South Africa-How Many Nights Per Camp
 

Aloha from Maui. Planning a Sept/Oct 2011 South Africa safari for 6 ppl. Have a tentative intinerary. Should we revise to 3 camps for 4 nights each or keep what we have going? Please be critical of itinerary . . . advice is very welcome.
Camp Jabulani 3 nights -- Thoughts on this elephant experience?
Kings 3 nights
Leopard Hills or Londolozi Tree 3 Nights
Mala Mala Rattrays 4 nights
Many mahalos from tusnami free Hawaii!

Camp Jabulani might be a nice EBS-experience but the fact that the camp is within the Kapama compound (Kapama has a sub-devision which leads big cat trophy hunting incl. canned lion hunts!) is appalling to me as the area is rather small. Kapama also conducts game drives with day tourists in big buses which might also have an impact onto the overall experience.
Last paragraph page 29:
http://books.google.de/books?id=TvGJ...unting&f=false

Finally - the "endangered spedcies breeding centre" is extremely questionable as it breeds in captivity for captivity and many cats end up on hunting farms!
Too many heavy questionmarks combined with facts which would not allow me to even consider anything which is related to Kapama!


Kings camp in Timbavati is very nice and very good value for money! Very good game drives and the wildlife experience can be excellent!

I have stayed at Londo and it's my all time favourite. The sightings are excellent. Here I would definitely stay for 4 nights! Tree camp is gorgeous!

I am not a Mala Mala fan for several reasons:
As far as I know they still have no trackers in place which makes a big different in the overall experience.
IF they have trackers they place these in the back of the car. Also a deal breaker for me personally.
Mala Mala has a very "strange" HR philosophy which dates back into the times when staff was considered a necessity to reach personal goals.
Finally: MM does not get rid of the reputation of baiting their leopards. Whether there is hunting conducted within the reserve is also a rumour which doesn't want to fade.
Many doubts regarding MM.

As you have already two choices within greater Kruger I would stick with rather 2 quality destinations than dividing time between 3 or 4 - particularly I would not change from one venue to the next within one reserve.

Happy planning!

SV ((@))

Hi There Diane,

I wish I was in Hawaii right now! I lived on Oahu for three years when I was a submarine office in the Navy. Now I live in Minnesota where it was 5F this morning! At least I get to go to Africa several times each year.

Are you thinking of going to all of these properties on the same trip? I would not recommend that at all. The properties are relatively very close together. I highly discourage my clients from going to two camps in the Kruger area much less four! I have been everywhere you mentioned except Camp Jabulani. It is personal preference but I do not like the reserves that are fully fenced. Kings, Leopard, and MalaMala are all open and unfenced to the Kruger National Park ecosystem. Jabolani, along with its sister property Kapama are in a fully enclosed reserve outside and separated from the Kruger ecosystem.

If you have 12 days to spend on safari and you don’t want to spend the money for Botswana then I recommend the following:
MalaMala Rattrays – 3 nights. The best general big five game viewing in South Africa. The largest private game reserve in South Africa. This week two of our clients even saw cheetah here and my business partner saw cheetah four weeks ago at MalaMala. They are rare in the Sabi Sands.
Phinda Vlei – a totally different area in South Africa. The best cheetah and black rhino viewing in South Africa. We saw five cheetah in one game drive last May!
Mashatu – just over the South Africa border in Botswana’s Tuli Block game reserve area. One of the largest private game reserves around!
Zimbabwe – six nights at Ruckomechi and Little Makaolo. These are two of the best camps in the country. This would be my top choice to couple with MalaMala if you don’t have a Botswana budget.
Botswana – 6-8 nights at three different camps in the Okavango, Chobe, and Linyanti. I recommend you up the budget and go here!

I guess I need to know more information. Why are you considering so many lodges so close together? As the crow flies, MalaMala is less than four miles from Londolozi and the lion prides even cross over the land. They share an entire North/South border. Have you read about these places or is an agent actually advising you to make this trip? You said be critical and I do not like your plan at all. I would never recommend what you are doing to a client of mine.

I respectfully disagree with SV's assessment of MalaMala. I have been there many times and sent many guests there. Since the trackers walked out in December 2008, the game viewing has improved as the non-unionized rangers can stay out after dark. The tracker union required them to be back in camp shortly after sunset. I saw a fantastic lion encounter there last year well after dark.

Since you are going in September try to make it to Hermanus to see the Southern Right Whales calving. You can see it from the beach!

