Early planning for yet another "second trip" to Japan
 

DH and I are very lucky to have accumulated enough time and frequent flyer miles for two big trips this year. Australia and New Zealand are coming up soon (mid-October to late November, so that itinerary is 95% complete). When we got back from Borneo and Japan last June (4 days Tokyo, one night Hakone) we vowed to return to Japan soon. We had to use some FF miles on ANA before they expired, so we just booked tickets for 17 days on the ground in May 2016 (just after Golden Week). Although I feel I have time to plan details when we return from NZ, I realized there might be some special places we want to book asap (such as Mume Hotel in Kyoto). In order to do that, I first have to sketch an itinerary.

From reading recent TRs and planning posts as well as Japan Guide, I’ve come up with my top priorities. We travel slowly (don’t hike) and we will be flying into Tokyo and out of Osaka. I plan to include (at least) 2 days in Tokyo in the beginning, which would then give us about 2 weeks to cover the following highest priorities (at this stage, anyway, I know that your input sometimes changes those for me) - - please help with the order that you think works best and # nights in each place:

1)Snow Monkey park in Yamanouchi;
2)Lake Kawaguchiko (for the pink moss festival and Mt Fuji views - - we could not see Mt. Fuji from Hakone last June);
3)Takayama (especially for Kenrokuen gardens),
4)Shirakawa-go (probably not overnight so is this a full day side trip or “on the way” between two places);
5)Kanazawa;
6)Kyoto

As for other places to possibly fit in (obviously not all): Matsumoto, Koyasan, Nikko, Miyajima and Hiroshima. I’ve read so many of your wonderful reports, it is difficult to eliminate things but if you feel I am missing something major (been to Nara and Kamakura about 40 years ago) well, please advise. Also, I’ve seen very few reports that include Lake Kawaguchiko but since we will be missing sakura, I thought perhaps the pink moss might be nice.

Immediate bottom line: I am thinking about booking Mume for the last 4 nights of the trip since it is still available. Does it make sense to end in Kyoto (final night then to Osaka airport?). Would it be too much include Hiroshima and Miyajima and would it be crazy to back track to go to Kyoto at the end of the trip just to ensure reservations at Mume?

TP - I don't have any advice other than to visit the Kenrokuen Gardens in Kanazawa where they are actually located, rather than in Takayama. Hopefully this won't require you to change your plans :-).

Oops, too much spinning around in my head, yes Kenrokuen in Kanazawa. Thanks, Craig.

If you visit Hida no Sato in Takayama, a stop in Shirakawa-go might seem superfluous. JMO.

For me, an overnight in Koyasan was a highlight of a highlight-filled trip. YMMV. If you decide to go there, I believe the choice of temple can make a big difference. I was very pleased with Shojoshinin. That would be something to reserve in advance.

I also thought my time in Hiroshima and Miyajima extraordinarily special.

The Kamogawa Odori is performed in Kyoto in May -- if you can arrange your time to be there for that, it would (I think) be well worth considering. The Aoi Matsuri is also in May, but probably too early given your timing.

I visited Japan in May and thought the variety of blooming things absolutely lovely.

Enjoy!

Nothing to add as we'll be in Japan around the same time so our paths may cross since I also flying ANA out of the DC area in/out of Tokyo though. I have 18 days and am in the process of filling my itinerary. I'm fortunate to have a friend in Japan who's helping me finalize my trip. Also like you I'm a slow traveler, but love hiking so planning on some hiking while I'm there.

Happy planning.
jdc

kja, thanks for those suggestions, being able to eliminate things is helpful and I found out that Kamogawa Odori will likely coincide with out time in Kyoto.
jdc, would love to hear what arrangements you are making, especially if you our stops overlap.

"Kamogawa Odori will likely coincide with out time in Kyoto"

Bonus! Do consider going -- I thought it breathtaking and oh, so, memorable!

"it is difficult to eliminate things but if you feel I am missing something major (been to Nara and Kamakura about 40 years ago) well, please advise."

Not to add to your list.., but when in Nara, did you make it to Ikaruga? Hōryū-ji and Chūgū-ji are among the temples I most enjoyed while in Japan.

If you visit Shirakawa-go, a stop in Hida no Sato in Takayama might seem superfluous. JMO.

