Dgunbug, I'm following along too and enjoying your report. Also for every one responding, there's likely to be several more, if not many more, reading.

A comment, if not a grunt from some of you is always appreciated!

I'm one of the guilty lurkers here. Great report, always a more interesting read with a little conflict.

Re: Bathrooms. Some filmmaker friends took their kids out of school and are taking a year to travel around the world. They have been posting some incredible short videos about their journey and there's one about Chinese bathrooms called "The Most Disgusting Bathroom on the Planet" (not for the faint of heart):

http://www.ayeartothink.com/2012/11/...on-the-planet/

If you want to clear your palate after watching, they have many other videos with much more beautiful images, including this one about the cool neighborhood where they stayed in Shanghai:

http://www.ayeartothink.com/2012/11/...ch-concession/

Crosscheck - thanks for reading along. I loved the video of the most disgusting bathrooms and they did compare to some I visited and I especially loved the signage above the men's urinal!

October 13 – Day 5

Our day began early as we had slept the prior evening away. Still suffering a bit of jet lag, we awakened at 4:30 AM, went down for breakfast at 6 AM when the dining room opened and got ready for our driver who was to take us to our much anticipated visit out to the Mutianyu section of the Great Wall. We had made arrangements through the hotel’s concierge service to hire a driver with good English skills. We were quite pleased with the driver who was very pleasant. At 8:15 we met the driver in the lobby and set out approximately 1 ½ hrs to the wall. This section of the wall is a little further away from Beijing than the most popular section at Badaling, but we decided to go there as we were told it doesn't get as crowded. This section of the wall is fully restored, there are hand rails to help you up on the very steep parts and the views are spectacular. There are two chair lifts up to the wall, each run by separate companies. The first that one approaches also has an optional luge that one can take down. Our driver suggested buying a round trip ticket through the same company. One can decide if they want to take the chair lift back down or the luge, once one is finished. Originally I had planned on taking the luge down as I had read many good reviews on what fun it was, however, the signs said that it was not recommended for the elderly and since my husband recently turned 70 and did not want to use that option to return down, we decided against it. Also, the lines were quite lengthy waiting to get down using the luge, so I was not unhappy about our decision. In retrospect, I believe the better way to walk the walk would be to go up one chairlift and come down on the next. I am not certain if you can buy a one way ticket up one and down the other, but if so, it would be good to arrange for your driver to meet you on the other end so that you don’t have to back track. We were anxious to arrive early to avoid the large tourist crowds, but there were still many people when we got there around 10:00. We spent about 4 hours walking the wall and enjoying the climb, the scenery and good weather. The walk was not as difficult as I had anticipated, but perhaps the walking stick that I purchased before beginning the climb helped. The direction that we walked (left upon exiting the gondola – towards the next gondola) was not initially optimal for pictures as the sun was in our eyes, but the crowds seemed to disperse later in the walk on our way back and the photography was even better as the sun was higher up overhead. Sadly, upon our arrival back at the chair lift for our descent down, we encountered a rescue team which had just given up trying to resuscitate a traveler who had had a heart attack. What a scary situation to have to face as the surviving spouse. It makes one realize how important med evacuation and trip insurance is.

We returned to the room at approximately 4:00, relaxed and freshened up. For dinner, we walked to the Grand Hyatt Hotel which is situated at the end of Wangfujing Street and enjoyed their dinner buffet, which was a mixture of both continental and Chinese foods. Afterward, we strolled back to our hotel, enjoying the pedestrian shopping street which was filled with people. At the far end of the street, closer to our hotel is the Wangfujing Cathedral, also named St. Joseph's Wangfujing Cathedral. The church was beautifully lit up and has a large square in front of it where hundreds of people congregated and danced synchronized dance routines. It is quite amazing how the Chinese people are so active and we were fascinated watching them enjoying themselves. There were people of all ages and there were different groups dancing. One never knows what awaits them at each new corner as one explores new areas. This is one of the things we like best about traveling and just walking around.

October 14 – Day 6:

As it was Sunday, we decided to take a cab and visit the Panjiayuan Antique Market which we had heard was only open on weekends and purportedly best on Sundays. The market is located in south east Beijing, near the Panjiayuan Bridge, East 3rd Ring Road South, Chaoyang District. It covers an area of 48,500 square meters, of which 26,000 square meters are for business. There are over 4,000 shops in the market, with nearly 10,000 dealers. We had heard that this “beloved flea market sells almost every Chinese knick-knack imaginable. It’s a great spot for souvenirs, but bargain hard and treat any claims of antiquity with skepticism. “ We wandered the many isles of Buddhism statues, antique furniture, books and scrolls, paintings, ceramics, Ethnic minority trinkets, etc. Frankly, not being a shopper, I was rather bored with this market and most of the items looked like junk to me.