Craig Beal

I've been to Kings Camp four times, MalaMala Sable three times, and Leopard Hills one time. All are great. Although being in Sabi Sand reserve MM and LH has slightly better game, big 5, viewing.
Do you know about the rate special for Kings Camp and Leopard Hills, (your TA should have told you)?
http://www.kingscamp.com/rates/specials.html
Pay for six nights at those camps (any combination) and stay for eight. That is a 25% discount, if $$$ are consideration.

Agree some what with Craig about staying so many nights in same area. But - I do it year after year :-) . Agree with Craig about MalaMala.

regards - tom

Same thing jumped out to me. Too many camps on the same lands.

Fine if you want to split time between camps at Timbavati, Manyaletti and Sabi Sabi, but not two that are miles apart at Sabi.

And, do take note of cary999's comments re extended stay discounts that some properties are offering. Ask your agent about these.

I also think that's too many nights in the same area. Craig gave some excellent options. I loved Botswana in the Okavango area, Mashatu and the Sabi Sands and Timbavati. All are excellent choices. Just so you can see where the camps you are considering, check out:
http://www.sabisand.co.za/ and look for the map of the reserve.
http://www.rhinoafrica.com/destinati...the_timbavati/

Our next trip will be to Zimbabwe (the safari camps are doing well.) and Phinda is high on our bucket list. Either the Okavango or Zim combine well with Victoria Falls if that might interest you. Is your entire trip going to be safari, or are you considering Cape Town too? Sept is perfect for wildlife viewing.

IMHO, I would look into Botswana. It's really a special place with special people. Careful, though! I thought our first trip to southern Africa would be our last. I'm planning our third visit in five years.

Zimbabwe in 2010 is the best VALUE in all of Afirca IMO. Rates are 50% less than 2008 & 2009.

Craig Beal

Craig, Sandi, anyone, question please about Manyeleti Reserve. (Between the Timbavati and Sabi Sand reserves).
I was looking at the Honeyguide tented safari camps there as another one to visit in that general area. However I saw mentioned somewhere that off road game drives are not permitted in the Manyeleti reserve. So I emailed Honeyguide (reservations office?) with the question. Here is their response -

Good morning
Thank you for your email.
Unfortunately we do not allow off road drives.
Kind regards,
Janine Norval on the behalf of Alison Bell
Reservations

This sound right? Certainly crosses Manyeleti reserve off of my list.

regards - tom

Tom,

That is correct - you can't go off road in Manyaleti. But, even with that information Sande at our office went there last year and she thought it was a really good value. We send people there all the time (usually on a budget) and never get any complaints. Lions (in the day) and leopards (at night) are more likely to use the roads at places where you can't get off road because the bush is thick and not mashed down. They like the ease of walking down the roads (seems to me).

Craig Beal

Thanks Craig for confirmation.
But at R3,350 $445, pppn, that's budget prices???
http://honeyguide.hitsites.co.za/index.php?ID=9468
Also, I'm sure I'd find that very frustrating for photography.

And while I've got your ear, can you recommend another camp or two in the Timbavati (other than Kings of course)? I'm planning on Kings again, but always like to try a new one. In Timbavati I've only been to Kings. Anything in the Klaserie?

regards - tom

For Tom regarding KLASERIE:
I doubt you would like to go somewhere where animals take off as soon as they hear a car because of hunting:

http://www.sanparks.org/forums/viewt...38739&start=90

SV ((@))

It's been some years that we were at Honeyguide/Manyaletti, and as Craig mentions, I don't recall off-roading, per se. The game here were often on the road or close enough, that there was almost no reason. And, for sure you don't see another vehicle here.... whoopie!

One night (late for dinner and yeh, very dark) returning to camp we heard lions roar and our guide found a narrow track that took us to the most awful smell of an almost completely eaten small giraff with hundreds of lightening bugs flitting above. We had come upon a large pride of two massive males, half-dozen females, half-dozen year-old youngsters and maybe another half-dozen 3-4/mo old cubs. Wow! There we were sitting in the midst of these magnificent animals and clicking away. Except for some young ones curious about the newcomers, the rest were too full to give us more than a glance.

Needless to say, we didn't get to our own dinner till about 9:30pm.

SV - I went to that SNP link and it is not clear to me what is said nor why.

"What concerns me is that Klaserie have notified the outfitter that they are disallowed for the forthcoming current season."

regards - tom

As I understand a Klaserie eli had been advertised for hunting as being a Kruger eli.

Obviously SANPARKS had a chat with those people.

And yes - the quote is weird. Maybe the outfitter got punished for the ad.

Nonetheless: Klaserie obviously allows hunting which most probably has an impact onto photographic safaris.

