Tough crowd over there on the Europe board.

It's me the OP over on the Europe board. I don't get it. The problem is that there are 2 boards only--Europe & Asia. Hard to differentiate when those are the only choices. Lonely Planet at least has their continents broken down into sub areas.

Did I say anywhere that I didn't like Vietnam? No. Did I generalize about all of Asia? No. Did I say we would never visit anywhere in Asia again? No.

Did I say our next trip won't be to Asia and will be somewhere more relaxing? Yes. Did I say the poverty was disturbing? Yes. Did I say the noise, numbers of people and dirt eventually got to us? Yes. Did I say all of us who are well-off (which anyone who can afford to travel is) should count our blessings that our lives are so easy in comparison to many of those who live in 3rd world countries? Yes.

I guess if that makes me an Asia basher so be it.

Thanks for all the help and advice those of you here have given me.

Congrats on the thread on the Europe board. Really. Over 135 replies. You provoked a lot of discussion about travel and many people expressed their attitudes on their travel experiences and compare with others.

Guess so many of you here have been so helpful in the past that a few rsponses to individuals who I am just becoming acquainted with are in order.

lcuy--"In addition, the OP seemed to bring the wrong shoes and clothes, had a bad guide, got to Hanoi on the day the museums were all closed, and did homestays in very primitive locations."

Sounds like you've been doing some background checking. Did I ever say that my trip was bad because my clothes and shoes were wrong? No. I gave suggestions to others to help them out in their planning. Yes, we had one bad guide and two superb guides, but did I ever say that I was going to bash Asia because of a bad tour guide? You seem to have created that notion. Yup. Museums were closed on the day we were in Hanoi. You've got to be kidding if you think that fact would make or break a trip.
"Fascinating travel opportunities, and she admits they wanted to do a gritty, non- tourist type trip. To put down all of Asia, using this trip as a comparison to one spent relaxing at French cafes is rather silly.
Now judge the Paris visit against a stay at the Peninsula in Bangkok, getting massages and scrubs at Face, sipping cocktails at a pool, eating fabulous meals for under $50, with a private driver to take you out and about, shopping at SJ...... Or judge it against a stay at a ryokan in Kyoto during cherry blossom season. Then you're comparing apples with apples!!"

We always do budget-oriented, non-tourist type trips in Europe, and we've biked and hiked in remote rural regions of Europe. The kind of trip you are describing as an apt comparison, isn't an apt comparison for us because what you're describing isn't what we typically do in Europe either. With the exception of parts of the Maramures in Romania and a remote region of southern Poland, we've always been able to find cafes for a glass of wine or relaxation, and these are the cafes of the common people, not just the elite. Paris was the comparison only in your mind. There is much more to Europe too than just Paris, which you seem to assume I'm referring to.

Cicerone-- "And people without money in the US ain't doing so well from what I have seen, I could give her a tour of Newark that would make Vietnam look like a walk down Park Avenue; of course we would need a police escort for Newark, which is not the case for Vietnam..."

You're right that you wouldn't need to worry about a police escort in Vietnam because Vietnam is a repressive socialist country. Move there if you think that would be an improved political system. Are there people in Newark who don't have indoor plumbing or whose children aren't in school because there is no free public education? And, are there those who work in a muddy, rice field from sun-up to sun-down 7 days a week, 365 days a year without cease just to ensure that they have a bit of daily rice? And are there children who quit school (if they've even begun) to go to work at age 8? I think we have child labor laws in this country whereas Vietnam doesn't. Sure there is poverty in the US (and I live in a major city not the burbs, and I've visited Appalachia) but your comments betray some naivete. When 25% of the population in Vietnam lives below the internationally recognized poverty line and only 41% of the population there has access to improved sanitation, then I think one can rightly talk about the poverty in Vietnam (as I was doing).

Crosscheck--"The OP signed up for an edgy trip and ended up generalizing about a whole continent. We didn't get to Vietnam, but thought SE Asia (including rural Cambodia) seemed clean, orderly and efficient compared to parts of Mexico and Venezuela, where I used to live."

Well, I didn't generalize about a whole continent even though so many of you seem to think so. My comments were about Vietnam. Just as you can't comment about Vietnam because you've never been there, I can't speak to Venezuela because I've never been there. But, I've visited way, way off the beaten path remote, rural areas of the Yucatan, and I can tell you this this was much, much less sanitary and more litter strewn with worse living conditions, and I've seen some pretty bad ones in Mexico.