@ mrwunrfl -- ;-)

No bad choice here, IMO -- just a question of how to allocate one's time. I liked being able to go into and around the buildings of the Hida no Sato on my own, which one can do (at least during opening hours!) because it is a museum that also includes buildings and exhibits from other parts of the Hida region. I'm sure there are lots of advantages to visiting Shirakawa-go instead.

FWIW, the wonderful Takayama Museum of Art -- with its extraordinary collection of Art Nouveau and Art Deco glass and interior decorations -- is just steps from Hida no Sato.

S-go is a World Heritage Site and HNS is not. However, neither is superfluous.

It helps to get your opinions about prioritizing these stops. But I'm having a tough time figuring out the order of this itinerary (or similar). From browsing hypedia and Japan guide, it looks like some of the stops might involve 5+ hours of travel time. So I'm not sure what routing would minimize this, where to include stopovers or which to eliminate or add nights so we don't have to move too much or where it might be OK to backtrack.

When we went to Hakone last year, we loved being there but were pretty tired out by the trip and the two trains, rope way, cable car, etc. we ended up not doing much sightseeing because we only had one night. Not an entirely bad thing because we loved the ryokan but I want to be realistic about what it takes to get from place to place.

FromDC, Initially this is the itinerary that my Japanese friend had planned out for me based on my interest, Hokkaido/5 days; Tokohu/3 days/Kamakura/1 day; Izu/2 days; Kyoto/3 days; Hiroshima/Miyajima/2 days and Tokyo/2 days. But like you, I felt the stops involved too much time in-transit so I'm now tweaking a bit. The plan was to fly directly to Hokkaido on my arrival on May 12, but now I'm rethinking going to Hokkaido towards the end of May to optimize better chance to have better weather for hiking. I have a total of 19 days excluding arrival and departure days. I prefer to base myself in one location and do day trips if possible rather than moving from hotel to hotel losing time in-transit.

I will definitely let you know my final itinerary and maybe if we're an area at the same time, we can GTG.

jdc

With a few hours on Hyperdia, I sketched out something rough with # nights and estimated travel time - hope to get some feedback:

2 nights (Tokyo to ) Lake Kawaguchi, 2+ hours
1 night, Matsumoto, approx 4 hours
2 nights Shibu Onsen, 2 hours
3 nights Takayama (including trip to S-go?) 4.5 hours
3 nights Kanazawa, 2.5 hours
1 night Koyasan, 4.5 hours + cable car
4 nights Kyoto, 3 hours + cable car down
last night Osaka airport

I actually have one more night available than what is listed there. We really love beautiful scenery, markets, gardens, walks/wandering around neighborhoods, historical places, some interest in temples and castles (not a burning passion). So an additional question: is this "varied" enough - - is 10 nights total in Takayama, Kanazawa and Kyoto too much in total for our interests? Perhaps eliminate Takayama, for example and add something by the sea somewhere (fly or train - I don't think we want to do any driving).

jdc - - although we don't have much overlap now, who knows what these itineraries will look like before May. A GTG would be great.

oops, I actually have one less night. So 2 nights Takayama, 3 nights Kanazawa or eliminate Koyasan.

"Takayama (including trip to S-go?)"

If you visit Shirakawa-go, you might want to do it en route from Takayama to Kanazawa -- no need to back track! Part of the reason I skipped it was because at the time I went, there seemed to be no where to leave one's suitcase, but from what I've read, that was either a mistaken understanding on my part or a situation that has since changed.

"Koyasan, 4.5 hours + cable car"

Yes, the trip to Koya-san sounds monstrous -- but I found it stunning: the scenery made every bit of time and change of transportation worth while to me! But do consider taking advantage of Japan's excellent luggage-forwarding option so you only need to take an overnight bag with you. Luggage-forwarding is called takuhaibin; here's the info:
http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2278.html

"Is this "varied" enough - - is 10 nights total in Takayama, Kanazawa and Kyoto too much in total for our interests?"

Hard to say, but I can say that I feared that I would get "templed out" and never did -- I found sufficient variety in the temples and shrines and gardens, etc., to wish I could have seen even more -- and I probably visited a LOT more than you will, given differences in our itineraries. And if you do find yourself wanting more variety, well, you could day-trip from Kyoto to Osaka, visit Himeji-jo from Kyoto (worth considering even if not for reasons of variety), etc.

"2 nights Takayama, 3 nights Kanazawa or eliminate Koyasan."