SV ((@))

SV - "...Klaserie obviously allows hunting..."
Not obvious to me. Guess I don't have the whole story like you do!!!

regards - tom

Tom,

We have used Gomo Gome in the past but not since they moved locations on Jan 1, 2009.

I have been to Ngala Tented and Ngala Main. Both are good camps.

Craig Beal

Thanks Craig.
Gomo Gomo moved, like you said, now replaced by Simbavati, I think. Rates are very reasonable, would like to see some reviews.

I've heard Ngala tented is good but rather $$$$. I was at Ngala Lodge for 8 nights in Sep 2008 and some good things but too many important ones I found lacking, won't go back.

regards - tom

Tom,

I know you like the KNP so why don't you stay at Orpen rest camp and drive around the western border area of the KNP/Timbavati? I bought some water bottles at the rest camp and was in the lobby area at Ngala tented camp less than ten minutes later. They are very close. The central and west part of the KNP near Orpen is a very quiet area.

Craig

Tom

The first entry in that thread leads you to:

http://www.africahunting.com/hunting...onal-park.html

which is the reason for the whole lot of postings to come.

Post on page 2
Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:14 am




"It is on a private concession in Northern Kruger Park and the CITES was issued(sic) by the Parks Board. Every year there are a few CITES put out for 40 pounders to control the numbers.

Greetings
Neil Gagiano"

There you have it folks. Straight from the horse's mouth. Will elephants now be hunted in the Maluleke area? Now let's hear from Dr Mabunda what is going on.

****

Post on page 5 states "Klaserie".

But anyway - Timbavati ....Thornybush.....all are hunting areas.

SV ((@))

Thanks everyone for all the input. We did Botswana in 2007 --Chitabe, Kwetsani, Selinda and then up to River Club. So this time we wanted to concentrate South Africa. If we did:
*Mashatu 3-4 nights
*Kings 3-4 nights
*Mala Mala Rattrays 3-4 nights
*Leopard Hills 3-4 nights
Are Mala Mala and Leopard still too similar? Is Phinda Vlei a better option than Mashatu Main? If thought if we gang up Mashatu/Mala Mala and Kings/Leopard I might be better off for rates. Pafuri has been suggested but I've been reading it isn't the best for game . . . comments on this?? Our small group is good together, however one couple is used to luxury, but I'm trying to maintain a balance with game viewing as first priority . . . a bit of a challenge.

Personally, I'd love to do those camps - and on the same trip. Even if MalaMala and Leopard Hills are a little too similar. But they will have a different look and feel and they do not share the same traversing/game drive area. And both are luxury so the others will find no complaint there. And I'd do them in the order you have listed except maybe flip MM and LH. If logistics (airfields etc) of it works out better for you.

regards - tom

I recently did the Sabi Sands/Pafuri/Mashatu trip. It was perfect for us as we got to see a lot of different areas. There are a few reasons why this works so well. Getting to/from Mashatu is inconvenient as the flight has to go through Polokwane. If you go to Pafuri, it's an easy 4-5 hour drive (we got drivers for our transfers and it worked out perfectly and cheaper for us, and we were just two - for 6 it will save A LOT of money) and you don't miss a game drive at either location. For 6, you'll have your own game drive at Pafuri, so I would cut the last one a little short, ask for breakfast by 9:30 and leave for SS by 10 or 11 AM. If you don't do Pafuri, it's a flight from Mashatu to Polokwane to JNB to Mala Mala and only on certain days, and it takes all day and missed game drive in MM (I think). So the Pafuri thing makes it work really well. But Pafuri is not a great wildlife camp, but I must say that we enjoyed it thoroughly as there were hippos, crocs, really interesting topography (don't miss Lanner Gorge on a morning drive) and the fever few (green trees) forest was amazing and the baobab trees were abundant. Great birds and the tents overlook the river and animals were there all day. They had two large animals we had never seen before - nyala and eland - and other drives had better luck with cats. And it is a beautiful tented camp, which I love!! Two nights in Pafuri was plenty, as the animal population was not great, but the ones we saw were really great, including a giant eagle owl. We would have liked it more if we had liked our game drive mates. They were not nice and it took a lot to have to put up with them. But that was just bad luck, not Pafuri's fault. I would recommend the Mashatu/Pafuri/MM trip highly. Mashatu was amazing. It is not as high end as all of your other camps but very nice. Staying in Main camp you can also visit the rock art on the property. That would be a highlight for me. We stayed at tented camp - not an option I would recommend for you if luxury is important - so we couldn't go to the rock art. To avoid the BS of JNB to Polokwane to Mashatu, you can also get a driver for that part, which again I recommend. But the amount of animals so exceeded our expectations!!! I have a trip report on here somewhere - search arathusa or click on my name to find it if you are interested.

