Msg to LyndaS-REF; HONEY
 

Hi Lynda - Glad you have a great safari and hopefully you had a wonderful time at Kichwa!

I saw your posting about the details of Honey's death. I have known the details for months and had been asked not to say anything until those details could be 'safely' released.

I have a phone call into my contact and if I could ask you not to post anything on Fodor's yet WE would really be most greatful.

I hate to ask you this, but it would be best for all those concerned.

This is getting outrageous. I cannot imagine how revealing the facts, however awful, about which human screwed up and killed this wonderful animal and put her cubs at risk can be wrong. Only the truth getting out and someone being held responsible (I suspect someone at Kenya Wildlife Service) will be good for the future.

I do not know who you are DanaPhx but I cannot imagine how this can be right after almost four months.

LyndaS please tell us and get the horrible truth in the open.

Kevin from California

Agree with Kevin. Lynda, the truth needs to be told now by someone NOT involved. This cover-up has gone on long enough!

I can't help but wonder what it means "not to say anything until those details could be 'safely' released". What is at risk? (maybe someone's reputation?)

Lynda, I'm with Kevin and Denis, this has gone on for long enough and nothing is being told and I'm sure if you thought that it would be a bad thing to post you wouldn't have mentioned it! Also, if it is being told to people visiting the Mara, which is where I'm assuming you found out, then what's the difference telling it here .... is it OK to hear it in the Mara but not 'at home'?????

And just to add, these are Dana's posts on the original Honey thread:

Author: DanaPhx
Date: 03/21/2007, 03:25 pm
I have faith in the Conservancy that the 'truth' will be know and it probably will surprise us.
_______________________________________

Author: DanaPhx
Date: 03/30/2007, 01:31 pm
I haven't heard anything on 'investigation' but I do know from a realiable source that Honey's three remaining cubs are doing well!

We may never know what exactly happened, which is quite unfortunate. Let's hope that nothing like this happens again especially if someone was at fault, even by accident.
_______________________________________


Now Dana is saying she has "known for months"... a bit different from what she said back then!

Imelda

I agree with Kevin, Dennis, and Imelda!

Why the secrecy, DanaPhx? What are people afraid of?

Moira

This situation stinks more by the month. We can handle the truth but not the cover up, its way past time to tell. If the authorities in this matter don't want it to come via bush lore than issue the facts! Premptive censoring of returning visitors to the area is not going to be effective for very long and just adds to the offensive nature of this entire fiasco.

I agree with PB, Imelda, Kevin and Dennis!

Me too (or is that, me five?)!

This reminds me of the Jack Nicholson line from the movie
"The truth...you can't handle the truth"
Regards,
Eric

In some cultures the most important thing is "saving face". Over and above even the truth.
regards - tom

Tom, do you think someone would "fall on the sword" over this!?
Regards,
Eric

Why fall on any sword, why admit guilt or place blame? Just put the cause on some unknown uncontrollable factors. Like the EgyptAir Flight 990 Crash in 1999. The only probable cause could simply not be admitted to by the Egyptians.
regards - tom

Lynda - POST AWAY - I should never had said anything about Honey/cubs. The court investigation was going on , etc, etc, I apologize for speaking to you all. Won't let it happen again.

Dana
I can understand there being a reluctance for matters to be discussed whilst there is an investigation or court case BUT it seems to me that when the truth is already out there it does very little good to try and hide it at that point. Locking the stable door after the horse has bolted, as it were.
All the secrecy has done is to actually draw more attention to the issue than would ever have been garnered had it been released straight away. People would no doubt have expressed outrage and then forgotten about it and it would have faded out of memory.

Dana or Lynda. Somebody! Please put the details on this forum.

Chui

Oh oh, sorry guys, didn't mean to start a controversy here!

No need to apologize Dana, I did say hi to everyone for you by the way at Kichwa Tembo - I was introduced to the manager on the first night we were there, (oh my goodness, I can't believe I didn't write down his name)so I asked him about the people on your list. He took me over and introduced me to Joseph Masibo - what a nice guy he was! He said he certainly remembers DJ and he said he was looking forward to seeing you in Sept! Kenneth Nyaga was on leave, as well as Sammy Ngugi. He introduced me to Shieni the next night, he made a point of coming to find me to introduce him! He also is really looking forward to you coming in Sept - one of the guys told me you have been been coming for years & they always look forward to seeing you!

I met a lady there from England (can't recall her name either) that goes there every year also - and, as soon as her husband & her retired they actually moved to Kenya. That way she said, it was cheaper to vist Kicha Tembo every year!

Just going upstairs for a few minutes, and then I will post the story on Honey - I do agree with everyone else that it needs to be told as speculation is sometimes worse than the truth. But at the same time, I am glad Dana that you came back and said go ahead.

The story of Honey-

This was told to me by our guide from the Kichwa Tembo Camp, as I asked him for any information on her. (my apologies if I have written down anything wrong on this, I am sometimes not so good at hearing correctly where there are accents involved - no head for music either, apparently the two go side by side!)

