Kirkman's Kamp versus Exeter River?
 

For a mid-range first time 12 day SA safari in September 2011, I'm trying to decide between these two camps for 4 of the nights. (There is a 4 for 3 special). KK would have potentially more people than ER, but apparently (according to posts which may now be out of date) longer game viewing times & less people in vehicle. Ngala Lodge has also been suggested for 4 nights (like the sound of waterhole & again the deal) but reviews a tad tepid on these boards and I worry about noisy young children. (Love the little dears, but maybe not on safari.) Final 4 at Forest Lodge, which all seem to like a lot. We may go on to Sodwana Bay, as we love to snorkel, though that sounds a bit iffy due to tides and winds. A bit too old for roughing it & flying from SF so need as much comfort as possible. Any info or added suggestions on any of above much appreciated! Also: is it likely I'll see lots of giraffe? Love those guys!

Maybe a little bit of help, I've been to Ngala Lodge 8 nights in Sep 2008 and Kirkmans Kamp 5 nights in Sep 2009. Kirkmans easily better in every way, except perhaps for meals/food equal. Forget Ngala Lodge. (Think Ngala Tented better).

Not been to Exeter but heard good things. Of all three Exeter Camps: River, Leadwood, Dulini. I'm sure they share traversing rights. I'm sure they would also be good as Kirkmans. How about logistics getting in and out, same? Both in Sabi Sand but at different ends and both run by &Beyond.

regards - tom

Hi there

I've stayed at both Kirkmans and ERL. Kirkmans has a very old-worldly feel to it, it is a beautiful property and the game viewing was also very good when we were there. Unfortunately you don't have the type of views from the rooms and quite the nice setting that you would have at ERL. Exeter River Lodge is one of my favourite lodges due to the fact that they are situated on the river and the rooms were built to maximise the view. The lounge/dining area also has wonderful views and we were served lunch under a huge tree next to the river every afternoon - pure bliss. If it is about luxury, I would definitely go ERL. Rangers at both lodges are well trained and I enjoyed the food at both as well. Game viewing at ERL was also excellent.

Kind regards

Hello,

I've stayed extensively at both lodges(Kirkman's and Exeter).
When it comes to accommodation Exeter is more luxurious than Kirkman's. The question you've got to ask yourself is: How much time do I really want to spend in my room?

Food is very similar at both lodges aswell as the staff.

Game viewing has two main facets:
Firstly, like you mentioned, Kirkman's do put less people in a game drive vehicle. they keep it to max 6 whereas Exeter go up to 8 if it's full.
Secondly, Quality vs Quantity. Exeter is situated in the Western Sector of the Sabi Sands and shares 10 000ha(22 000acres) with ten other lodges. Approx. 25 game drive vehicles. (400 ha per game drive vehicle) With more vehicles out, there's a bigger chance of someone finding something somewhere...Thus a bigger quantity of sightings. But a limit of max 25 minutes is usually applied at cat sightings.
Kirkman's Kamp will only send out 6(maybe 7) vehicles on 6300ha. Thats 1050ha per vehicle. So that means that when something is found, quality time can be spent with the animal. It's all up to your motives regarding what you want out of your safari.

I recently stayed at Phinda Forest lodge and loved it immensely! With almost double the number of bird species than Kruger, it's a birder's paradise!! Getting there is a bit pricey though...

My personal choice would be andBeyond Kirkman's Kamp. Quality game viewing, great rangers, good food and great overall guest experience!

Kind Regards,

KK01

Agree with KK01. Western Sabi is all about Quantity. Too many lodges for my liking. I was at Exeter, though it was Dulini Lodge. Fantastic lodge and service. Cars at Dulini were not over-crowded. Sightings in that Western Sector were all on a queue system and really frustrating in terms of photography.

That said, I have not been to Kirkmans. But, I'm sure it's fantastic in every way and beyond .......

I forgot to mention that I've stayed at Phinda Forest Lodge a number of times and never less than four days at a time. It is one of my favourite places in the whole world - the birding, game viewing, food, staff, rooms...everything is just wonderful...so enjoy that!!
Kind regards

Thank you all! What a great resource this is! Of course I am now quite conflicted! We never do "luxury", so that is sounding quite appealing -- I love the thought of that river view from the room at ERL, with maybe elephants wandering by. Late Sept. is low season, so maybe not too busy in vehicles.

KKO1: since I have never been on safari, it is hard for me to truly get the impact of the two game drive styles, though I understand what you're saying. Sounds like at ERL there's a chance of more sightings for shorter periods of time & maybe more people in vehicle.

