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Cyn needs THailand help - oh, please :-) !!!
Hi!
I’ve started reading trip reports – (and if you have one buried in the history, would you please post the link for me to read it? :-) ), and now I’m going to be <b>really</b> presumptuous and just ask for help! DH and I are thinking of going to Thailand in Feb/Mar 2007. We hope to take about 6 weeks (and may use one of those weeks in Japan), and do want to do a side trip to Ankgor Wat. We are in our 50’s, in reasonably good shape, and enjoy <font color="blue">wildlife, ruins, temples, history</font>. We enjoy time in rural areas more so than big cities (although it is certainly fun to explore cities – just not for too long!), and are definitely <b><u>NOT</u></b> beach people – other than to watch a sunset. Our last trip was to Africa, where we had a fabulous trip. <b>However</b> - we moved every 2 days or so in a month’s time (and 21 flights later, we arrived home), and so this time are hoping for a trip where we can explore and enjoy an area for a couple of weeks at a time. We were thinking of trying to find a serviced apartment/condo/house to rent, but I’m not having much luck there. Plus – I don’t think it would be wise to spend all of our time in one area – it seems Thailand is simply too big to try and take day trips to see all it has to offer. Perhaps an apartment in Bangkok, Hua Hin, and Chiang Mai? (Does anyone have suggestions on how to find them???) Should we instead do a series of tours? And? We are language-challenged – English and a little French is it! Can anyone help me decide the best way to go about this? Budget-wise, I don’t want to spend more than $3-5000 on accommodations. We’ll be flying on miles (yahoo!). Should we rent a car, or have a driver/guide/car? Yikes! I’m really asking a lot here! <font color="green">Cyn</font> |
Here are a few ideas to get you started.
You don't need tours. Thailand is remarkable easy to fo on your own. And if you'd like, you can hire a guide for a day here and there. Also, you can hire a car and driver easily and cheaply. No reason to drive yourselves. There are lots of serviced apartment in Bangkok. Many are rent-able by the day, so you don't have to spend weeks there. If I had 6 weeks, I'd opt for a week in Bangkok (at least), a week in Siem Reap to visit the temples at Angkor, a week in Luang Prabang, a week in the Golden Triangle area, and a week in the Chaing Mai area. That leaves one more week. It's up to whether to explore more of Northern Thailand (Pai or Mae Hong Son, etc) or to go to the beach. Since you aren't beach people, I'm not sure I'd recommend Hua Hin or another beach area. Want some photos to inspire you? take a look at www.marlandc.com |
Oooh good - Kathie - I was hoping you'd be around!
Why would you recommend a week in BKK? <font color="green">Cyn</font> |
oh, one website for serviced apartments, etc. is www.moveandstay.com Note that their prices are rather high, and you can call the places directly and get a better price, but it will give you some ideas.
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IMO, Bangkok is one of the most fascinating cities in the world. I love Bangkok and generally use Bangkok as my door to SE Asia, so I have visited the city 20+ times. Some of the things you need to see to understand Thailand are in Bangkok (the Grand Palace, Temple of the Emerald Buddha, Wat Po, Wat Arun, Jim Thompson House, etc). There is also wonderful food and great shopping. Frankly, if it were my trip, I'd schedule a week in Bangkok at the beginning of the trip and a week at teh end - but you said you didn't like cities that much, so I only recommended a week.
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Kathie:
I'll check on the moveandstay sight - thanks! Is that the way you do it, or do you stay in hotels when there? Yes, we're not city people - maybe 3 days in BKK at the beginning to give us (me!) a chance to acclimate, and then a week at the end to really see the city? Do you think my accomodation budget is reasonable? If we go it on our own, do you think the language barrier will be a problem? I just <b>hate</b> being so bad at languages!!! I'll learn how to say please and thank you, but beyond that... Ok - one other question this time around ( :-) ) - I am very much an animal lover - am I going to have a hard time with the treatment of animals in Thailand? (I <b>do</b> understand the cultural differences, and the economics of a poor culture using any means to get ahead - it just still hurts to see an animal in pain or not in its natural envirnment. The most difficult part for me in Kenya was a lion hunt/kill. We never saw animals in "bondage" (sorry - I know that sounds stupid - just don't know how else to describe...) <font color="green">Cyn</font> |
Kathie - one more thing - thanks for the link to your website - it is <b>wonderful</b>!