For my purposes, that would have been an ideal combo -- 2 nights Takayama, 3 nights Kanazawa, and include 1 night in Koya-san. Your purposes could, of course, differ from mine.

Hope that helps!

Hi From DC,

The amount of time you have allocated closely aligns with the number of nights we spent in the same places over our two trips. For what it's worth, we found 1 night in Shibu Onsen to be sufficient to see the snow monkeys and enjoy the town. Staying 2 nights in Takayama made for a very busy full day for us, but if you skip Hida no Sato it will make for a more reasonable pace, and then you can hit S-go on the way to Kanazawa, where 3 nights was perfect for us.

I would strongly urge you to go to Koyasan. It was the highlight of probably both trips, and we didn't find the travel time to be that bad.

If you haven't read them already, you can find more details on my two trip reports. Have fun planning!

Russ, I have reread your TRs several times, they were very helpful in drafting an itinerary. And since I have one less day than I thought (I must have mixed up by excluding the two nights in Tokyo) it is good to know that 1 night in Shibu Onsen is sufficient. My only concern is having two 1 nighters in a row but being able to forward luggage will help with this.

Kja, I appreciate your comments because I was wondering about Himeji. I would love to hear more about the differences in the Takayama and Kanazawa experiences. With an additional night (if I cut one night from Shibu Onsen), there would be time to stop at S-go.

I would welcome comments on whether going to Fuji 5 lakes is "worth it" for the pink moss viewing and possibility of glimpsing Mt Fuji (our big disappointment in Hakone). Thanks everyone.

Or maybe Lake Kawaguchi as a day trip from Tokyo?

"With an additional night (if I cut one night from Shibu Onsen), there would be time to stop at S-go."

Your call! But if you are considering a day trip from Kyoto to Himeji, then adding the night to Kyoto might make most sense. Many of us found 6 nights in Kyoto / Nara barely enough -- I certainly would have loved more time in the area, and time in Himeji was not part of my 6 days there. :-)

I've not gotten feedback on Lake Kawaguchi and I'm thinking it might not make sense because we were just in Hakone....though I still want that glimpse of Mt Fuji! Wondering if a day or two on the Noto Peninsula might make sense to vary the experiences a bit. Might have to get help from KimJapan!

Having two one-nighters in a row is not much of a concern, imo, when it is at/near the beginning of the trip.

Your itin will give you a variety of experiences of Japan which seems to be your primary goal. It is a good goal, imo, and adding time to Kyoto does not help with that. Adding Noto is a good idea except that the time there would come from somewhere else.

russ_in_LA gave you some great advice about the Shibu thru Kanazawa part of your plan.

>>Or maybe Lake Kawaguchi as a day trip from Tokyo?
Yes. I have not been there but would not overnight there given the rest of your itinerary. Besides, it could be in clouds and you won't get a view. You could keep it as an optional day-trip ... weather/conditions permitting!

You could scratch Matsumoto as you are planning to visit Himeji-jo, but that would be a difficult decision depending on your interest in castles. That would remove any concern about two 1-nighters in a row.

I have an idea that might be too much or might work. Leave Tokyo and visit Himeji during the day then spend that night in Nagano. Visit Zenko-ji in Nagano the next morning then have a short/easy trip to Shibu Onsen.

I remember the train ride from Matsumoto to Nagano as being quite scenic as it approached Nagano, so would advise doing that trip during daylight, but not at the expense of cutting your time short in Himeji.

Definitely consider visiting Zenko-ji.

We hit Zenko-ji on the advice of mrwunrfl and thought it very worthwhile. The only change I would have made would have been to stow luggage at Nagano station and taxi to Zenko-ji, then taxi back and take the Snow Monkey Express to Yudanaka from Nagano Station. This would have saved us lugging our bags around as well as having to take the slow local train to Yudanka, with a connection on the way.

I agree that our two 1 nights in a row early in the trip were not a problem, especially with the forwarding of luggage, but the second two one nighters at the end was tiring, in part because it was cold and rainy in Matsumoto. We enjoyed seeing the castle in Matsumoto, but it was a bit anticlimatic after Himeji. Better I think to see Matsumoto first.

"Your itin will give you a variety of experiences of Japan which seems to be your primary goal. It is a good goal, imo, and adding time to Kyoto does not help with that."

