Thanks for the original post and the discussion including rkkwan's interesting perspective and so many other fascinating comments.

At the end of a round-the-world trip a few years ago I visited China and spent time in Kunming with a friend. My friend is a Chinese speaking fellow anthropologist and has done research in the area for many years. I met many of her charming Chinese friends and had a nice time. Kunming is a fairly attractive city known for its pleasant weather and greenery. However, despite what was a great introduction I can't say I would rush back to China, though I am still interested in the far northwest.

We flew up to Zhongdian (also know as Shangri-La) and saw a similar Disneyfication of the old town mentioned by the OP. The whole place is designed to cater to large groups of Chinese domestic tourists and there are very rigid ideas of what tourists should do. I was in the very best situation. traveling with someone who speaks Chinese. We went hiking and hired our own taxi driver but it was a struggle to break out of being told what we would like to do. There's a rigid idea of what tourists like and these are often the only options that are presented.

I'm sure I'll go back to China, my husband went several times in the early 90's and loved visiting with friends but I'm just more enthusiastic about India, Indonesia or South east Asia.

i have seen all of the things mentioned above, and I both agree and disagree with them.

chinese tourists have more than a right to see their own country, which was kept from them for so long. they have a right to make a living and enjoy themselves, but they do not need to outdo the germans in being rude and aggressive. it's in their genes based solely on their numbers.

Disney does not work for me as a description, but i am not sure what the right term is... fake modernism?? over commercialism??

Smog and pollution are two things they need to spend more time on NOW, and I am sure they are..

ray, go to shanghai and compare it to HK--you might find it interesting.

I appreciate June taking the time to talk about the annoyances of china. I'm starting a thread on the annoyances of FL.

how could i fail to chime in on tours or non-tours..

today i feel that the main places in china are very easy to visit on your own... and thus no real assistance is needed day to day.

we prefer to do things on our own and at a slow pace.. tours move toooo fast and slide over things. its more a herd mentality. it is also a mentality of sticking with joan from iowa as she and i have similar backgrounds and expectations. and at the risk of really sticking my neck out i think many tour people are just plain lazy... They are less interested in the place being visited than in the next junk trinket shop...

but this is a generalization of course. some peope would just be unable to travel without a tour.

Oh my...I really seem to have stirred up a can of worms!

Rkkwan - while our trip to China was somewhat underwhelming and a bit disappointing, we did enjoy it and had no regrets that we went. I am merely trying to point out that the China of yesterday is no longer in existence and so, for us, this trip was less interesting than some others that we have taken. It is unfortunate that much of the Chinese heritage and relics were destroyed during the cultural revolution and that the Chinese must now resort to rebuilding itself, sometimes at the expense of giving the "old towns" a Disneyfication feel. I give the Chinese credit for attempting to rebuild and preserve some of its past, as well as for the modernization of its cities so that the people can enjoy the same standards of living that the western world lives. And, as rhkkmk points out, the chinese tourists have a right to travel around and see their own country. The crowds did not bother us...in fact, that is one of the things that makes China unique and we were amazed at the large mass of people visiting tourist spots. We enjoyed seeing the Chinese people touring their own cities. As for the pushiness...that is of course a generalization, but it is something we encountered many times. There were many very kind Chinese people who went out of their way to help us, several times walking great distances to show us the way.

Welltraveledbrit - I think you've gotten my point. While I enjoyed China, like you... "I'm just more enthusiastic about India, Indonesia or Southeast Asia".

Kja - we did not go super high end and we traveled by overnight trains, having some wonderful experiences which I will relate later. I sure do give you credit for your travel style on the fly and loved your report. We tried to go to some places less traveled - Datong, Pingyao, Nanjing, Luoyaung, but missed the southwestern region and Guillin - areas that we decided to save for a future trip. I am less sure now whether we will get to those places as China underwhelmed us and as there are other places where we would like to go.

Bob - I look forward to your thread on the annoyances of FL!!!

it may take months for a comprehensive report june..

