A carrier task force circling just off Myanmar waters will keep the junta at bay!

H-unless I'm mistaken, the US forces are other-wise engaged. There are only so many carrier task forces to go around.

Some of us can recall how sympathetic the US was to Buddhist monks in Viet Nam during the '60's.

Reports that internet cafes have been shut down, along with cellular networks, so the news flow will diminish and we may not learn what has happened for a long time.

Had hoped the soldiers would not fire on the monks -- would in fact "do the right thing" and shoot their officers down if necessary. So much for idealism . . .

I sincerely doubt that W & Laura's concern is what launched the protests. Perhaps it gave the people a feeling of solidarity with other parts of the world but this is one case where the violence cannot be blamed on Bush. For all of Bush's ills, and there are many, I do believe his heart is in the right place when it comes to Burma. (Believe me, I don't give any praise to this man easily, in fact, this is probably as close as I've ever come to saying anything good about him!) As for whether or not sanctions are a good idea, I really don't know, but what else can we really do from half a world away? Unfortunately, sanctions won't mean much without China and other countries in the region on board, If it's only the U.S. and Europe, it just won't have much of an impact.

I hope the people of Burma don't give up. As I hinted to earlier, they must be willing to fight and even die for freedom if they truly want it. They are such a lovely and gentle people and I'm not sure they will not give up but I hope not. Freedom doesn't always come easily but I believe it's one of the few things worth fighting for.

We'll said, Laurie. If nothing else, the Bushes, especially Laura with a recent op-ed in the WS Journal, have brought attention to the situation to a broader segment of the American public.

Until today, relatively few Japanese people knew much, if anything at all about the situation in Burma. But the shooting of a Japanese photographer yesterday afternoon has put it right on the front page...which is a bit of good coming from an otherwise senseless death. The Japanese government's position, however, comes across as weak and lacking conviction - "It was extremely regrettable that the accident occurred as a result of a crackdown on protests," Chief Cabinet Secretary Nobutaka Machimura said on a televised news show on NHK. "We urge (Myanmar) to respond calmly." Maybe that will change as well. Myanmar citizens living in Japan and also some who are seeking refugee status in Japan have been protesting in Nagoya and Tokyo...hoping to encourage the Japanese gov't to take stronger action.

I suspect Bush doesn't even know where Burma is -- probably thinks it's near Hawaii. Now I certainly don't think he is responsible for anything going on in Burma but I also don't think he could find it on a map and is completely clueless as to what is going on and why-- clueless about the country, its culture, religion and history.

Just received this email. If even a small portion of it is true it is horrendous.But,unfortunately, I suspect more of it is true than not.