Last year, as everyone knows, she had five cubs - 4 boys and 1 girl cub, I believe. They lived near & in the bushes at the foot of Kichwa Tembo Camp which is on the side of a hill just east of the Oloololo Gate. I believe we saw them last May when we were there as we saw a mother with 5 cubs near the same location - but our guide at the time did not tell us it was Honey. He just said a mom and five cubs. I am only concluding it was Honey by info I saw on this board.

Sometime last year - I couldn't quite make out when - Honey and her five cubs left the Kichwa Tembo area and went to meet the migration that was at that time near the Serena, 30 km south. Good take out lunches sounds like...

Anyhow, the girl cub was attacked and killed by a lion there, one night while they slept. Not eaten, just killed, as lions feel this is necessary apparently. I don't understand why, seems useless to me.

Honey and her four cubs returned to their location by Kichwa Tembo. The fourth cub died when the heavy rains came - our guide told me he drowned. When I asked how that would happen, he said something but I didn't quite understand it, so I couldn't say for sure.

That left Honey with three cubs - all three are boys. One of them was injured shortly thereafter - a baboon attacked it, and hurt his paw. It was quite bad, and, as reported by someone else on this board, he was being left out of the hunting & playing by the other two cubs. KWS decided to try and fix it as they could see that he would not be able to hunt properly, or even learn to hunt with this injury. They anestithized (sorry, spelling, can't say it either)Honey as they knew shw would never let them near the cub to fix the paw. And, as reported, she died in the heat of the day while under anesthetic.

KWS felt very bad, and knew that they would not be able to survive at their age unless they had a little helping hand, so they did leave game for them, but at the same time, not enough for them to start to depend on that. The boys did learn to hunt on their own, KWS did not have to leave much game for them at all.

And, today, they are over by the Serena again and thriving as the new 'three brothers' - our guide told us they decided all on their own to go back to the Serena - they travelled for one day, stayed 4 days in the spot they stopped at, and then took another day to go the rest of the way.

They are all doing very well. We were on our way to see them when Daniel, our safari director, spotted a mom and her three cubs just a little north of the Serena. He told us that she would be staging a kill with the Thompson's Gazelle just across the road & suggested we watch for a while. Well, four hours and a second degree burn on my arm later, we had experienced the most AWESOME moment of our lives - the kill. (not the Thompson's gazelle though...) We never got over the hill to try and find Honey's cubs - next year!

But that's another story, and Jim is calling me for dinner - our first homemade steak in three weeks!!!

Thanks Lynda! What was so bad that they had to cover it up for so long? Yes it was tragic, but obviously an accident on their part, not a deliberate act. The months of speculation just made it worse.

On another note, can't wait for another one of your excellent trip reports!
Welcome Home!

Bill (Pred),

As a scientist, do you think perhaps that the embarrassment of those responsible (and the reason for their coyness in coming clean) has more to do with the error of judgment in intervening than with Honey's accidental death under anaesthetic? I personally feel the cub should have been left to its fate, if it couldn't be treated without upsetting its mother. Intervention has resulted in one fewer, capable breeding female.

John

Lynda,
Thank you for telling the whole story. It was very much as was guessed back in March but even so it makes me sad. It really does prove Pred's point, wildlife shouldn't be interfered with. I am glad the 'brothers' are doing well though.AND they are in the Serena area!!! - we made 3 trips from the Serena to Kitchwa Tembo to see them and their Mom last year - that's one long journey for three little cubs!
Anyways, I'm glad it's all out in the open and I can't imagine that it being known will do any harm, in fact, I think it will have the opposite affect - although I really wish that KWS had released the details when it happened - would have stopped the 'storm' brewing!

One more thing, Dana, you mention a court case - what's all that about???? Surely the're not prosecuting someone because of this??

Lynda, I CANNOT wait to read about your trip.

Imelda

The KWS killed Honey ... what could have been worse exactly - from the KWS' point of view in terms of PR, everyone?

They're not much better at PR when it comes to the good things they do, if that is any comfort to anyone....

Whilst they did kill her, it was obvious from the way the truth was being hidden, that they were responsible. I still think this would have made less of a splash if they had simply revealed the mistake at the time, apologised, made sure that lessons were learned and moved forward.

I am surprised they intervened to help the cub when it's injuries were not caused by human intervention but by another animal in a natural situation. That's usually not done so perhaps that's why they were so embarassed when it went wrong.

But everyone makes mistakes and I can't see what has been gained by building up the interest with all the secrecy.

Please ignore my comment - I forgot I am still on "vacation" from commenting on such threads....

Pretty silly to say this now, but I'm going to try not to comment further so on the off chance someone comments directly on my post I don't want them thinking I am playing "hit and run".

Damn, Kavey - you're too quick for me ;-)

Hi Lynda! Thanks so much for telling us what happened. I figured it was something like that but the secrecy made me wonder if it was something even worse.