Yes China has been modernizing but I would not call it Disneyfication. Anything that is a few hundred years old and made of wood would not be around now unless it was renovated and painted.So, yes the Forbidden city and Temple of Heaven have been renovated but they do so in total respect of the original. The Great Wall has also been restored. You can however visit part of the Wall that had little or no restauration although in some caes it may not be more than a pile of stones.
There are many places to visit in China that have not been modernized. Just visit and live inside the city walls in Pingyao. If you walk around in the morning you may get a glimpse of the donkey carrying a very smelly container as a lot of places do not have sewage and someone has to empty to toilets in the morning.
Time and events take their tool on man-made structure. Go visit the equivalent of the forbidden city in Seoul. It is 100% remade and nowhere near as impressive as Beijing's. But don't blame the Koreans, the Japanese destroyed everything during their occupation.
Finally, a lot of tourists is not only true in China. Traveling is getting cheaper all the time so trying to visit key attractions in Italy has become unbearable unless you don't mind waiting 2-3 hours. And you want to visit the Alhambra in Sevilla in Spain? My friend could not get tickets to get in. I was more lucky as I booked two weeks ahead and got a lousy entry time. As people on a travel blog told me, 3this place gets 3 million visitors per years and you need to book your tickets 2-3 months ahead during the tourist season.
But no matter how many people there are (and I find there is more population density in HK) and no matter if the place was restored or not, it does not take away from the cultural experience of trying new food and seeing a different life. But if you do not like to try unusual food and prefer your clean toilet and soft bed from back home then no point going. Just buy a book with nice photos of the place. Simpler, no stress and also cheaper.

Before we went to China in 2010 we read about the Chinese culture with regard to lines. When in Rome...we pushed back; they backed off. The absolutely only thing we found unpleasant in China was riding the train. We had planned an overnight but weren't able to do it. I still count my lucky stars for that one! We thought the Chinese tourists were interesting. For quite a few of them, my husband and I were a real tourist attraction. I think my photo is being passed all over China right now with groups of beaming Chinese tourists! Since we get up early, we were at the Great Wall at Mit early and had the entire wall absolutely to ourselves. Also very few people at the Forbidden City in early morning. We were so amazed at the crowds we saw as we were leaving. They were lined up 12 deep to see into some of the buildings where we were first in line. We did not do a tour because we did not find any that covered all the places we wanted to see. Looking back, we are glad we didn't. We saw more for less money going on our own. Here is a link to my trip report.
http://www.fodors.com/community/asia...d-in-china.cfm and to my photos: http://garyandsusan.shutterfly.com/china

Speaking only for myself I don't get what travelling high end or low end has to do with it. It doesn't change what we are seeing and doing for the most part. And sometimes low end travel is more fun. Taking the bus in from Beijing airport, not being able to get a taxi and walking up Xidan street for a mile pulling our luggage while trying to find our B&B turned out to be more fun than using the taxi. Walking into a dump of a restaurant and having some locals grab our table from under our noses was pretty entertaining. Getting lost and having an absolute angel stay with us for 30 minutes trying to help us was an amazing experience.

This has been our experience in 23 countries. Expect some hassles. Go with the flow. Tough times are part of the fun. But not for everyone I am sure.

Coldupthere - I agree that the hassles and the unexpected are often the best experiences. The interactions with the people are some of the most memorable. Sorry this trip report is going so slowly, but I will continue soon. You will see that we enjoyed those interactions throughout our trip.

dgunbug,
just sent you an email but I wanted to also quickly comment on your post. Loved reading your experiences and observations....we were in Beijing about a week after you and it's interesting to read what we missed! Beijing was probably the least favorite part of China for us, but of course, how can you not see it? We had a guide for two days, and while I'm glad we did for easing the logistics, I do think that the quality of the experience is lessened because you don't take the time to savor and absorb what you're seeing.

I think travel is so much based on expectations....and the lower the better. I really didn't expect to enjoy China much....I viewed it more as an educational experience and a chance to observe the country that's about to take over the world! (perhaps, at least financially) But, we actually enjoyed it more than we thought and parts of the countryside were particularly beautiful. I actually was a bit surprised that the streets weren't more crowded, that the sky wasn't black with pollution, that I wasn't elbowed and pushed constantly by people, that the food wasn't full of mystery stuff, and that I actually could find a western toilet (often marked with the handicapped sign) more often than expected.

After I finish editing photos, unpacking and going through mail, I'll attempt to start my trip report. Again, thanks for sharing such great details, thoughts, and observations.

sdtravels - what was your problem with the train? I have traveled soft and hard sleeper long distance in China, and have no complaints. Soft sleeper can be quite posh these days.