We happily left the market and picked up a taxi to the Summer Palace, one of the destinations higher on my list of sites to see. Situated in the Haidian District northwest of Beijing City, the Summer Palace is 15 kilometers (9.3 miles) from central Beijing. Being the largest and most well-preserved royal park in China it has been long recognized as 'The Museum of Royal Gardens' and was ranked amongst the World Heritage Sites by UNESCO in 1998. Once a summer retreat for emperors, this 290-acre park is still a retreat for the crowd-weary tourist who can relax here or stroll around ancient pavilions, mansions, temples, bridges and huge lake.

Coincidentally, just moments after arriving at the Summer Palace, we ran into my brother-in-law’s brother and his wife who we knew were touring China with a group, but who we never thought we’d bump into. We were delighted to run into them and were welcomed to join their tour group while they wandered the grounds. The tour spent about 1 ½ hrs at the Summer Palace and while we were grateful to accompany them for a short time, we were even more grateful to retrace our footsteps when the group departed, as they had missed some of the most interesting aspects of the grounds. There is a bit of a climb up to the top of a pavilion which they did not visit. The rock gardens and the views looking back at the lake and upon the city of Beijing were wonderful and we were delighted to be on our own to take in the scenery at our own pace. There were other areas of the park that they also missed and my husband reminded me that this is the reason he likes to travel independently. Our BIL’s family though was quite happy with their tour. Little did they know how much they had missed. We spent several additional hours at the Summer Palace and enjoyed our time here.

Upon exiting the grounds, we found a subway station nearby with a row of western chain fast food restaurants including McDonald’s and Starbucks. We took the opportunity to stop here to use the nice western style toilets and the free wi-fi. By then it was rush hour and we took a long metro ride to Ghost Street, an area lined with red lanterns and hundreds of restaurants. We thought that the area would be more appealing, but decided to leave and return to the hotel. After freshening up, we strolled down the street and ended up eating at an Irish Pub close to the hotel. My husband who is not a big fan of the Chinese food was grateful to eat something different, although the Irish pub was not a restaurant I would necessarily recommend.

Atltravelr - It is always a great opportunity to visit a country when you know people there who can show you around. I'm glad that this report is useful to you. Do you live in Atlanta, GA? Is that what the Atl stands for?

Yes, we live in Atlanta though both of us are originally from the west coast (LA and Vancouver). Our friends are from London and living and working in shanghai and so far they've had very little chance to travel around china. We know we'll stay with them in shanghai and they will join us for a long weekend in ether Beijing (if they haven't gotten there yet), or some other spot that we decide on. As I said, china was not really on our list of top spots, but now I'm getting excited about planning something. First thing was getting out a map and understanding the distances involved between areas we might consider-so different from our Europe planning, more like I imagine someone coming to the US might feel. I don't think we will have more than 2 weeks on the ground and I don't want to spend lots of time flying from one end to the other and back. I'm looking forward to hearing what you have to say about the many trains you took.

One question I have for you already-did you organize your driver ahead of time or just when you got to the hotel? The only people we know who have been to Beijing saw the wall via bus-I think with 4 of us we could spring for a driver.

> There were other areas of the park that they also missed and my husband reminded me that this is the reason he likes to travel independently

One of many reasons to travel independently! I am accustomed to stepping aside to let tour groups pass me, and each time I do, I think how glad I am to be able to see what I want at the pace I want!

june--love all the detail..

summer palace remains one of my best china memories

Atltravelr - whenever we needed a driver, we asked the hotel to find one the day beforehand. Be sure to request a driver who has some English skills. While this is not always possible, in which case the hotel will give the driver detailed instructions on where to take you, sometimes you will luck out with a driver who can communicate with you. In most instances we did not feel a guide was necessary, especially if you have done your homework.

Bob - glad to see you are following along. I'm still following your trip report.

Kja - your own excellent report was one that really gave us the confidence that china is doable on your own.

Bookmarking this as my son is shortly off for a year teaching English in Shenzhen and I know almost nothing about China.

just catching up and still here june enjoying your report. the two highlights of beijing to us were the summer palace and the great wall at mutianyu. it snowed a little while we were at the wall and we were the only ones there on top the hour and a half that we roamed the wall. it was surreal.

Aloha!

@tarquin - if your son goes to Shenzhen to work, he will not really see China.
In my experience, asking the hotel to find you a driver is a sure way to pay double, at least if you are in a fancy hotel. Different story in smaller places like Pingyao for example. In bigger cities like Beijing or Shanghai, it is better to research ahead of time and book yourself.
I enjoy Panjiayuan also but I don't think that there are 10,000 dealers there, not even close!!! The Summer Palace is not for everyone. It is pretty low on my list of things to see and when friends visit me I nearly never take them there. Maybe because I am from Canada, but I have yet to be impressed by a city lake in China. Nothing special for me and always too many people, not my definition of quiet nature.
You mention the two gondolas at the Great Wall. There is only one gondola. The other is a chairlift (not enclosed) If you get to the top using the gondola and walk to the chairlift you are going mostly downhill. In my opinion, this is the best route. And yes you can buy one way tickets.

