bangkok last year, we picked up a brochure for some new condos in Jomtien. The prices are certainly lower than Bangkok and the place really looked lovely.

kathie---tere are several nice projects in jontiem....we may look at some in june....you might like a couple of days at the sheraton there also....it is very nice....

It's pretty easy to get to especialy with the new BKK Airport, it really has become 'condo beach' with many new developments. Like Real Estate anywhere in the world you need to take care. When we bought it was from 'completed' developments that were well established that already were mosty sold and in fact had been up a year or so, in both cases buying from the last few remaining and buying from the developers themselves.
Buying was a 'breeze', done in a day ( in reality both times nothing more than 4-5 hours ).

Next time it's worth a look, I know Bob has been thinking of the idea of a winter stay which makes sense to have a good look around.
I think it fair to say that requirements for condo purchase locations differ from 'pure' vacationers. You look for facilities, convenience, hospitals etc.
We live in a house, and I could never imagine living in a condo, but as a vacation home for those who look forward to a long stay a few times a year the benefits are obvious.
The 'maintenance fees' we pay are very very low ( I'm talking for 1 of them about US$150 a year, the other is higher at about $300 a year ), but that includes security, large swimming pool, building insurance etc etc.
The Real estate tips are same as anywhere, a developer who already has several other completed properties over a period of years that are runnning fine and in good condition.

A clever idea is to view 'rentals' in their other developments so you can have a good look-see at condition and maintenance of the buildings.

The purchase proceedure is just a few easy steps, will be glad to lay them out if anyone interested, but it is literaly just hours hours from bank to keys. Only real time is any wait at the Registration Office, but all done by the book, easy yet efficient. You can full Thai ownsership documentation and it is all 'registered' at the Government office.

You were posting as I was typing Bob !

James A...I assume you're talking a 2.5-3.5 million baht price range only in Jomtien...not Bangkok...as Bangkok condos are averaging out at about 81,000 baht per square meter which would price an average one-bedroom at around 5 million baht...if located in a convenient area.
For investment, I can understand Jomtien. But if one wants to live in Bangkok, and near a skytrain station then 5 million baht as a starting price is pretty normal unless maybe on the Silom-north skytrain line. Happy Travels!

Yes, I'm only talking about Jomtien Beach, some new ones going up with sea views 56-65 sqm are around 2.8-3.2m in Jomtien area. Starting from basic 38 sqm studios in the 1.2-1.5 range.
So around 2.5-3.5 gets a fair sized place, but of course prime positions, good sea views at the top end.

How many hours does it take to get to Jomtien, by car, from Bangkok? I have friends interested in property in Thailand and they're open to different areas. Maybe I'll check it out in Dec/Jan. Happy Travels!

Via the motorway, you can get to Jomtien in about 2 to 2.5 hours. It's just the other side of the hill from Pattaya.

OK...That might work out just fine since I wanted to go down to Pattaya to check out one of my sister's condo time shares there. Maybe I can knock out two birds with one stone. Happy Travels!

Guenmai-What is the name of your sisters timshare in Pattaya|??? We traded to one there called Chateau Dale Beach Resort. I E-mailed them at least 5 times to arrange for transfer from BKK-No response. Luckily the friends who are traveling with us have a time share in Jomtein Beach & her resort answered.
We fly out October 4th for a month to Thailand & Bali & I want to thank you all for all your helpfull information -Chris

guen, go down to pattaya and stay overnite at the sheraton....it is quite fabulous, unlike the ROS...

i can just see you holding court in the open air lobby....

Total time depends where in BKK you are leaving from, time of day/day of week etc. There are various ways out on the way.
From the Airport it's a turn onto the elevated expressway and that is very wide and at a reasonable spead you "eat up the km/miles" quickly, the highway drops down and then onwards, some would say 90 mins but it depends on getting to the actual specific location.

There is the 'local' airport, U-Tapao, but with the new BKK so close it's not that busy at all, but from Jomtien it's about 40 mins leisurely drive and it is terminal wise what you might term 'local municipal airport',
type of place where you park, walk in, check in and relax inside 5 mins tops!

There is a Bangkok Airways flight ( ATR turbo-props )daily to Samui that continues to Phuket and also a daily non-stop to Phuket, so for anyone wanting to take a trip from the area down to Samui/Phuket it is 'easy'.
I took some trips a few months back and after large airports it really is almost 'calming' to go through U-Tapao.

So a couple of days down south in a pleasant break and very 'easy'.

Utapao- Samui : 1 hr
Utapao- Phuket: 1 hr 30

Although Bangkok Airways, the fares are quite reasonable especialy if you started adding on costs to/from BKK airport.

james she stays at the emporium suites in room #___________....how much time also to go down in the elevator...

The non stop to Phuket might not be daily in low season, but even via Samui it's quick, about 20 mins stop on Samui then 45-50 onwards.

Beniciachris - Chateau Dale is one of the 'up market' places, I am 'guessing' there is only the 1, however, there are so many developments and devleopers often use the very same name, or a slight variation on a name, , View Talay which used to be just 2 condo blocks not have I believe 7 in total, different locations, so I excuse if Chateau Dale has more than 1, but if not :
from just outside Chateau Dale the baht-Bus/Songthaews ( pick-up with seats in the back ) ply 'non stop' down to the main beach road at Jomtien and other direction over the hill to Pattaya. It's about 500 m from the beach road.
Lotus is a very large mall with excellent supermarket about 5 mins to stock up the condo, walk south to the lights and trun left and then pick up a Baht-bus there upt to Lotus on the main road, although local convenience are everywhere, but a trip to Lotus would be worthwhile to stock with drinks, snacks etc.

Image Cars Jomtien are an 'up market'( expensive ) limo service but if you want comfort and style they are good, along the road between Chateau and the beach raod.

Do go to Alangkarn Show, pretty amazing,
http://www.alangkarnthailand.com/theatre.htm


The large shows in Pattaya ( Tiffany's and Alcazar ) you can get to on the baht Bus/Songthaews, hop off in Central Pattaya and then get another one heading north past Tiffany's and Alcazar

Koh Larn is a popular island trip, Nong Nooch Park another nice trip.

You don't need a 'tour' to do Koh Larn, the boats go from Pattaya Pier in the morning, but this gives you an idea:

http://www.orientalescape.com/thaila...al_island.html

If you like 'swimways' Pattaya Park is quite near but the baht-Bus needs to divert from main route so you pay for a 'special' but only takes 5 mins, you pay for the day but get stamped in out.

http://www.pattayapark.com/module.php?id=water_park

You can also sail down from Pattaya Tower, what is somewhat amusing is that to ride the elevator they offer 'one way', never figured that out !

http://www.pattayapark.com/module.php?id=tower

Fair properties are neaby in front of View Talay at Jomtien which is just past you if you want to browse real estate in the area or get ideas for any future condo visits

http://www.fairproperties.com/