> 9:11 PM, Sep 27, Washington DC
> 7:41 AM, Sep 28, Rangoon
>
> About 200 Protesters Killed, over 700 Arrested and Hospitals
> Instructed not to send Ambulances, Snipers Used to Shoot at Leaders
>
> I have reported this morning that numbers of arrest were about 150.
> However, I was wrong. According to several eye witness accounts,
> number of arrest yesterday night was more than 700 and number of death
> was more than two hundreds. Please see the details below.
>
> (1) Yesterday night (Sep 27 in Rangoon), the junta's security forces
> have raided some major Monasteries in Rangoon, Mandalay, Pakkoku,
> Sittwe, Mon Ywar and many other cities. In Rangoon, we can confirm
> that at least a dozen of Monasteries in Tamwe, Thingangyun, South
> Okkalapa, Bahan and North Okkalapa Townships. Soldiers came at
> midnight or early morning and entered the monastery compounds with
> force. Then they run to the monasteries as they were trying to occupy
> the enemy camps, by shooting, shouting and beating anyone on their
> ways and destroying and stealing all belongings. A number of monks
> were killed and several others were severely injured during the raids.
> In Rangoon alone, over seven hundred monks were arrested yesterday
> night.
>
> (2) Five eye witnesses told me about the raid at the Ngwe Kyar Yan
> Monastery in South Okkalapa Township. Several hundreds of soldiers
> came quietly with 24 trucks at midnight. They stopped the trucks
> nearby the Monastery and run into the Monastery with shouting dirty
> words. Then they broke the door and entered the compound. Some monks
> fought back by throwing stones at them, but they were not able to
> resist the brutal attack of the soldiers, who are trained to kill.
> They also fired several shots at monks. Everybody in the neighborhood
> heard the voices of gun fires, shouting, crying, etc. At 2:00 AM, the
> soldiers left the compound with over 200 monks whom they have
> captured. Nobody dared to go out as they needed to obey the curfew
> order. In the morning today when they went to the Monasteries, they
> saw the bloods everywhere and all buildings were destroyed. Some monks
> told them that senior Abbot of the Monastery and three other monks
> were killed by gun-shots and beating and soldiers brought their dead
> bodies. About 50 monks were left at the monastery with severe trauma
> and injuries and people from neighborhood tried to cure injuries they
> have sustained. However, soldiers came again at 10:30 AM in the
> morning to pick up the rest of monks. They announced with
> loud-speakers to the public to move away from the monastery and they
> took the monks with the trucks they were riding. Thousands of angry
> people blocked the road from front and back of them and asked the
> soldiers to leave the monks alone. Tense confrontation between angry
> crowd and the soldiers lasted two hours with shooting fire and tear
> gas by the soldiers and throwing stones by the people from 11:00 AM to
> 1:00 PM. Then additional troops came in with several trucks, fired
> several warning shots in the air and threatened to shoot at the crowd.
> Finally, the angry people decided to give way to the soldiers and they
> left from the street. Ngwe Kyar Yan Monastery is very respected by the
> residents for its discipline, Buddhist teaching and its cooperation
> with the residents. This Monastery is also famous for its
> participation in the 1988 popular democracy uprising in Burma.
>
> (3) The other monasteries, including Meggin Monastery in Thingangyun
> Township, Sasana Veikman, Sasana Gonyi and Sasana Theikpan monasteries
> in Bahan Township, were also raided with same fashion by the soldiers
> at yesterday night and at least, seven hundred monks were brutally
> attacked and arrested by the soldiers in Rangoon alone.
>
> (4) As the news of the soldiers' raids on the monasteries and
> casualties and arrest of monks spread all over the city, angry people
> came to the streets to challenge the junta for its injustices today,
> Sep 27. Hundred of thousands of people came to streets and confronted
> with blood-thirsty soldiers at various parts of the city. Security
> forces mercilessly fired at the crowd, threw tear gas and smoke bombs
> at the crowd and beaten the crowd with batons and rifle butts.
> Hundreds of the peaceful protesters were killed by soldiers nearby
> Sule Pagoda, at Bahan, at Thingangyun, at State High School No.3 in
> Tamwe Township, etc. The Rangoon General Hospital has received over
> 100 dead bodies today.
>
> (5) Eye witnesses said that soldiers fired with automatic rifles at
> State High School No. 3 in Tamwe Township. Now is the examination
> period in Burma and the school was full with young students who were
> sitting for an examination and their parents who were waiting for
> their kids. Actually, soldiers shot at the student protesters who were
> staging peaceful protest in front the school and bullets flied into
> the school randomly. About one hundred students and their parents were
> killed.
>
> (6) Hospitals in Rangoon are instructed by the junta not to send
> ambulances to anywhere unless they have permission from the authority.
> Some angry doctors confronted with Dr. Kyaw Myint, the junta's
> minister of health and they were told to obey the order. Numbers of
> death became more as victims were not able hospitalized in time.
>
> (7) Among the death, one is the Japanese photographer who worked for
> AFP. Sources said that another foreigner, a German national, was also
> killed and an American sustained gun-shot wound.
>
> (8) NLD leaders were also arrested yesterday night. NLD CEC U Hla Pe
> and a spokesperson U Myint Thein were taken into custody by police. U
> Hla Pe's son died by a shock just 15 minutes after his father was
> taken. Two ethnic leaders, U Pu Chin Sian Thang and U Htaung Ko Thang
> were also arrested along with NLD Rangoon Divisional Organizing
> Committee Members Dr. Win Naing, U Hla Thein and U Than Naing.
> According to NLD, over 40 NLD members were arrested.
>
> (9) According to various sources, several leaders of the protest were
> killed by snipers, who shot them from above nearby Sule Pagoda. They
> believed that snipers shot those whom they thought as the leaders of
> the protest from the roof top of the Rangoon City Hall.
>
> (10) Meanwhile, remaining leaders of All Burma Monks' Alliance, the 88
> Generation Students, the 88 Generation Journalists, All Burma Poets
> Group, formed a coalition called "Supervising Committee for Mass
> Movement" and called for the people of Burma to continue the peaceful
> protest.
>
> (11) A leader of All Burma Monks' Alliance, U Gambiya, spoke to VOA
> Burmese Service from his hiding place this evening and he condemned
> the military junta for arrest and killing. He encouraged the people of
> Burma not to surrender the will of the junta.
>
> (12) As the SPDC continues to combat the protesters in day time and
> raid the Monasteries and homes of leading dissidents at night, the
> number of arrest will exceed dramatically over the current number over
> 1,000 since August 19, 2007. As of this writing, some monasteries in
> South Dagon Myothit, a Seattleite town of Rangoon, are being
> surrounded by several hundreds of soldiers.
>
> Aung Din
> U.S. Campaign for Burma
> [email protected]