Tom: Was the game viewing what really put you off Ngala (I read your report) or the overall experience? I would like to stay somewhere with a watering hole & that does not seem so common in SA, at least from what I've seen so far. Would it give a better/more diverse experience (animals & topography)to include Timbavati as well as Sabi Sand? Or not...

living4safari: Since there are apparently several (7?) different kinds of habitat in Phinda, would you think we'd be seeing them all in a 4 night stay? Or is that why you stay longer?

Appreciate everyone's comments. All best.

We are staying at Ngala lodge in September-is really that bad?

I'll just respond to the Phinda habitat question. A four night stay allows 2 nights in the south at Rock (pricier) or Mountain (more moderate) and 2 nights in the north at Vlei (pricier) or Forest (more moderate). The north has the unique sand forest habitat and broadleaf forest habitat. The south has the mountains and the river.

You could see all the habitats in a 2-night stay if that were your goal. I stayed one week at Forest.

One reason to spend several days, besides it being a great place, is there are also about 7 different activities including walks, leopard tracking, aerial safaris, rhino tracking, canoe/kayak/boating & cultural activities. You could do something different every day for a week. I spent 3 mornings tracking rhino, for example, among other activities.

Summarize Ngala Lodge in 25 words or less-
Rooms average. Camp staff, and food/meals excellent. EVERY game drive "wasted" 30 minutes -each way- by going way south to adjacent property near Ngala Tented. My guide below average, I changed after a few days. Overall game viewing average. (Ok, so 37 words).

Timbavati and/or Sabi Sand. Very similar terrain, not big difference. (They are only about 10 miles apart). But if you are staying 8-12 days in that area then you should stay in 2-3 camps just for the different camp and guides. I like camps stays of 4 or more nights. Would not necessarily move from Sabi Sand to Timbavati if you find two camps in one that you are interested in. Charter air between these reserves-camps is typically $150-200 per person.

Your game drive guide/ranger will really make or break your game drives. By far the most important person to/for you in camp. (Yes, even more than the chef :) ).

Know you said you read my report, for anyone else, FWIW, my Fodors report that included Ngala Lodge -
http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...4&tid=35161085

regards - tom

We usually see all seven habitats even though we only stay at Forest Lodge. I've been on more than one specialist safaris there which also makes a difference, because then you have your own private vehicle and you can literally go where you want to on the property without having to be concerned about other guests on the vehicle (that is the ideal!). To me, Phinda = paradise. The canoeing is almost a MUST and so is tracking on foot.
Kind regards

SBW,

I see you are really hanging on to the romantic scene of lying in bed and seeing elephants come drink from the water source right infront of your room. This is great and I'll definitely recommend ERL in that case. Late Sep is a perfect time to spend 4 nights at a lodge situated on the Sand River. You'll have some of the best game viewing in Africa in a very luxurious setting.

Regarding Phinda - I have to say that Phinda offers a bigger variety of things to do.(incl. all the above mentioned in ann's post) Spending time on a boat on the Mzinene river was absolutely amazing. Seeing birds that do NOT occur anywhere else in the world. Walking in the magnificent Sand Forest surrounded with 2000 year old Lebombo Wattles(BTW, 1100ha of the remaining 4000ha of the world's Sand Forest is located on Phinda Private Game Reserve). This is truly a special place on this amazing earth. If you choose Phinda, don't split the 4 nights. It's really easy to see the southern, more rocky area of phinda. Your guide will try to show you all the different habitats Phinda has to offer anyway.

Hope this helps.

Kind Regards,

KK

Parts of the sand forest, mentioned in such glowing terms above, permit you to walk around safely by yourself on trails between the Forest Lodge cottages. Some of my best antelope and monkey photos were taken as I just wandered around. The Forest Lodge location allows you to maximize your time in this beautiful setting and do so at your own pace between scheduled activities.

You should be aware that Phinda is a fenced reserve of around 55,000 acres.

I believe there is still a walking camp you can book that is located in the north. As I recall this was a less expensive option than the other lodges and you could pick the # of days you wanted to spend. The walks from camp were primarily done in the morning and then drives were done in the afternoon, turning into night drives. If you were going to do lots of walking anyway, I think this would be an attractive alternative (not just for budget reasons) and one I'd look into on a return trip.

Phinda do not offer Walking safaris anymore. The camp was shut down.

A brand new hide has been built at Forest lodge and I saw 7 Green twinspots bathing together at 10h in the morning. A very rare bird to see at Phinda. Magical place indeed!