Hanuman--if you really paid E1000 a night for a hotel room in Paris, we don't even live on the same planet.

rkkwan & hawaiiantraveler--
We picked Vietnam because we had heard it is a beautiful and fascinating country that is like what Thailand was like before it taken over by the tourist industry with its 4* & 5* resorts and hotels. Visiting those settings, no matter where in the world, just isn't our cup of tea.

mrwunrfl--When did I say we didn't enjoy our homestay in Bac Ha? You too are generalizing about all of Europe being Paris.

Finally--we made a much different type of trip than those of you who pamper yourselves in exclusive, pricey areas that cater to wealthy westerners. I can't imagine the complaining some of you would have been doing if you had stayed where we stayed. And, guess what? I haven't bitched anywhere on these boards about the primitive conditions we stayed in. I merely said that I am very fortunate not to have to live my whole life in such conditions. Perhaps some of you also need to take a look in the mirror and think about who you are and how privileged you are in comparison to the rest of the world. Don't you feel at all guilty when paying $100 a night for a hotel room when that is 1/5 of the average annual income in Vietnam?

Well now I'm thinking this whole conversation belongs on the Lonely Planet Thorn Tree Forum, although us Asia board folk have been pretty much in support of the OP.

julies, I think what got you into hot water was the title of your post. While you may not feel you were comparing Asia and Europe, that's what your title said.

Thanks for the tip Kathie--

But there is a problem. If there are only 2 forum categories--Asia & Europe--those are obviously the categories posts have to refer to. If I wanted to develop a more specific parallel, I would have had to say something like Italy lovers visit Vietnam. That wasn't the case, so now you see why I posted what I did.

What got things hopping, I feel, was those people who don't read thoroughly, who jump to conclusions, who are offended if someone else's viewpoint doesn't agree with their own, and who make generalizations based on their own preconceptions.

Julie,

Kathie's right - Your post title was misleading. It also struck me as a generalization when you wrote:

"I’m now perusing the Europe board again and thinking of another trip there rather than another Asian destination for our next trip. The idea of sitting around relaxing in a nice café in an appealing setting with a bottle of wine sounds pretty good right now."

I think everyone here is very interested in different points of view. That's one reason why we all travel.

When the dust settles I would love to hear more about your fascinating trip.

Oh, ok. When you said that the home visits were awkward and you were bored and the homestays were primitive I just thought that maybe you didn't like that. My mistake.

You can title your posts any way you please. Maybe a more accurate title would have been "Europe lovers give Vietnam a try for their first trip to Asia." Or something like that...but it's very pragmatic..."Europe lovers gave Asia a try this time around - thoughts..." in my opinion sets the tone that 1. you visited more than one country in Asia, because everyone knows one country is not a whole continent and 2. you didn't like it, because when you said "this time around" you are already implying that you won't be going back anytime soon.

In your post itself, I didn't feel you said anything that was not true, but generalized in a way that someone who has been a tourist somewhere for 2 weeks could not really be in a position to generalize about. I could see a bit of myself 10 years ago in what you wrote. 10 years ago we vacationed outside of Japan in Asia for the first time and went to Bali. At that time, I couldn't believe that people actually lived in the small "houses" I saw along the road, that 2 people and a baby could ride one scooter, that not everyone had running water and therefore many bathed alongside the road in the river. What I didn't realize then is that the majority of people who live in countries that are not as "well off" as ours are not dissatified with their lives on the level that I assumed they would be, but are in fact quite happy and in many cases happier than I am in many ways.

I guess my lesson learned was different than yours...I learned that not having the latest technology (like an iPod) and cable TV and 2 cars and a huge house with lawn and double garage isn't tragic at all, and in fact is in many ways better. But that's an entirely different discussion and is highly, highly subjective and individual.

So now reading a poster's own words on this thread is "background checking"?

I now see that I was wrong in my interpretation of your writings; Your time in Vietnam obviously gave you better insight into third world conditions than any of us have been able to gain in our travels.

Thank you for helping us to see the light as to the error of our spendy, typically tourist ways, and thanks for preventing any others from having to see such painful sights.

In closing though... if Vietnam offended your senses, you'd better cross India off your list. You'd need more than that "bottle of whine in a nice café in an appealing setting" to get over the living conditions there!