<font color="green">Cyn</font> |
cyn, I opt to stay in hotels. There are a number of people on this board who regularly stay in serviced apartments in Bangkok. A very reasonably priced place to stay in Chaing Mai is Baan Orapin. A number of the regulars on this board have stayed there and give it rave reviews. It's more of a B&B type place, feels more home-like than a hotel.
Your thought to stay in Bangkok for a few days to acclimate at the beginning then a week at the end sounds good to me. You'll be amazed at how many people speak English. Even if they only have a few words, they are gracious and will work with you to understand. I don't think you'll have a lot of problems re: animals. Some people like to visit one of the Elephant camps. If you do so, make sure you choose one of the better camps, known for treating the elephants well. |
(Glad you like the website - a picture really is worth a thousand words)
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About your accommodation budget: Yes, you can make that work. My recommendation would be to economise in some places so you can splurge in others. In some places you may opt for guest houses, in others, hotels or serviced apartments.
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Kathie (and anyone else who wants to chime in!):
Would you kindly list your top-5 sights to see in Thailand? I realize everyone has different interests - that's what makes it so interesting! <font color="green">Cyn</font> |
Cyn-Kathie, as usual has provided helpful info. Your budget can work, but be aware that the price level changes according to location. In BKK, it sounds like a serviced apt. would work. Yopu might actually try two to get a different feel for different areas of the city. In CM, many have enjoyed the Baan Orapin, Yang Come Village or Tamaring House. Do a search on this board and more will be revealed. In Siem Riep, the hotels are more expensive than in BKK. We had veryt good luck using Ponheary as both a guide and someone to arrange our hotel, She can be reached at [email protected].
For top 5 sights, Grand Palace, Chao Phraya River, Doi Suthep (just outside Chiang Mai), Phang Nga Bay (off the island of Phuket) and Prasart Museum (outside BKK, you have to make advance reservations and arrang transport). |
Top 5 - Well, I listed 5 in Bangkok. I agree with Gpanda about adding in the Prasart Museum. That makes 6 just in Bangkok. Doi Suthep in CM is really wonderful... As you can see, I'm not good at confining myself to 5! I loved the scenery at the Golden Triangle, and some of the ruins and temples there. Of course none of those ruins hold a candle to the temples at Angkor.
For accommodations, take a look at www.sawasdee.com Most of the time, their prices include tax and service (17%) and many include breakfast. |
This site - http://www.talesofasia.com/cambodia-...guide-stay.htm - is a good guide to accomodation options in Siem Reap. No real need to stay in an expensive hotel. Last time I stayed at the Yaklom Angkor Lodge, no pool or room service, but clean and comfortable with good attached restaurant.
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Hi Cyn -
I certainly can't compete with some of the experts here regarding Thailand - Kathie, James A, and other (too early in the morning to recall all) who have thus far provided excellent resources. But, if looking for someone close to home you may want to consider the US agent I used. InnovAsian Travel, Gregg Geoghegan, Armonk, NY 800-553-4665 www.innovasian.com who pulled our trip together at very competitive prices. Though we visited for only 16/days, we stayed mostly 5* hotels, guide/driver & a/c MercBenz for tours where we felt these necessary, all intra- and inter-country flights. The latter to REP (Siem Reap) for the Angkor temples which you certainly have time to visit. Of course, there's no obligation, but at least gives you a point from where to compare. A number of posters here have used InnovAsian and been quite pleased with the results. Contact Gregg, you can use my name, but understand I have to relation or affiliation to this company. Just a good find and well worth it. I can almost guarantee you won't have to be moving every 2/days or take as many flights as when in Africa; in Southeast Asia you have to slow down for no other reason than the heat is a killer. Happy planning. |
CYn,
If I may be so presumptuous as to recommend my trip report... :-) It provides tons of details about our (mom, 49, daughter, 24) three weeks in Thailand, Laos, and Cambodia in February. We're not beach people either. Our Thailand time was in three spots - Bangkok, Mae Hong Son, and Chiang Mai. Agree with the previous comments. A week in Bangkok (I'm not really a city person either) will be easily gobbled up. And I too would add Luang Prabang and Siem Reap - we visited all of the above in three weeks. We were moving, but not terribly rushed. We stayed at Centre Point Silom in Bangkok, a serviced apartment which I can't recommend highly enough. It's undergoing renovations, but I'm not sure the timeframe. If it's available, it's a winner. (You can see it in my photos.) Language is definitely not an issue. You'd laugh if you had seen all the postings I put on this board prior to our trip - all the concerns I had! We'd never been to Asia before, were a mother/daughter going alone, and a bit intimidated about the idea of doing it without a tour group. But thanks to this board (I am not kidding - we wouldn't have done it without the fabulous people here), we managed splendidly. Here's my trip report... http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34762799 my final thoughts and top 10 lists... http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34780305 and my photos... http://kbutler8.photosite.com/ Enjoy! |
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Craig:
When I click on your link I get directed to the tiny url site with the message:Unable to find site's URL to redirect to. Can you help me out? <font color="green">Cyn</font> |
Ok, I'll get to more personal responses in a day or three, but a general <b>thankyou</b>!!!! for the advice.