I love big cats and would hate to see one suffer like the cub with the injured paw, but I think Pred is right...since it was a natural injury not a human injury they should have left it alone and let nature take its course.

Moira

Lynda, thank you for posting that story.

It further strengthens my disgust at shows like "Big Cat Diary," which I watched once, since it turns wild animals into Disney characters, with cute names. I wonder how many people on safari asked to see Honey by name, as if she's a television star. Shows like that destroy much of the wildness of national parks, turning them into amusement parks.

I wonder if KWS would have intervened it the star's son had not been injured?

Michael

Michael, that's a good point indeed.

From my experience in talking to the guide about this, I would have to say though that to the guides & the rangers, Honey was not a star - she was just the cheetah mom with five cubs by the Kichwa Tembo area. The reason I say this is because our guide last year never once mentioned 'oh by the way, that's Honey', as mentioned I am not even sure that that is who I saw, but it was a mom with 5 cubs over by Kichwa Tembo. Once I read about her on the board when I came back, I concluded it had to have been her.

And, this year, when I asked our guide about Honey, he didn't seem to associate the name at first. Only when I said the mother cub that died with the three cubs, did he seem to know who I was talking about. It didn't seem like he, or others referred to her by name. Although I do know from our experience with the kill later that they do sometimes name, amongst themselves, the specific cats in the Mara. (I asked if our cheetah mom had a name and he said 'not yet', I then asked if others did, and he said 'sometimes they do give them names'.)

On the whole though, I do agree with most others - the truth was an accident and speculating on it probably caused more harm than saying "I made a mess, and I'll clean it up" right from the beginning. It was tragic, but it was an accident.

Dana, I do hope I have heard all correctly, and I do apologize to you & everyone else if I have miss-reported anything, or have bad information - this was hearsay after all. Please correct my post if there is anything I have miss-reported.

Lynda: thank you for bringing this story back, it really needed to be told and I hope officials will document what happened with a disclosure in the future.

John: yes, I think there has to be tremendous embarassment for violating the 'non-interference' ethic and having it blow up but it also sounds like there may well have been a medical error too if they let Honey overheat. There is always a danger when you put an animal under but perhaps the proper precautions were not followed leading to a negligent death. This is why its still important for an official statement on what happened. If Dana is correct about a court case I would guess it would involve either negligent handling or violating park rules with the interference (speculation, I have no idea what their rules are).

Cheetah cub mortality runs at very high rates so having two boys make it to maturity would have been a great success and perhaps if left alone the third boy would have learned to cope with his injury. I've seen three legged animals making it in the wild let alone those with a limp so its hard to know what he might have been able to overcome, especially since he had two brothers to try and tag on to. Instead a vibrant mother and all her future contributions were lost and without more interference the 3 boys probably would be gone too. I just hope this story comes out as a lesson to park managers not to intervene in natural happenings. There is so much conservation management these days that sometimes requires handling and accidents can and will happen but choosing to help some animals over natural obstacles taints the whole system. Best that mistakes are admitted and learned from.

This entire fiasco endorses the fact that man should not involve himself in the entirely natural processes of an eco-system. What a bunch of baloney.

Continued selective medical remedies will only help in diluting the gene pool ultimately leading to the collapse of the species. Sadly we should be watching the weak die and the strong survive, horrible as that sounds that is the way it works.

Have you ever seen a weak Impala? A tommy with a broken leg? A buffalo with a heart condition? No...they are eaten .....

But I do support selective sccience that attempts to reinstate species whose numbers have declined as a result of the encroachment of man and his propensity to distribute lead to the head of now endangered species.

The law of unintended consequences strikes again

Thanks, Lynda!

There is rumor that the vet from KWS who had treated/sedated Honey during the intervention was not experienced enough. Apparently, the regular vet was not there that day.

Because of this other vet's lack of experience, Honey was not monitored properly while under the sedation.

Honey was audibly making respiratory distress noises but it went unnoticed because everyone was busy tending to the cubs.

Like Lynda mentioned, the heat and sun finally (and unfortunately) took a toll on her.

An unnecessary death of a rare and beautiful animal.

very well said napamatt
regards - tom

Thank you Lynda for bringing the story to us.

Thanks Lynda, hopefully KWS will have learnt by this horrible event, but I can understand why it was hushed up as they must have felt so bad about it all!

We saw Honey and her 3 cubs on our last game drive in the Mara last October and only knew it was her after a discussion that same evening with a wildlife photographer who visits the area regularly and identified her from our description and location.

It's great that the 3 cubs are now self sufficient.

Africa! how unique is it? It was our best vacation everrrr!

LyndaS:

Thanks for confirming what we had guessed. Tragic. Hopefully, they will learn from this to not fool with Mother Nature.

Kevin from California

P.S. Who is DanaPhx and why in favor of the KWS coverup?

Kevin, I'm not really sure who Dana is, but she is very well known at Kichwa Tembo, she visits there every year. When I mentioned she said to say hi, everyone there knew her and was looking forard to seeing her again in Sept.

Dana, come back on the post, let us know the answer?