I think mrwunrfl has identified some outstanding options for you. And you have other options, too, that depend on what you do with your time in Kyoto. As already mentioned, your could visit Himeji from Kyoto, or Osaka, or other places that would add to the diversity of your experiences while affording the option to explore Kyoto / Nara further <b><u>if</b></u> you want to. Options from Kyoto that don't seem to have been mentioned already include the Miho Museum, Ohara, Uji... And even in Kyoto itself, it isn't all about temples -- there are shrines and gardens and craft centers and palaces and pleasure districts and vibrant centers of current life.... Just something to consider.

As always, I really appreciate the advice and suggestions. I will sketch out a couple of alternatives for the first 2/3 of the trip based on the input so far. We do have one night reserved in Kyosan (Shojoshin-in) and 4 nights in Kyoto (Mume) at the end of the trip. I'll keep fiddling with the middle section based on more reading and more input from my Fodor friends.

You have a whole team of seasoned experts to help. So I will just add this:

when we did our trip, I decided to have us start in Kyoto and finish in Tokyo, departing from Haneda airport. Haneda is a snap to get to from downtown Tokyo. So in lieu of an overnight near Osaka airport (yawn), you could have a night in Tokyo.

Otherwise, if you prefer to do it in the order you have, I am a little concerned: it seems you are stepping off the plane in Tokyo and heading immediately to Lake Kawaguchi - or have I misunderstood?

Sue, thanks for your concern! No, we plan to spend at least 2 days in Tokyo at the beginning, I didn't include them in the questions I threw out there. We really enjoyed our few days in Tokyo last June but there were many things we felt we missed so we want to spend more time there on this trip. I like the idea of being in Tokyo at the beginning because we will be familiar with getting around. Unfortunately, We can only fly into NRT. And I'm thinking about eliminating lake kawaguchi as an overnight or maybe only doing a day trip.
On our last night, I'm thinking we will spend pretty much the whole day in Kyoto and just get to an Osaka airport hotel for sleeping, we have a domestic flight to NRT very early, then home.

MrW, just reread your post, you meant visit Matsumoto during the day, then spend the night in Nagano and visit Zenko-Ji?

Ah, now I see.

re Hida no Sato. The really interesting part for me was learning about the incredibly hard life of rural Japan, prior to universal electricity. This is the downside of S-go; it is 'working' but it is also modernized. In HNS, I let my imagination wander. It was also a day off from (long-distance) buses and trains (we splurged on a taxi, all of maybe $10, walked to the nearby art gallery for lunch, and took the public bus back.)

I am very interested in your Lake Kawaguchi puzzle. Like you I have often wondered - how to do it as a day trip. One possibility: Overnight in Mishima, rent a car, drive (it's only an hour and a quarter to Lake K.)

If you are laughing hysterically at the idea of driving (and I admit, I am too - not to mention a one day rental could be quite expensive, and parking difficult during a festival) here's the website showing access:

http://www.shibazakura.jp/eng/access/

The main headache is to avoid a weekend, when I suspect buses and trains will be packed. Reservations will be a must at the JR office as soon as you touch down. If you plan it as a day trip and it falls through, well, there are always other things to do in Tokyo as you mentioned.

>>MrW, just reread your post, you meant visit Matsumoto during the day, then spend the night in Nagano and visit Zenko-Ji?

Yes, that's the idea. It is an option.

Overnighting in Matsumoto makes that day easier. Your luggage spends its time in a Matsumoto hotel room and next day in a coin locker at Nagano station if you decide to visit Zenkoji.

Overnighting in Nagano makes the next day easier. Your luggage spends its time in Matsumoto in a coin locker, night and next morning at a Nagano hotel.

Shinjuku- Matsumoto is 151 min on a Super Azusa L'Ex
Kawaguchiko- Matsumoto is 163 min with one change at Otsuki from the Fukikyu train to an Axusa L'Ex

Matsumoto- Nagano is 51 minutes on a Shinano L'Ex.

So, travel time is about 3.5 hours, maybe a bit more. Call it 4 hours.

I would consider not booking that night's hotel room in advance. JR Matsumoto station is big enough to have a travel agent that could book the night in Matsumoto or Nagano. I arrived in Matsumoto by bus and had a choice of hotels that were very nearby, within a block IIRC.

These are options that I would consider but maybe it is just complicating your plan instead of helping. Skipping Matsumoto is another option, mentioned above, if you are visiting Himeji-jo.