This is what I've been mulling over - please give me your candid thoughts: <b><u>Hua Hin, 7 nights</u></b> Recover from jetlag, and go to 2 national parks: Laeng Krachan and Khao SOk (perhaps move south for that visit?) <b><u>Siem Reap, 4 nights? </u></b> <b><u>Luang Prabang, 2 nights</u></b> If at all?? <b><u>Chaing Mai/Golden Triangle area, 14 nights</u></b> include Doi Inthanon national park <b><u>Bangkok, 5 nights</u></b> <b><u>Japan, 7 nights</u></b> Where should I add/subtract time? Does this seem like a good plan, or am I missing something really important? This is such a nice trip to plan, because we really have the luxery of time - we can adjust schedule as needed. (Believe me, I know how lucky we are! :-) ) In addition to the temples/ruins, I'm really hoping to spot some wildlife on this trip (tiger???) - hence a small focus on national parks. <font color="green">Cyn</font> |
Cyn - when I click on it I get to my report but try this (the long version):
http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34767241 |
Less time in northern Thailand and add a couple days to Luang Prabang! It's a wonderful place. I know my trip report is long - but go read it!! And don't miss LP. :-)
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<b>Craig</b>: That worked - it's printing now.
<b>althom</b>(Karen?): I actually copied yours into a word doc, went through and deleted all the chatter, reduced margins to 0, and then printed the report - and <b>still</b> ended up with 58 pages! I can't wait to read it - that's my next project!!! Anyone else have trip reports they can link so I can read??? :-) <font color="green">Cyn</font> |
here is the link to my 2005 trip report:
http://www.fodors.com/forums/threadselect.jsp?fid=27 i think your budget could work as others have suggested and i think the way kathie suggested makes lots of sense....you will be amazed at how cheap some places are to stay... do lots of research however and ask questions directly here... top 5: grand place jim thompson house wat arun klong tour prasart museum nothing in the rest of thailand can hold a candle to these, imo... i love the marriott on the river....but i have stayed in many other places in bkk.... assume you are coming from usa....if so your first day or two need to be considered a waste time....you will be very tired and need to adjust to the climate....go someplace to relax ...i like the marriott or one of the other river place for this... i do not think animals are treated any differently in thailand than in most of the rest of the world... |
rhkkmk (Bob?):
I seem to be having the darndest trouble with people's links - when I click yours, I get brought to the aisa formum - no report. Can you help me out? Yes, am coming from the states (not far from you I think - VT), and that is why I'm thinking to spend 7 nights in Hua Hin. Would like a beach-front serviced apartment - is there such a thing? First 2 days would be spent just acclimating, then start some "gentle" sightseeing. <font color="green">Cyn</font> |
Oh, I am just <b>so</b> excited! I just called AA to start the normally-arduous task of getting ff flights - and, in the matter of 10 minutes, I have tickets near the dates I was starting with, and I may even go to fc over bc for the extra 25m miles (135m vs 110m).
We'll be flying out of BDL to MCO (coach), then to tokyo(bc) and then to BKK (japan air only has 2 classes of service between Tokyo and BKK, so it will be the top class). Coming back, it will be top class from BKK to Tokyo (Japan air), then bc on AA Tokyo to DFW. First class DFW to BDL. The reason I'm thinking of upping to first over bc is because of no flat beds on the aa return. Also - I have never flow either Japan Air or Cathay Pacific - are they about equal, or is one better than the other? I'll copy this post over to the airlines forum too, but I am sooo excited - I now have <b><font color="blue">dates</font></b>!!! <font color="green">Cyn</font> |
Cyn, congrats on getting your dates nailed down!