Phinda is indeed fenced but so is Kruger, Sabi Sands, Timbivati etc. Every game reserve in the world is fenced. That's just the way it is...Phinda Private Game Reserve is one of the best conservation success stories I have ever encountered and I am so happy to have witnessed the final result.

Fenced, so is planet earth compared to the universe. Phinda is 23,000 hectares, Kruger 2,000,000 hectares. Kruger about 90 times larger than Phinda. No comparison. Kruger about the size of our state New Jersey. Phinda about the size of Brooklyn NY.

Also, re Timbavati and Sabi Sand. They are fenced as an extension of Kruger. That is, their east side is open to Kruger so game is free to migrate both ways. In some sense you could say that the Timbavati and Sabi Sand are as large a Kruger. Of course one big difference is that the two reserves are private property not National Park.

regards - tom
ps - a hectare is 10,000 square meters. In English acres a hectare is about 2.5 times larger. E.g. Phinda is 57,000 acres.

"To me, Phinda = paradise."

"Late Sep is a perfect time to spend 4 nights at a lodge situated on the Sand River. You'll have some of the best game viewing in Africa in a very luxurious setting."

"Seeing birds that do NOT occur anywhere else in the world"

"The Forest Lodge location allows you to maximize your time in this beautiful setting and do so at your own pace between scheduled activities."

Gee, I wonder why I am now so excited??!!

Thanks to all for sharing knowledge & enthusiasm!

Best, Liz

PS -- still chewing on Ngala Lodge -- guess there is an airstrip; my husband would hate that...

What do you mean about the airstrip?

I have been to both Phinda Forrest (twice) and Ngala Tented once. I have no plans to ever go back to Ngala.

There is no comparison to me between the two lodges. Phinda game viewing was excellent except for leopard, and its my understanding that the leopard viewing has greatly improved since I was there. The food was great and the staff was great. The idea that its fenced was a completely non issue for me as I never saw the fence.

My experience at Ngala Tented was at best OK. The tents were nice but when windy, they were noisy and the monkeys would play on them, creating a racket. The food was OK, but not great. My ranger was nice, but like Cary999, inexperienced. Fortunately I had a good tracker which helped. My game viewing experience there was not that great with the huge exception of seeing wild dog. I will credit the ranger with great viewing, but that was the only thing of merit in 3 days.

I would highly recommend Phinda over Ngala. If the leopard sightings are what they say now, it would be fantastic. However wild dog sighting, if that is important, would not likely exist at Phinda.

Mike

Atlantasugar: there is an airstrip next to Ngala Lodge (not N. Tented, which mytmoss is referring to.) My agent tell me there would be approx. 2 flights in & 2 out per day. Probably not major for most, especially if you are out looking for stuff, but my husband has a "thing" about noise from small aircraft & can hear it miles off. Not sure it's going to be the place for us, though apparently a very good value with good game viewing. (Though, as noted, possibly not for the expert photographer, as per Tom.)

Tom,

I am merely pointing out that seeing a fence on a game drive should not be such a bad thing seeing that all other reserves have them. Keeping in mind that Phinda uses every opportunity to drop fences with neighbouring properties, this is gives a guest the chance to appreciate where his/her money is going to preserve the magnificent beauty of nature.

Kind Regards,

KK

Really intersting comments. I am off to South Africa bnext month (Kirkmans and Ngala) and will report back.

In advance of that it really depends on what you want. I am a regular African visitor who mainly goes to see the animals. I therefore chuckle at comments such as "I will credit the ranger with great viewing, but that was the only thing of merit in 3 days" as, for me, it is the overriding purpose !

On the fenced or not fenced arguement there are again two sides. Phinda is a fantastic project that would never have happended without fencing. There is however an artifical factor in that the predators do use the fences to hunt - there are numerous stories of the Madikwe wild dogs driving antelope towards the fences so that they have nowhere to go. In times of drought it also means that artificial waterholes need to be created as the animals cannot migrate. I was also at Kapama one year and they had to resort to actually feeding the herbivores as there was so little grazing.

Phil

Phil are you going to Ntented or Ngala Chalets?

Hi

Chalets - there are six of us (my two teenagers and another couple) so the chalets were as far as the budget would go ! I have stayed at cc africa / & beyond lodges before and they are all great so for me I went for extra nights instead of a bit more luxury.