MrW - - I'll have to look into that 163 min option, thanks. I have to turn this over in my mind - - whether to try again for a glimpse of Fuji-san or put in an extra day elsewhere. We were so disappointed last year but at least the ryokan made up for some of it.

I did read about the moss festival in Lake Kawaguchiko in May, which is what made me think about going to that area again, but I haven't gotten any feedback about it so I am wondering if the reality is anything like the pictures on Japan guide.

Warm, early morning greetings from our fine home of Singapore to the OP, FromDC; glad you are returning to Japan. Love that country for work and the occasionally brief holiday.

Not much to add to the kind suggestions you have already received, as most of my Japan trips are business related and consist largely of hotels, office buildings and the Haneda and Narita airports. Did notice on your profile page that your favourite hotel is a property I have cherished from childhood, the Mandarin Oriental, Bangkok. With that, will suggest one of her sublime sisters, the MO, Tokyo. Had the priviledge of an extended Tokyo business travel stay with her in March / April of '14. Such gracious service and a particularly memorable "Deluxe Corner Room" on her 36th floor. Would be honoured to suggest other Tokyo lodgings I've experienced during business trips and the occasional weekend rendezvous.

[Regarding your (FromDC) profile page, noticed we also share an appreciation of Australia and New Zealand. Concerning your destination wish-list of Bhutan, we recently (earlier this month) experienced a truly special time in that region. Perfect conclusion to our reunion and assistance week in Nepal. Will eventually post some brief reviews on my profile page.]

Appears you are sorted with flights; if not, pleased to offer suggestions for an airline I'm flying for work today, our good old Singapore Airlines.

Savour your planning, DC; should be another fine Japanese journey. Warm Tuesday wishes to you and all from Singapore,

robert


... Singapore Girl, You're a Great Way to Fly ...

"whether to try again for a glimpse of Fuji-san or put in an extra day elsewhere."

DC, you probably know about this, but here goes: if you just want a glimpse, you could always figure in a shinkansen journey that takes you near Odawara and Mishima - sit in the D/E seats, you have a good 15 minutes total to see Fuji. Okay, so the mountain is in the distance, the time overall is short, but on the other hand, you haven't expended any particular energy or time to see it in the event it is clouded over. Which, as you found out, is apt to happen.

Sue_xx_yy wrote: "re Hida no Sato. The really interesting part for me was learning about the incredibly hard life of rural Japan, prior to universal electricity. This is the downside of S-go; it is 'working' but it is also modernized."

Interesting point! Thanks.

Sue_xx_yy, when you visited Shirakawago was it a pass-through, day trip from somewhere, or an overnight?

Robert, th las for the input. We are thinking about the MO in Tokyo, we stayed at the Shangrila last trip on a one free night package. Hoping to hear about your Bhutan adventure. Sue, thanks for the tip about the train, hadn't thought about that.

"Sue_xx_yy, when you visited Shirakawago was it a pass-through, day trip from somewhere, or an overnight?"

Mr. wunrfl, stop, stop! Mercy! Put down the samurai sword!

I have erred, and most grievously. I should not have inflamed any kind of debate as my observations were and are, based on incomplete experience; I stated that disclaimer at the start, and then succumbed to the temptation to speculate on the basis of actual experience in only HNS, and only photographic 'experience' of S-go. I could have, and should have, confined my remarks to saying that choices can be difficult, when one is pressed for time, and when necessary, one can use one's imagination to compensate, when choices must be made. While I maintain I was correct in principle, I was completely wrong to use the comparison that I did as an example. I got carried away, and not to a wise place. Please, mercy wunrfl-san.

Sue_xx_yy, you are right that S-go is modernized. It is because the village is alive. People live there and want indoor plumbing, electricity, and paved roads. Visit the village and then take the footbridge to cross the river to the open-air museum. Then the shuttle from there to the viewpoint. HNS is not alive. It is a very nice museum collection of buildings from around the region. You won't meet any proud owners of a gassho zukuri and their family at HNS.

I couldn't fit S-go into my plan the first time that I visited that region, so I saw HNS and it was better than I expected. I was headed east from Takayama to Kamikochi and Matsumoto. The OP is headed in the opposite direction to Kanazawa. Going by bus with stop in Ogimachi, Shirakawago, fits extremely well. I recommend staying the night.

Learning a lot from this exchange, thanks.

> ... choices can be difficult ...

I agree with you again Sue_xx_yy.

Another option to choose from that has not been mentioned is Gokayama. http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e5950.html