I'm unclear why you plan to spend 7 nights in Hua Hin if you aren't beach people? |
Kaeng Krachan is only about 50 minutes from Hua Hin, you can take the day tours of the national park or you can stay close by, Kaeng Krachan Country Club is the best and all are cabins, houses, some very large, also has the golf course, and you can tour the park from there, Phanern Tung Mountain plus the river all in the area.
Just 30 minutes south of Hua hin is ASam Roi Yot, lots of places on the park area beaches, if you want luxury the Privacy Beach Resort is about the best, Villas go from about USD 100 - 400 for the top pool villas, though plenty of cheaper places like Dolphin Bat resort, from about USD 30, 1 bedroom apartment about USD 38, you can take the boat to Monkey island and 'try' and see the Pink Dilphins ( though we have never seen them on several attempts, but fun anyhow ). There are birdwatching places and wetlands in Sam Roi Yot in addition to the caves, temples and the pranburi River. The Krachen / Sam Roi Yot combination is popular for those who like national parks and wildlife though krachen far better for monkeys, deer etc. For Khao Sok the Kuraburi Greenview Resort is about USD 50-65 for a suite, less for the deluxe bungalows, they do all the park trip and canoes on the lake etc. From Hua Hin you can go by road south through Sam Roi Yot park and then it is not so fat by road down to Koh Sok. A car with a driver including fuel probably about USD 100-125, would take about 6 hours and you go through the Istmus of Kra and Ranong area. From there heading back you can go a few hours south and pick up a flight to Bangkok from Phuket Airport. |
Although not 'apartments' there are fully serviced bungalows a short walk from the beach in Hua Hin, they run up to about USD 95 for Ocean Breeze with a dip pool and you own personal staff, good area for elephants and temples.
http://www.r24.org/huahin.20m.com/hu...reeze/details/ Coral Keys Bungalows are cheaper around USD 45 but again full service but no dip pool or anything, more basic. |
Correction to flights - NOT "MCO" - we're connecting in CHICAGO (ORD).
Kathie -lol- I <b>KNOW!</b> - it sounds strange. Here's the whyfore: I am a very bad jetlag person - It takes me at least a week, if not more, to get on schedule. By the time we get to Thailand, I will be one stupid, cranky, useless person. I'm trying to give myself 2 days to do nothing, and figured that a beach is the place for that - not that we'll be <b>on</b> the beach, mind you - just looking at it, maybe a walk of 2. Believe it or not, the other part of the reason is because my guide books tells me that those 2 national parks I mentioned earlier have the best opportunity to see a tiger (my love of animals) and other mammals and birds. Jeez, now I have to work...it's really getting in the way of my vacation planning! >:-) <font color="green">Cyn</font> |
Ah, I see. JamesA has great ideas about accommodations.
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Cyn, these give some more information about Krachan ( not spellings 'do' vary )
http://www.dnp.go.th/parkreserve/asp...d=113&lg=2 http://www.dnp.go.th/parkreserve/asp...on.asp?#sec539 Sam Roi Yot ( starts 30 mins south of Hua Hin town center ) http://www.dnp.go.th/parkreserve/asp...attraction.asp http://www.dnp.go.th/parkreserve/asp...pid=8&lg=2 The wetlands and marshes are famous for bidwatching, they have boardwalks into the wetlands and a good local parks office there. Phraya Nakhon Cave is a must see ! Khao Sok: http://www.dnp.go.th/parkreserve/asp...d=200&lg=2 I wish these places got more 'press' as they are great for those looking for nature, but I guess the plus side is that they don't get too crowded. The advantage of both krachan and Sam Roi Yot is that you can stay in some luxy beach resort and be within 40-50 minutes of them, and back to luxury at night, for sam Roi Yot places like the Evason are within 20 minutes. Khao Sok you are also near the Khao Lak beach resorts so you can also stay at some nice beach place in Khao Lak and still be close to the park. |
cyn---that was my designation when in the navy btw....haha
where in VT?? my family is originally from bethel....my dad is buried there... send me an e mail and i will forward my report---i think i can figure that you: [email protected] any interest in coming to boston on oct 7 for our GTG?? lots of asia fodorites will be there: gpanda. rhkkmk, craig, simpsonc510,lcuy, boston harbor, guenmai and others...let me know if you want to come and i will send you info... 7 nites may be too long in HH??? i'd add to bkk... |
Posting link to Bob's (rhkkmk) 2005 trip report for future reference.