Hanuman!!

You said...>>>I think the description is like someone from Beverly Hills visiting Oxnard for the first time.<<<


Whoa there!..I resent your comments on multi-ethnic, beautiful Oxnard...I lived on Hollywood Beach in Oxnard for 8 very happy years. Your remarks were very disparaging to the rather poor Colonia Latino section of Oxnard where many hard-working farm workers live. This entire area has been upgraded and I'm sure all 200,000 citizens of Oxnard have a certain amount of pride in it.

For a variety of reasons, I had to move back into L.A., and now live in an area which is referred to facetiously, as Beverly Hills Adjacent..
...y'know "You can't be too Complacent if you live in Bevery Hills Adjacent!"

I'll accept your apology on behalf of the wonderful, hardworking citizens of Colonia and environs.

Stu T.

I got curious about the poverty statement:

"25% of the population in Vietnam lives below the internationally recognized poverty line and only 41% of the population there has access to improved sanitation, then I think one can rightly talk about the poverty in Vietnam (as I was doing)."

So I did a little research. The CIA Factbook page https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications...elds/2046.html on just this subject was a very interesting page, listing Vietnam as having 19.5% of its population living under the poverty line and the USA at 12%...not such a great difference. Thailand comes in better at 10%. Cambodia at a whopping 40% and Laos at 45%.

http://siteresources.worldbank.org/I...une1-2006).pdf is also an interesting read.

In the US, there are in fact people living in Newark and New York and LA and... who do not have running water, do not send their children to school for one reason or another, and there are 8 year olds who are working in spite of child labor laws. This isn't the USA most of us see or even care to admit exists, but it's there, just as Cicerone points out.

We have done a very good job in the USA at isolating poverty and keeping it out of sight, something that isn't done in poorer Asian countries nearly as much.

Tower,

My apologies to all that I offended!

Julies,

Here's the latest rate in Euro for the George V hotel:

Royal One-Bedroom Suite 11,000.00

Presidential Suite 9,000.00

Premier Suite 2,750.00

One-Bedroom Deluxe Suite 2,300.00

Duplex Suite 1,900.00

One-Bedroom Superior Suite 1,800.00

Four Seasons Executive Suite 1,350.00

Premier Room 940.00

Deluxe Room 830.00

Superior Room 710.00

Hard to find a good hotel with a reasonable rate in Paris! Where do you stay in Paris when you visit there?

JulieS - I absolutely understand why you would feel stung by some of the responses here. But for me, one sentence took my breath away:

"We saw a lot of very interesting things but nothing we would refer to as charming"

Really? Not one thing? No, you didn't say you would never visit Asia again, but why would anyone go back to a place that they feel lacks charm of any kind? You chose to have a gritty, "authentic" view of Vietnam (though see Cicerone's thread on China for discussion on "authenticity") and it's okay that you wanted to go home early. But I'm afraid your post on the Europe board may have needlessly scared off a lot of would-be travelers to Asia. And that's a shame.

"If I wanted to develop a more specific parallel, I would have had to say something like Italy lovers visit Vietnam".

Why the need for a comparison? Of course Vietnam and Europe are different, just like Minnesota is different from Florida. You could have just titled your post, Vietnam Trip Report, just like most other people do, then make your comparisons inside.

By the way, why didn't you post this on the Asia board? Perhaps because you knew it would get just these types of responses?

"Don't you feel at all guilty when paying $100 a night for a hotel room when that is 1/5 of the average annual income in Vietnam"?

"Did you feel guilty paying $2,000+ for your plane tickets to VN"?

Julies -- I don’t know where you get your information, but it is not correct. Vietnam DOES have child labor laws. Please refer to http://www.usvtc.org/trade/bta/state...hts_report.htm. (There is also some information there on compulsory education for Vietnamese children.) Enforcement of those laws was citied as an issue; however that report was written in 2000 and the International Labor Organization recently praised them for their efforts in enforcing the child labor laws and significantly reducing the number of children working illegally. Please refer to http://english.vietnamnet.vn/social/2006/06/583207/.

