Msg to LyndaS-REF; HONEY
 

Hi Lynda - Glad you have a great safari and hopefully you had a wonderful time at Kichwa!

I saw your posting about the details of Honey's death. I have known the details for months and had been asked not to say anything until those details could be 'safely' released.

I have a phone call into my contact and if I could ask you not to post anything on Fodor's yet WE would really be most greatful.

I hate to ask you this, but it would be best for all those concerned.

This is getting outrageous. I cannot imagine how revealing the facts, however awful, about which human screwed up and killed this wonderful animal and put her cubs at risk can be wrong. Only the truth getting out and someone being held responsible (I suspect someone at Kenya Wildlife Service) will be good for the future.

I do not know who you are DanaPhx but I cannot imagine how this can be right after almost four months.

LyndaS please tell us and get the horrible truth in the open.

Kevin from California

Agree with Kevin. Lynda, the truth needs to be told now by someone NOT involved. This cover-up has gone on long enough!

I can't help but wonder what it means "not to say anything until those details could be 'safely' released". What is at risk? (maybe someone's reputation?)

Lynda, I'm with Kevin and Denis, this has gone on for long enough and nothing is being told and I'm sure if you thought that it would be a bad thing to post you wouldn't have mentioned it! Also, if it is being told to people visiting the Mara, which is where I'm assuming you found out, then what's the difference telling it here .... is it OK to hear it in the Mara but not 'at home'?????

And just to add, these are Dana's posts on the original Honey thread:

Author: DanaPhx
Date: 03/21/2007, 03:25 pm
I have faith in the Conservancy that the 'truth' will be know and it probably will surprise us.
_______________________________________

Author: DanaPhx
Date: 03/30/2007, 01:31 pm
I haven't heard anything on 'investigation' but I do know from a realiable source that Honey's three remaining cubs are doing well!

We may never know what exactly happened, which is quite unfortunate. Let's hope that nothing like this happens again especially if someone was at fault, even by accident.
_______________________________________


Now Dana is saying she has "known for months"... a bit different from what she said back then!

Imelda

I agree with Kevin, Dennis, and Imelda!

Why the secrecy, DanaPhx? What are people afraid of?

Moira

This situation stinks more by the month. We can handle the truth but not the cover up, its way past time to tell. If the authorities in this matter don't want it to come via bush lore than issue the facts! Premptive censoring of returning visitors to the area is not going to be effective for very long and just adds to the offensive nature of this entire fiasco.

I agree with PB, Imelda, Kevin and Dennis!

Me too (or is that, me five?)!

This reminds me of the Jack Nicholson line from the movie
"The truth...you can't handle the truth"
Regards,
Eric

In some cultures the most important thing is "saving face". Over and above even the truth.
regards - tom

Tom, do you think someone would "fall on the sword" over this!?
Regards,
Eric

Why fall on any sword, why admit guilt or place blame? Just put the cause on some unknown uncontrollable factors. Like the EgyptAir Flight 990 Crash in 1999. The only probable cause could simply not be admitted to by the Egyptians.
regards - tom

Lynda - POST AWAY - I should never had said anything about Honey/cubs. The court investigation was going on , etc, etc, I apologize for speaking to you all. Won't let it happen again.

Dana
I can understand there being a reluctance for matters to be discussed whilst there is an investigation or court case BUT it seems to me that when the truth is already out there it does very little good to try and hide it at that point. Locking the stable door after the horse has bolted, as it were.
All the secrecy has done is to actually draw more attention to the issue than would ever have been garnered had it been released straight away. People would no doubt have expressed outrage and then forgotten about it and it would have faded out of memory.

Dana or Lynda. Somebody! Please put the details on this forum.

Chui

Oh oh, sorry guys, didn't mean to start a controversy here!