http://www.fodors.com/forums/pgMessa...p;tid=34641575 |
Cyn,
Here are my pictures from my trip last year, I hope you enjoy them! http://www1.snapfish.com/thumbnailsh...425/t_=2930425 Jenn |
I'm not sure why, but the link isn't working. If you copy and paste it works though, so try that.
Jenn |
Got it Jenn - thanks! I started taking a look - it's going to take me some time, as I'm on the dreaded dialup, but what I've seen so far looks wonderful - and it's great that you captioned them all!
OK everybody, in doing some reading of these wonderful trip reports (and if you have a link to one, I'd be thrilled to have you post it here so I can read it!), it has of course generated a few questions: 1.) How soon do I need to worry about getting hotel/apartment reservations? Our travel dates are Mid February through March. 2.) Same question for in-Asia flights - still sticking with the basic places listed above right now. 3.) Am I seeing these things correctly: when I checked some of the websites you were all kind enough to share with me, I'm seeing beach-front resorts and high-end properties for <b>$28-50 per night</b>, including breakfast? Or did I just dream that??? 4.) And the same for prices at restaurants - really? $33 for dinner for 2 inclduing wine and dessert?? 5.) I see some recommendations for different tour guides in the different areas we're considering - how soon should I be contacting them? 6.) I'm getting the feeling that perhaps we should <b>not</b> drive ourselves? Why not? 7.) The "unrest" that I'm reading about in the South - how far south? Further than Khao Sok? 8.) What's your best wildlife sighting in a natural setting, and how did you get to see it? 9.) I'm getting that shopping is a big deal for visitors to Thailand - and that's something that really doesn't interest DH (or me all that much, for that matter! :-) ). Why is shopping in Thailand so special? 10.) How did you feel about photographing people? Let me explain a little of what I'm trying to ask: When we went into villages in Africa, we left the camera in the lodge - we didn't want to intrude into private lives, snapping pictures (and I know just our visit could be an intrusion). I would probably just smile and waive if I had a bunch of tourists come into my town and start taking pictures of me, but I could also see taking offense at it. Karen - one image stands out in my mind from your marvelous report (and I haven't gotten all the way through it yet!:) ): The "gaggle" of monks (and how I laughed when I read that line!) getting their daily food from the villagers (or "trick-or-treating in the same costumes" - and I was laughing again!),-back to the serious question- with the tourists lined up taking pictures. How do you think they felt about it? Alright - I'll stop myself for now. Thanks for any input! <font color="green">Cyn</font> |
Yeah, righ t -"I'll stop now"... :-)
Just one more - how's the air quality? We really suffered when we were in China - both outside from the coal burning and the vehicles and inside the temples with the incense. How is it in Thailand? <font color="green">Cyn</font> |
i would make all my res as soon as i could to assure you getting exactly what you want....waiting too long may spell disappointment....all the hotel prices will be available before the end of this month on the discount sites..