Thanks, Gloria, for posting this very sad information.

We need to just go in there and take out those crazy thugs.

Gloria - thanks for the information. NPR is reporting that internet and phone contact is pretty much shut down, only surprise is that it took so long. Also that demonstrations were much smaller and that the key monasteries are surrounded.

degas - isn't going to happen. If the US (you did mean the US, right?) invades anywhere else anytime soon it will be Iran. Plus China might not be happy with US troops in its backyard.

Here is the latest analysis from the Associated Press:

http://tinyurl.com/34zewq

thursdays, yeah, I might the US. The UN doesn't have the guts to do it. Tough if China worries about US troops on its border, we should just liberate the people.

All the US has to do is withdraw all its troops from Iraq and Afganistan and there will lenty of troops to liberate Myanmar. Remind me again, how much oil is there in Myanmar? Exactly.

The Panda should note that there are plenty of natural resources in Myanmar worth controlling - just ask China. And how about that $2 billion oil pipeline to the Middle East they want to build on the Myanmar coast - that would certainly help quench its thirst for energy during a period of international conflict.

China aside, I don't think the world would look kindly on the US invading yet another country no matter how noble the intentions...

So the answer to "How much oil is there in Myanmar?" is dependent on counting a non-existent pipeline? The point is that Myanmar is not sufficiently strategic to warrant a US invasion.

Unfortunately for Myanmar, you are absolutely right.

I think ANYONE helping now with their voice and deeds should be encouraged and not scorned because of political differences. This is not the time for that imho.

Just got an email from moveon.org asking to sign a petition to the UN Security Council. Moveon has a huge database of activists so the fact that they are using it for Burma gives hope -- it's the one difference between now and 1988. This time at least a few people are hearing about it.

Well said HT. It is too bad we have not seen a non-partisan effort on this. I don't think a moveon.org petition is the answer.

I posted this on the Lounge thread, but this seems to be the one that people are following.

I read in The Scotsman this morning that the EU is threatening to boycott the Olympics next year if China doesn't intervene.

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/inte...?id=1549412007

moveon.org has a definite political agenda in the U.S. But they also use their database for issues that should be completely non partisan -- Burma, Darfur etc. I don't think they are the answer but at least they are trying which is more than most other organizations are doing.

I've been finding this thread, with all the links, the best way to keep current on the tragedy unfolding in Burma. Thanks for keeping this on-going.

I am still confused about the issue of boycotts. Sometime yesterday I heard on one news report that the pro-democracy movement's 'official' stance is for boycotts as a way of showing solidarity with the movement. Does anyone know if this is accurate?

There is a big difference of opinion about this among advocates. many support a boycott. Others feel it hurts more than it helps because the rich get around it and the poor just get poorer.At least from the west. I think everyone believes that pressure from China would make a difference.

"The Lady" did call for a boycott. However, many democracy advocates believe that she would not say that today if she knew its ramifications. I do know that both times I was in Burma I never met one person who felt that the boycott was helping. But like most huge problems, there is no one right way to deal with it or solve it which is why there is a divergence of opinions on this one.

The question of a boycott has become a real hard call. I've always been dead set against a boycott. I visited Burma a few years ago and was sure it was the correct thing to do. But the events of the last few days has caused me to think about it and I just don't know anymore. If tourism dried up, would that hurt the junta? Would it make them think about what they are doing? No one knows the answers to these questions. But Gloria is correct, no one I met in Burma said we should have stayed away, they were grateful we came to their country. Would they feel that way today? Who knows. I wish I had the answer.