No need to apologize Dana, I did say hi to everyone for you by the way at Kichwa Tembo - I was introduced to the manager on the first night we were there, (oh my goodness, I can't believe I didn't write down his name)so I asked him about the people on your list. He took me over and introduced me to Joseph Masibo - what a nice guy he was! He said he certainly remembers DJ and he said he was looking forward to seeing you in Sept! Kenneth Nyaga was on leave, as well as Sammy Ngugi. He introduced me to Shieni the next night, he made a point of coming to find me to introduce him! He also is really looking forward to you coming in Sept - one of the guys told me you have been been coming for years & they always look forward to seeing you!

I met a lady there from England (can't recall her name either) that goes there every year also - and, as soon as her husband & her retired they actually moved to Kenya. That way she said, it was cheaper to vist Kicha Tembo every year!

Just going upstairs for a few minutes, and then I will post the story on Honey - I do agree with everyone else that it needs to be told as speculation is sometimes worse than the truth. But at the same time, I am glad Dana that you came back and said go ahead.

The story of Honey-

This was told to me by our guide from the Kichwa Tembo Camp, as I asked him for any information on her. (my apologies if I have written down anything wrong on this, I am sometimes not so good at hearing correctly where there are accents involved - no head for music either, apparently the two go side by side!)

Last year, as everyone knows, she had five cubs - 4 boys and 1 girl cub, I believe. They lived near & in the bushes at the foot of Kichwa Tembo Camp which is on the side of a hill just east of the Oloololo Gate. I believe we saw them last May when we were there as we saw a mother with 5 cubs near the same location - but our guide at the time did not tell us it was Honey. He just said a mom and five cubs. I am only concluding it was Honey by info I saw on this board.

Sometime last year - I couldn't quite make out when - Honey and her five cubs left the Kichwa Tembo area and went to meet the migration that was at that time near the Serena, 30 km south. Good take out lunches sounds like...

Anyhow, the girl cub was attacked and killed by a lion there, one night while they slept. Not eaten, just killed, as lions feel this is necessary apparently. I don't understand why, seems useless to me.

Honey and her four cubs returned to their location by Kichwa Tembo. The fourth cub died when the heavy rains came - our guide told me he drowned. When I asked how that would happen, he said something but I didn't quite understand it, so I couldn't say for sure.

That left Honey with three cubs - all three are boys. One of them was injured shortly thereafter - a baboon attacked it, and hurt his paw. It was quite bad, and, as reported by someone else on this board, he was being left out of the hunting & playing by the other two cubs. KWS decided to try and fix it as they could see that he would not be able to hunt properly, or even learn to hunt with this injury. They anestithized (sorry, spelling, can't say it either)Honey as they knew shw would never let them near the cub to fix the paw. And, as reported, she died in the heat of the day while under anesthetic.

KWS felt very bad, and knew that they would not be able to survive at their age unless they had a little helping hand, so they did leave game for them, but at the same time, not enough for them to start to depend on that. The boys did learn to hunt on their own, KWS did not have to leave much game for them at all.

And, today, they are over by the Serena again and thriving as the new 'three brothers' - our guide told us they decided all on their own to go back to the Serena - they travelled for one day, stayed 4 days in the spot they stopped at, and then took another day to go the rest of the way.

They are all doing very well. We were on our way to see them when Daniel, our safari director, spotted a mom and her three cubs just a little north of the Serena. He told us that she would be staging a kill with the Thompson's Gazelle just across the road & suggested we watch for a while. Well, four hours and a second degree burn on my arm later, we had experienced the most AWESOME moment of our lives - the kill. (not the Thompson's gazelle though...) We never got over the hill to try and find Honey's cubs - next year!

But that's another story, and Jim is calling me for dinner - our first homemade steak in three weeks!!!

Thanks Lynda! What was so bad that they had to cover it up for so long? Yes it was tragic, but obviously an accident on their part, not a deliberate act. The months of speculation just made it worse.

On another note, can't wait for another one of your excellent trip reports!
Welcome Home!

Bill (Pred),

As a scientist, do you think perhaps that the embarrassment of those responsible (and the reason for their coyness in coming clean) has more to do with the error of judgment in intervening than with Honey's accidental death under anaesthetic? I personally feel the cub should have been left to its fate, if it couldn't be treated without upsetting its mother. Intervention has resulted in one fewer, capable breeding female.

John