about prices: you get what you pay for (not based on usa pricing, but based on thai pricing)...if you pay $40 for a hotel vs paying $100 there is a substantial difference in the places---just like in VT....there are some very acceptable places with limited services and comfort at $40 generally in more remote places...generally during the winter however a place at $40 in a resort setting might not meet your standards....you have to do a lot of looking and reading and ask on fodors...jamesA will give you very valuable feedback which is accurate if you ask and also if you tell him your needs and expectations....a/c is a must imo, although some fodorites claim it is not necessary but a NY'er needs a/c in thailand!! meal prices....in bkk and major areas food is available at all price ranges...one of our favorite rest. is at the marriott mini mall and we get a great thai meal for two with beers and water for about $15 or less.....biscotti (four seasons hotel) you get a great italian meal for about $75, without wine, which would cost you over $150 in boston....a nice dinner can be had at a nice place for $30-40 with beers....wine is very expensive so we avoid it.... book the guides now as their time is limited and many people have been disappointed with non-availability.... driving....in bkk absoulutely no...in some of the outlying areas it is ok to drive, say in hua hin or on one of the islands or in chiang rai....but honestly you can hire a driver and car for about the same price as car rentals and have no frustrations at all and total lux and relaxation.... the unrest is in the extreme south in the muslim areas near the malay border... wildlife....lots of that in nana and patpong (the adult entertainment areas), but i suspect you mean animals....we saw wild monkeys along a stretch of roadway not far from katchburi (sp), but have seen no other wild animals... shopping....thai shopping is very very cheap, including custom made clothing and jewelry....jewelry is an especially good buy, both gold and silver and some stones, especially sapphires and rubies.....quality varries with clothing....home furnishings are nice and reasonable....thai crafts are some of the most interesting and best buys... photos....thais usually don't mind having their pics taken....i find an occasional old lady who does not want to be photographed....i do not consider it an intrusion....i think that is PC bunk....i always hold my camera up and signal my intention of picture taking as a polite gesture...if they wave me off i don't take the pic, usually, but sometimes sneak one.... |
Cyn,
I'm glad you are enjoying the pictures. I really had a fantastic time in Thailand. I'm not an expert, but I'll try to answer some questions. Shopping- Things are very cheap in Thailand, that why I think people love to shop there so much. I'm not the biggest shopper, but I did end up buying lots of things for people back home. In most places you can bargain just like in Africa. Pictures- I always asked the person and/or my guide if it was okay to take a picture. I never had anyone say no. Food- There is a wide range of food. I found the food and drinks to be very cheap compared to the US. You could eat out in nice restaurants for a fraction of the price that it would cost here. I did think wine was somewhat expensive. All of the hotels I stayed in included breakfast as well. Driving- I would definitely not drive myself in Bangkok. I guess it just depends on what you are used to. You can usually hire a car and driver for a reasonable price there and it's much easier. Jenn |
Cyn, here are some of my answers to your questions:
1. hotel/apartment reservations: as soon as you are certain where you want to stay. Feb. & March aren't the height of high season, but some of the places you will want to stay are small. Don't feel rushed, but I'd say you should certainly have the reservations made two months before you go. 2. same for air 3. High end properties for $28-50 a night... well, no. Ther are certainly places to stay in that price range, but they are not high end properties. 4. Restaurants meals are a very good value. Wine, hyowever is not. Wine is expensive, the selection is not especially good. We are wine drinkers at home, but avoid wine in Thailand. Dinner for two at some of the best Thai restaurants (including beer, mineral water, appetisers, entrees and dessert) will be about US$50 or less. You can certainly pay more, especially at Italian restaurants in hotels... the prices will still be much less than at home. 5. Tour guides. I don't hire guides in Thailand. I occasionally hire a car and driver (such as to get to the Prasart in Bangkok or I'll hire a driver to get to Doi Suthep outside of Chaing Mai). You can make car and driver arrangements on the spot in Thailand. If there is one of the guideds mentioned here that you want to hire for a day or two, make arrangements at least a couple of months in advance. 6. Driving - no. Traffic in Bangkok is incredible, parking non-existent, etc. Taxis are cheap. Outside major cities... you could choose to self-drive in the far north in rural areas, but I'd rather have someone else driving so I can attend to the scenery and tell them when to stop for a photo. 7. The unrest is in a relatively small area near the Malay border. It is not anywhere that would impact you. 8. Thailand is not especially the place for wildlife viewing. For that, I'd recommend Borneo (read Kathie's Borneo Trip Report from the end of 2005 and plan another trip) 9. Shopping: I'm only interested in buying things I can't get in Seattle. So I shop for crafts, have gorgeous silk jackets made, buy Jim Thompson designs, and - buy jewelry. I don't frequent the malls (either at home or in Bangkok). While teh jewelry is available in Seattle, the price in bangkok is between one fourth and one half of what I would have to pay in Seattle. Sapphires and rubies are very good deals. If you are interested in jewelry, let me know and I'll give you the contatc info for my jeweler. 10. photos - we always ask before taking photos and VERY rarely does anyone say no. The monks are glad to pose for you and smile and nod to the request to take photos. Some hilltribe peoples and some very old people will say no. |
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