Thursdaysd - we loved our train experiences and will write about them in my upcoming posts. Just too darn hard to write lengthy posts using the iPhone - afraid to lose info in cyberspace.

dgunbug...having visited China in the old days (1984) and again in 2007...I have to agree..I thought our 30-day trip in '84 was far more exciting than the '07. There little or no conveniences back in '84, no private autos, millions of bikes...street food all over, and very pleasant natives throughout. However, 2007 gve me the comparison that I was looking for and I can't say that Roz and I didn't like the most recent visit. The two were drastically different, galaxies apart. In '84 one had to get in with a tour..no other way. But we had loads of freedom and wandered off every day with another couple of friends who were traveling with us.

In '07, we hired local guides where needed and did all of the planning and traveling on our own, hotel, airplanes, etc. Very enjoyable...different times.

Dg: You've got a lot of travel in you left..I'm finished. So enjoy every trip and never neglect candor. It's refreshing...although I must agree with young Bob...I avoid Florida like a root canal. Robert, may I join you in compiling my annoyances with FL.?

Many more years of exciting travel, Dgunbug! Waiting for the rest of your report.
stu

i'd compare FL more to a filling without Novocaine, rather than a root canal.. all degrees of pain...

Thanks for your input stu and I'm pleased to see you following along. But I thought this report was about china, not Florida! Ok, so Florida is flat and not the best state to live in, but I can think if worse places to be. I've got clean skies, great weather (except for summers), beaches and golf courses. Life's not so bad here. Took me about 35 years to figure that out!

More on china soon.

October 15 – Day 7:

After breakfast this day we grabbed a taxi to take us to Prince Kung’s Mansion, purportedly one of the best-preserved royal mansions in Beijing. This enormous mansion, which used to house several families, has a total area of 60,000 square metres. In addition to the mansion, there are gardens, pavilions, artificial rock hills and ponds. While we were unimpressed with the actual architectural structure which looked like many of the other buildings we saw and were to see in China, we were impressed with the enormity of the building and the fact that the royal families lived so well. There are now many shops selling souvenirs in various rooms of the mansion, along with exhibits which we did not really understand.

Exiting the mansion, we decided to stroll around the lake to visit the former residence of Soong Chingling, also known as Madame Sun Yat-sen. Upon her deathbed, Song Chingling was made honorary chairman of the People’s Republic of China. The mansion is about 80 years old. It was provided for her by Zhou Enlai, a great friend and trusted colleague.

We spent the afternoon wandering through the hutong district again, stopping in an area near the lakes filled with restaurants and shops. Here there were many people eating mutton on a stick sprinkled with cumin and chili pepper, which we also tried and which was quite delicious.

From there we picked up a taxi to the Pearl Market where we decided to purchase eye glasses. After a bit of negotiating, we were quoted $50.00 for my husband’s frames, examination and single vision lense prescription. I picked a frame and was quoted $70.00 for an examination and my more complicated progressive vision lense prescription. We were told to return in an hour for our glasses. While waiting, we wandered the Pearl Market, purchasing a Rosetta Stone Spanish program for $15.00 ($350 in the USA), a light weight Tripod ($10.00), a watch for me ($15.00), and several other small gifts. We had a wonderful time bargaining hard and negotiating prices for our merchandise, generally able to buy all items at approximately a quarter of the originally quoted price.

Upon returning to the eye glass booth, my husband was delighted with his glasses, however, my own prescription was not satisfactory and I could not see out of them. I was assured that they could be remade and was told to return the next day at noon to pick up the new prescription.

Exiting the Pearl Market, we decided to take the nearby subway to the Oriental Place Mall. This mall has a huge food court and many restaurants where locals congregate. We picked one of the restaurants and ordered a vegetable and two chicken dishes that were delicious.

Following dinner we again walked up Wangfujing Street, where we passed by the famous food market, stopping to take pictures of various food items such as spiders, starfish, and silk worm larvae, all on sticks, along with other more commonly seen food items such as meats and fruit on sticks, noodle soups, etc. While the spiders, starfish and silk worm larvae gave us something to gawk over and were great photo opportunities, we really didn’t see anyone eating those items and we wondered if they were in fact eaten or more there to attract tourists!