I don't know the logistics with Phinda, but that's high on my list for next time. I'd look into the logistics for Sabi Sands to Phinda and see if it works as well as the other option.

Mashatu 4 nts
Pafuri 2 nts
Kings 3 nts
MM 3 nts
LH 4 nts

Wow - I'm jealous as heck on that one.

Kings 4 nts
MM 4 nts
LH 4 nts
Phinda 4 nts

Wow again. I'm just not sure about how to get from one place to another because I've never done it. Either way - GREAT trip!!

MM Main Camp will likely save a bundle over MM Ratrays. You will drive the same area and see the same animals for less $$$

dianne,
i drove myself from malamala to pafuri and then to mashatu. i agree whith christa that it is a fantastic "circuit". i did spend the night in the timbavati on the way to pafuri.

i have also been the phinda and the couple looking for more luxury would likely find this place a bit more enjoyable, but i must say mashatu is amazing.

i have been to all three lodges at malamala and all four at phinda. my favorite at malamala is rattrays and for $300 pppn i think it is worth it. you also get four to a vehicle. phinda vlei is my favorit by far at phinda.

during the worst of the recent recession i had several clients on their first trip to africa that i convinced to self-drive the malamala-pafuri-mashatu circuit. this was a fantastic way to have a top-notch safari when everyone was on a budget. the charter flights increase the cost dramatically without impacting the safari on arrival one bit.

craig beal

What is the -time- trade off for driving to Mashatu versus flying??
I think when Carla and Cindy drove it (in 2008?) it took them a day and half. They got car, left Joburg and stayed overnight at Tzaneen. Then next morning drove and crossed Bots border into Mashatu. But with four of them they saved significant $$$$ from four flying. However, if only two persons, would doubt much savings when you add all the expenses of a car, meals and staying overnight. You pays your money and you takes your choice :-)

regards - tom

tom,

last december (2008) i left the lodge at 0715 AM. I was at the border post at 0815 AM. I was ten miles from the Jo'burg airport at 2:15 pm.

it took me 3.5 hours to drive from pafuri to mashatu.

it took me about 5 hours to drive from ngala (orpen gate) to pafuri but we drove INSIDE the park not outside.

pafuri has FI rates (fully inclusive) and BB (bed and breakfast) so if you drive and show up late in the day you don't have to pay for missed acitivities.

craig beal

We had two flights, Mashatu to Polokwane charter, and an Airlink Polokwane to JNB. It took over four hours. I would have much preferred a car transfer even taking out the cost factor. According to Mashatu, it's a 5 hour drive +/- .
http://www.mashatu.com/travel_road.htm

I had the same drive drive times as Craig. It really was a fantastic circuit.

Interesting. But some details there not clear to me. Such as, is Mashatu camp 6 or 7 hours drive from JNB? Craig just above says 1 hour to border then 6 hours to near JNB, so looks like 7 (plus) hours. Note border crossing closes at 4pm. I think that is why Carla/Cindy stayed over night at Tzaneen. They did not want to arrive late at border crossing nor arrive at camp and miss the afternoon game drive. Smart. BTW, seems as though neither Carla nor Cindy visit here much anymore. Too bad, our loss.

regards - tom

If you fly or drive you have an hour drive to the border crossing where the car is parked or the airport where the plane is parked from the camps. I figured I'd leave it out as both modes of transportation require the same initial drive. Mashatu has set times that they meet or drop off passengers. It's on the website if you'd like that info. Sorry I'm not as clear as past posters.

So-
"Please note that the rendezvous time for collection by Mashatu rangers is 13h00 at the Pont Drift Border Post. Variation of this time can be made by special arrangement and at an additional special transfer fee of US$ 25.00 per person. "

I was wondering about that. Further explains why staying overnight at Tzaneen. To make that 1 pm ranger pickup you would have to leave JNB at 7am for a 6 hour drive. Details, details, details. We'll figure this out yet!!! What else is there to do, sure is slow around here tonight :-)

regards - tom

I've been travelling for over a week and really wanted to respond to a couple of post on this thread.

First I'll share my experience of the Mashatu / Mala Mala drive.

Driving from Mashatut to Mala Mala. We left Mashatu around 7, that put us first in line at the border post at 7:45, which opened at 8. Our SA driver picked us up and we drove with two small stops for gas and bathroom / food, and arrived Mala Mala main camp around 3pm. So 7.5 hours drive time thereabouts.