JPDeM - thanks for the clarification regarding the lifts. We took the chair lift and walked toward the gondola but never quite got there.

We stayed at 4 star hotels and the cost of our drivers were the same as those I had read about previously on various forums.

We enjoyed the summer palace but could have passed on the antique market.

Hi, June. Just now joining along. I haven't been on the computer for a few days and am behind on my own report. I'm very much enjoying yours. I agree with many of the advantages to independent travel that you cite, and there were times I'd like to have been on our own, but the tour worked out well for us. And yes, regarding the Great Wall, we too took the gondola up (one way ticket) and rode the toboggans down (one way ticket purchased at the top).

Keep it coming!

Just to give a different perspective on taking a tour of China. We loved ours and felt that it more than lived up to our high expectations. On this tour, we took the Rick Steves approach. We used the tour for hotels and for efficiently getting from one city to the next, but did a good deal of the touring on our own. We paid for no optionals and used the free time to take the subway in Beijing, and tour on our own in Beijing and other cities. If the tour visited a museum or other venue and we wanted to stay longer we did, and made our own way back to the hotel by taxi. Meanwhile we had efficient transportation to all destinations, and very good guides at all of the places we visited. I would have chosen to visit these places even if I were planning independent travel to china. So I guess not all tours are created equally and not all independent travellers would necessarily dislike a tour. If you know what to expect and can live with someone else choosing the hotels and arranging for the transportation you might enjoy a tour of China as much as we did.

I think your itinerary's perfect! Enjoy your trip to China! :D

Althom1122 & shelleyk - thanks for reading along. And I agree that at times tours are certainly the way to go. One just has different experiences when traveling independently. All the people I know who have taken tours through china have enjoyed them and I remember well althom's tour through India which sounded wonderful. I merely wanted to point out that we were surprised at how much the tour had missed and how we enjoyed out slower pace. I am sure we missed out on things that the tours sometimes cover and the socialization with a group of travelers interested in seeing the world is always nice.

I have been following this thread from Day 1, and want to share my 2 cents now. I think some of you are focusing too much on the method of travel - tour vs non-tour, etc. But the real issue the OP is sharing is the place itself.

I live in Hong Kong and know China quite well. Is China an amazing place? Sure, especially if you haven't been. But will I take a vacation there? No, because it's hard to really ENJOY a place where there is so much to not enjoy, regardless of how to do it - tour or no-tour. Unless you go really high-end and get yourself totally pampered and ISOLATED from the real China. But even that, you still have to fight the crowds at the Forbidden Palace, just an example. Unless you say, "skip that too".

China these days has some of the worst of both worlds. There are old and nice and quiet areas, where you can find real hospitality. But there, infrastructure and logistic can be a problem. Then there are the very rich large cities where things are modern and fairly well-structured, but then everybody is trying to get ahead and take your money. And not to mention that most of the major sites that are truly worth seeing are overrun by Chinese tourists.

So, for those really wanting to see China today, you have to really think about what you want to see and prepare yourself for it. It's not easy to really really enjoy the real China - again, meaning not taking a luxury tour and get yourself isolated from it.

---

Take myself as an example. I've been to Beijing, Xian, Hangzhou, etc while as a kid. And I revisited Beijing last summer. Did I enjoy this past visit? No. Do I feel like I have to visit Beijing again in the next 5 years? No. I haven't been to Shanghai myself, but have no intention of going either.

I took a 3-week trip to Tibet last year. Was it amazing? Absolutely!!! Will I go back soon? Nope. How about other famous and scenic areas like Jiuzhaigou and Zhangjiajie? I haven't been and really would like to see the scenery, but do I plan to go to those places anytime soon? Nope, with all the Chinese tourists running all over those places.

So, I'd rather go other places like Japan, Australia, Canada, Europe for my vacation. Or even Taiwan. China? I will go if and when something comes up, and I probably would find that trip amazing. But will I actively plan a trip to visit some places there? No, thanks.

Again, a place can be TRULY AMAZING, but one doesn't necessary ENJOY the journey.

per rrkwan: "it's hard to really ENJOY a place where there is so much to not enjoy, regardless of how to do it - tour or no-tour. Unless you go really high-end and get yourself totally pampered and ISOLATED from the real China."

I'm sure things have changed since 2010, but I truly did enjoy my trip to China. I certainly did NOT go high-end - far from it! I DID go a bit off the usual path taken by Western tourists. There were some moments that weren't nice, and I think I spoke to some of them in my trip report. But those moments were decidedly overshadowed by the better moments, which not included seeing some spectacular things, but also included frequent encounters with kind and helpful people.

I think rkkwan's advice that one should "really think about what you want to see and prepare yourself for it" is good advice. Actually, I think that's good advice whether one wants to visit China or anywhere else in the world.