Tourism doesn't mean squat to the military junta at this point. The junta are making billions on the sale of natural gas and other natural resources to China, India, Thailand and Singapore so if no tourists showed up, so what. I don't believe that the military junta thinks about anything - they are just a bunch of stupid thugs. The Burmese people need us and will continue to welcome us.

I completely agree with Craig. In fact I suspect the government would be happy to keep westerners out. It will be interesting to see what they do about visas in the future. They want to keep the country as isolated as possible.

Unconfirmed report of soldier mutineers:

"The organisation Helfen ohne Grenzen (Help without Frontiers) is reporting that "Soldiers from the 66th LID (Light Infantry Divison) have turned their weapons against other government troops and possibly police in North Okkalappa township in Rangoon and are defending the protesters. At present unsure how many soldiers involved."

http://www.newsdeskspecial.co.uk/burma/

There may also have been a coup deposing the number one general . . .

One can only hope.

here's to hoping

http://tinyurl.com/2hsnp2

Video shows Japanese journalist Kenji Nagai 'being shot deliberately'

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle2550369.ece

Craig,

Is this what you were telling us about?

http://www.irrawaddymedia.com/news/news_sept29_01.php

Craig, I understand what you are saying and I think you are correct, but I can't help wondering if our going there is telling the junta, wrongly so in many cases, that we aren't concerned with the oppression caused. That our travel there is perhaps seen as a tacit approval of, or at least not disapproving of the regime. I would hate for it to be interpreted that way. There are people who go and really don't think about the situation and that's fine for them, I'm certainly not going to sit here in judgment with a holier than thou attitude, but that's not me. Why I would care what a bunch of thugs think, I'm not sure. All I'm saying is, the question is more muddied than before.

HT - yup, that's what I'm talking about.

Laurie, my take on this is that nothing has changed about the regime - its response was pretty much predictable - so nothing has changed about my opinion about going there. I appreciate your thoughts...

Are you guys coming to Boston for the GTG?

Yeah, we'll be there. Looking forward to seeing you and everyone else.

What is your take on the rumors of a coup? I fear it's all wishful thinking...

Kathie,

In every rumor there is a glimmer of truth somewhere. I know that Gen Maung Aye is just as ruthless as Than Shwe but is the only one of the four who sympathizes with the old ways thus is the only one protecting ASSK. His soldiers guard her.

There is no doubt that as Than Shwe gets sicker and older some form of change is coming sooner now than later. Hopefully the happenings of the past weeks will hasten that. It could be that Maung Aye is positioning himself to be the savior of his countries time. There is hope there. Wouldn't bet on it though.

Just glad to see that media coverage continues as the UN's Ibrahim Gambari attempts to meet Myanmar junta leaders. ABC News had a blurb on it tonight within the first 10 minutes of the broadcast.

AC360 on CNN is showing footage smuggled out of Myanmar - definitely a brutal crackdown, which seems to have worked.

Listened to NPR's Newshour tonight and they had Priscilla Clapp and a Chinese professor on. They pretty much agreed with each other.

Priscilla Clapp was the Chief of Mission (no "ambassador" title) in Burma from 1999-2002.

Both said that the role of China has been much overblown in the West and that we should not look to China to have that much influence on the Burmese government. Their point is an excellent one - that the generals who are in power at the moment got there partially by defeating the Burmese Communists, who were supported by the Chinese Communists. So, these two countries have been warily circling each other rather than being the bosom buddies that some would make them out to be.

Nevertheless, China does have a major role to play, particularly in bringing the various sides together. Other countries, such as Thailand and India, should not be ruled out either.

The best avenue seems to be the UN, whose envoy has been able to meet with Aung San Suu Kyi twice and will meet with General Than Shwe.

You can listen to their discussion on NPR.

Let us wish these gentle and dignified people a quick resolution to their crisis.

Very sad to watch that CNN footage. As for China, I believe its influence on Myanmar is more monetary than political. However, calls for sanctions have gone unheeded...

If you subscribe either in print or on line to the Wall Street Journal there have been several excellent articles and Op-Eds in recent days including an interesting history of the military junta that covers how and why it operates as it does in the October 1 issue.