As for education, primary school education is both compulsory and free, refer to Chapter 5, Article 59 of the Vietnamese Constitution, which you can find on the website of the Vietnamese Embassy at http://www.vietnamembassy.us/learn_a.../chapter_five/. There is apparently some abuse of this by local officials who do charge fees for uniforms, etc. Also, there is no doubt that given the huge number of young people in Vietnam (27% of people are under the age of 14, in the US it’s 20%), the education budget is not nearly what is should be and the quality of teachers and the fact that secondary education is not free is certainly an issue. For a poor country with therefore a small tax base, it’s easy to understand their problem. Vietnam spends 15.8% of its national tax revenues on education, the USA spends 22.4 %. I would say neither country spends enough. Refer to http://www.right-to-education.org/co...ers/rte_02.pdf. They do spend more on military than the do on schools, but so does the majority of most other countries, including the United States. Even with all their problems, their literacy rate is 90%, one of the highest in the world (US is 99%).

My reference to a needing a police escort in Newark was to point out that despite the poverty in many parts of Asia, the crime rate in the US is much higher than in Asia. It is very low in democracies like India, constitutional monarchies like Thailand, as well as repressive regimes like Burma. Even though all these countries are poor and the people have very little in terms of material goods, they don’t seem to steal from one another or from visitors. Even rich countries like Singapore and Japan have very low crime rates. It is not the government which keeps crime low in Asia, it’s the Asians.

Finally, I currently live in country ruled by a repressive COMMUNIST regime, so I don’t feel the need to move to another one. While I am no fan of either communism or socialism, from what I have seen democracies are no better in preventing poverty or helping people advance. India, the largest democracy in the world, certainly has more than its share of very poor people, children working in factories (India just passed its first child labor law 2 months ago), people working in a muddy rice field without cease just to ensure that they have a bit of daily rice, etc. I am not saying don’t go to India, it is one of my very favorite places in the world, but it certainly has poverty, as well as democracy.

I don’t believe I ever said there was no poverty in Vietnam, in fact I think I was clear that there IS poverty there; I was just trying to point out that poverty exists in the US as well. I don’t think I ever said the poverty in the US was worse than it is in Vietnam. Having lived in Asia for 15 years and given the fact that I spend 40% of my time in India, I am painfully aware of the poverty problem here. However, I myself, and I think some others were surprised at YOUR surprise that Vietnam was poor and dirty, etc. I just assumed most people already knew that, and in fact, a good bit of time on this board is spent by myself and others trying to encourage people to come to Asia DESPITE those factors. (And I believe you were one of the people we spent time encouraging to come.) Speaking for myself, I was a bit taken aback by the fact that despite your research for the trip, and despite all the advice and comments on this you received on this very board about it, this still came as a surprise to you; you seemed amazed to think that the pictures you had seen for years in National Geographic were actually “true”. The ignorance of an adult on this point was rather shocking to me.

It does not matter to me whether or not you like Asia, but it does matter to me that people who travel the world are so unaware of what is going on in most of it.

As you have seen now, Asia is not easy and Asia is not for everyone. Asia is advanced travel. The lotus grows out of the mud. In my opinion, it takes a true romantic to appreciate Asia; that is, someone who can see beauty in everything, because you have go look very hard sometimes to find it. It is very easy to find it in Europe, and many, many people are more comfortable there because of it; perhaps you are one of them. Sitting on my roof terrace in my flat in Zurich and gazing across the lake to the Alps with a glass a wine as the church bells peal across the evening sky was certainly easy and very sublime; sitting in an Indian train station in the dirt, chaos, noise and smells of a few thousand people as a cow wanders in is not, but it is still incredibly beautiful to me in a very different way.

"The lotus grows out of the mud" is the best way I've ever heard to express how I feel about Asia. Thanks Cicerone !

Aloha!

julies--I hope you've been reading the original thread on the europe board. You have many defenders there, not that you need them. And I totally get why you wrote "Asia", and you explained it well. Never did I think you were judging all of Asia with your trip. To the person who wondered why you chose Vietnam, I'm guessing it was because, as a Francophile, you were attracted to its partly French flavor. (Maybe I'll be attacked now for celebrating Vietnam's oppressive, colonial past!) Pay no mind to these people, Julies. I hope you'll ignore them and continue to post on Fodor's!

julies, I am so sorry that you are getting such a hammering over your post. I can see that you were just posting some thoughts about your experience. No harm no foul, you would think.

Having been to several SE Asia countries and loving each one for different reasons, I encourage you to give Asia another shot. Maybe Laos will win your heart as it has mine. :-)

Cheers!