Second I want to speak to SV's remarks abour MM.

"Finally: MM does not get rid of the reputation of baiting their leopards. Whether there is hunting conducted within the reserve is also a rumour which doesn't want to fade."

What utter BS, I can't believe you get away with this crap. How exactly and when are the Leopards baited? And if they are, how come I had such poor Leopard vioewing on my last trip, as a regular guest you'd think they'd want to ensure I had a great trip so I could write about them on this forum.

As for hunting - that statement is probably libelous, I'm not sure if MM have seen this thread, but I'm sure they would take exception to that statement. Look at a map of MM and tell me exactly where you think this hunting might take place?

It's a big property but none of it is more than a 30 minute straight drive from any camp (including Kirkman's), and with a good numbner of vehicles you'd think someone would hear the shots (I'm asuming hunters don't use silencers). I've driven pretty much every road on MM, I know because I have the roap map issued to trainee rangers, which I like to follow along occasionally as we drive. I've been to every corner of the reserve and pretty much the only skittish animals I've ever seen, where ones coming over from Kruger, which is MM's eastern boundary.

SV you have some interesting things to say - but this line was complete BS and I belive you know it. If not why not back it up with some of the facts you have so readily available to defend your other positions. You don't because you can't. And if you have proof show us - I triple dog dare you!

Until you can prove something you should not make wild allegations about a professionally run operation that does not bait Leopards and does not allow hunting. When you prove there is hunting on MM, I will not visit again.

napamatt

Let me assure you - I am not interested in trowing out false allegations.
I am not speaking of ONE individual who stated doubts regarding MM ethics in view to hunting within its reserve. And I did not hear the baiting statement just twice.

The people who mentioned both hunting and baiting work within the industry - not as guides but at management level respectively are researchers. All have one thing in common: They are working in their fields for decades, are very well respected members of the safari industry and have no reason to throw dirt at places. Their professional attitude is unquestionable.

I just stated what I heard and I must say I tend to believe in those statements as they come from different sources which are in no way connected to each other.

The unbelievable leopard sighting success rate at MM and Mashatu speak for themselves.
Just add 1 and 1.

I don't like MM for totally different reasons which have nothing to do with baiting not to mention hunting.
My reservations are based on their perception regarding hospitality/service combined with their HR politics.

You can believe it or leave it.

Finally - I stated what I heard at several occasions from independent resources in South Africa and in Botswana. You call it BS. I am not embarrassed at all but it would serve the communication flow if we wouldn't start using such terms when speaking to each other.

It's similar to stock investments: One tends to believe what serves the own idea or assumption.

Have a nice evening.

SV ((@))

SV - FWIW, I believe you, that you -heard- this, and I believe you have been lied to.
Second hand accounts are not reliable. Has anyone, anyone, heard this from previous MM <b>employees</b>??? And there are now many ex MM rangers out there not working in SA, in London, in other industries. Furthermore, there are too many people out there envious of MM success and love to bash them. You also???

regards - tom

SV - unbelievable sighting stats? No different than Londolozi, perhaps the Varty's bait. In fact no different than all of SSGR.
The only baiting is the importation of ungulates in the far west (Ulusaba and others location) that keeps animal denisty high, which leads to high densities of predators.

Again you have provided no proof, only hearsay from people you say are well respected. I'm telling you, I do not know how it would be possible to hide hunting on MM. Given the management style at MM, and that I'm sure a fair proportion of people end up really disliking the Rattray's (strong people have that effect, its either like or dislike) so who's to say they don't have an axe to grind.

I too have heard a Leopard baiting story from the 1970's, but it was never corroborated. But that was over 30 years ago, when sightings were from hides built for the purpose because the animals were not yet habituated, so it's probably true.

Perhaps your contacts could identify where the hunting takes place, so that those of us with first hand knowledge of the property could ask ourselves whether it would be possible.

Aloha Diane, what a surprise to come across this post. I have spent five of the last ten years on Maui and the other five in the African bush. I will be on Maui from December and am happy to spend some time talking through all of this with you - if you are still looking for advice. I am currently guiding in Zambia, but spent a number of years working as a ranger in these lodges in the greater Kruger area. I would be only too happy share my knowledge and give you my recommendations. If you are still looking for some advice let me know, but please feel free to contact me regardless - [email protected].

I'm sure we have at least a few friends in common - look me up using my email address on facebook if you wish. I hope to meet you on Maui.

Best wishes,
Brent