October 16 – Tuesday – Day 8

Our last day in Beijing was rainy, but as we had seen the major sites that we had set out to see, we were content to take it leisurely, returning to the Pearl Market around 11 AM to buy some other small items as gifts for friends and family and to pick up my glasses. I was greatly disappointed that the glasses seemed no better on this day than on the first and was relieved when the merchant returned my money for the glasses when I refused to accept them.

Upon completing our shopping we took a taxi to the 598 Art District which is also known as the Dashanzi Art District. This area houses an artistic community which is situated amongst 50-year old decommissioned military factory buildings of unique architectural style. We had read that it is often compared with New York's Greenwich Village or SoHo. We wandered through numerous art studios and exhibits, but lost interest quickly. We stopped at a tea shop and enjoyed a wonderful pot of tea filled with flowers.

We returned to the hotel by taxi, cleaned up for dinner and returned to the Oriental Mall as it was a cold evening and the mall was conveniently located close by the hotel. For dinner we decided to try a Thai restaurant which ended up to be uninspiring.

The next morning we would be leaving by train to Datong. Details to follow later.

I had the same problem with progressive vision lens in Shanghai, they returned the half of $50 I put down both times in 2006 and 2008, different merchants. I heard people with single vision lens fare better but a few complained of headaches later.

When I was in Langmu, I had no problem seeing an old China where yaks were being herded in the street. Same for the graaslands, and wheat terraces in Southern Gansu Province. I guess it depends on where you go.

It's true that even in tiny places you have to go out of your way to eat at a restaurant with no English. We did so for 8 days straight, but that was on purpose and we sometimes had to go out of our way to find a place with no English written on the outside or promise of an English menu.

Wow, what a post! And am totally amuse by it....all the comments reflect what western tourists expected from China and thought of it afterward...the exoticness of it or lack there of. This reminds me of some Asian tourists commenting on how much less interesting they thought the States was comparing to Mexico (aren't they all in America?), or how disappointed they were in NYC because of the lack of modernization comparing to any of the big metropolitan areas in East Asia, or 'cuase the old NYC is no longer there just look at Little Italy almost being taken over by China town! And, don't all palaces and cathedrals in Europe look the same?

I completely understand what everyone said here about China. If exoticness is what you would like to see as painted by the imageries known as Indochina, China is definitely not. Nor is western tourists a big focus of China tourism for the past decades as in many of the SE Asian countries (and actually, serving western tourists are THE industry for many of the SE Asian towns.)...so no, you would never find a flower on your hotel bed, or hotel workers smiling at you with their 100 Watt smiles in China. You want to see donkeys walking on the streets in china? they are everywhere... just not where most tourists go to in China.

While I completely respect the sentiment of this post, I am writing because I hope those of you who came across this post to not be turn off by the idea of visiting china, due to the the title of this post, if you were thinking of going for the first time. Go to China if you are curious what a country which will definitely turn super-power in 20yrs is like today, if you want glimpse of why this is the only continuous ancient civilization that remain, and are interested in picking up pieces of its very fascinating history and various cultures that still reflects everywhere... go hire a local guide from time to time, because those folks will provide you amusing stories, legends, what and why and all kind of weird and strange knowledge of all sorts that you will never read on any guide books or forums.

I am sure most travelers on this forum will agree, not all cathedrals are the same. If you know more, understand it more, you will see more....now whether how anyone defines a trip being "enjoyable", that's up to the individual. China can be enjoyable, fascinating, and exotic...if you expect China, to be China.

Sin - thank you for your own perspective. When I began this trip report I debated about what to title it and decided to be frank. China was underwhelming for us and I would say it is the first trip where I actually looked forward to going home. Does that mean that I did not enjoy myself? Of course not. We met some wonderful people along the way, saw some amazing sights and never for a moment regretted visiting china. If you continue to read my report you will see that there were many aspects we found interesting and enjoyable. We went to china knowing that we would not find the china of the past as there has been amazing development over the past 10-20 years. In fact, this development is one of the things we found most amazing and we give the chinese people great credit for the accomplishments. Most people going to china will have an itinerary similar to ours, although they will rush through cities at a quicker pace and probably see fewer places. We had considered going to other areas of china as well, but wanting to go at a slower pace and figuring we would return for at least a second trip, we chose a more limited area. Perhaps we would have found china more exotic had we not been to Asia previously. I have noted all this before.

More trip report soon.