Phil

I have been to Ngala Lodge and it was OK. I must first say that it was the only chalet we stayed in on that trip - everything before had been tents. I much prefer tents. We also had been at camps that had communal dining - this was the first time we didn't done with fellow travelers and camp staff. That said, I think we had inexperienced guide and tracker. There were a few times we had to tell the guide we had a sighting. But it's also the place I saw our first rhino so I have a special place in my heart for it. We spent a lot of time, as tom said above, getting out to the safaris - and passing the cell tower twice a day was annoying. I don't remember the water hole having any animals visit, and we didn't have a view from our room anyway. But no concern about the airstrip - almost all the camps have one and are not a big deal. I stayed in Sabi Sands and much preferred it - we had a very limited budget so we stayed at Arathusa (loved it and had a view of water hole - giraffes were one highlight). I have considered other lodges for our next trip, and the thought of not having that water hole is a toughie!

We are just now planning a trip for next year and Phinda and Kirkman's are in the top three. You have time to research a bit more, and get more confused and excited, before you decide. The airfare between Phinda and Sabi Sands is high, just FYI.

The airfare between Phinda and Sabi Sands is not high, its exorbitant. I would love to go back to Phinda but the cost is prohibitive (since I travel by myself). If you stay at multiple Andbeyond lodges, I think you get a break if you go between two of them (I could be wrong).

Mike

Anyone know how high? High airfare must be why the agent has us driving from Exeter to Nelspruit (2hrs), flying to Durban, & then driving 3.5 hrs to Phinda.

With my agent I know the breakdown of each camp's cost and of each flight/charter flight. Cost of every basic expenditure. This lets me make trade offs for value and time. Your agent knows each cost also.

Not sure if airline you question is South African Airways or Federal Air, or ?? But look those two up on net.

regards - tom

If you fly between Phinda directly to Sabi Sands, it was Fed Air. The cost for 1-2 passengers was a bit over $1000 when I did it a few years ago. I have no idea now.

And Tom is right, in that if you want to get somewhere in a hurry, its the way to go. I did it once, no regrets, but now I would rather spend the $1000 differently.

Mike

Interesting, thanks Mike. Sooooo, you may have choices, like, fly Sabi Sand to Phinda for $1000 and arrive Phinda in time for the afternoon game drive. Or fly/drive Sabi Sand to Phinda taking all day and staying over night outside of Phinda then going in next day. Remember, if you arrive at your safari camp after 4pm you have likely missed the afternoon game drive and what you have left is a $1,200 dinner and bed. Your agent should be watching out for you on such things.

regards - tom

Thanks, guys. I'll be bringing this up. Mike, I did look up Fed Air, but don't know enough to tell name of airport that would serve Forest Lodge.

In my research for my trip, I found that the road transfer from Richards Bay to Phinda is only 2 hours or a 30 minute flight. Now I have to figure out if there is a flight or less expensive charter to Sabi Sands neighborhood. It might be a possibility.

I think Fed Air will fly you to any lodge in Sabi Sands you want to go, for a price.

Tom I paid the price because time was short and I did not want to miss a minute in the bush. As I said, no regrets! I got it all.

Mike

Hi Mike, my reply wasn't really addressed to you, just general comment regarding the situation when traveling to a camp. And as you say, lots of trade offs between time and money.

regards - tom

I have found that most lodges will try and accommodate you if you arrive later than 4 pm, and still try and take you out on a shorter afternoon/evening game drive if at all possible. Late arrivals are very common due to travel times and distances, so the lodges do their best to fit you in and still go out on a game drive for you.
That said, if budget allows I would probably advise to maximise the time at the lodge by flying in and getting there earlier, especially if your stay is only 2 nights or less. Like Tom said, your agent should be watching out for you on this and give you the options available, and cost implications.
Back to the question of Kirkmans vs Exeter River Lodge, I prefer the accommodation and style of Exeter River Lodge, but I prefer the game drives at Kirkmans. Kirkmans is a colonial style lodge with tin roofs, not your typical thatch roof African style game lodge. Also, some folks don't like the hunting history and animal trophies at Kirkmans (like a stuffed buffalo head looking at you from the wall).

Hey wildwings, great to have you here on Fodors. Always good to have input/information from someone who lives in "safari country".

You mentioned Kruger being your favorite destination. One of ours also, been there 3 times in last 4 years, last time in Sep of 2009. We like to start at Kruger before heading over to the Timbavati or Sabi Sand reserves. Anyway, Kruger, what is you favorite area there? We have spent most of our time thus far in the central area, Satara, Letaba, Oliphants.

regards - tom

Thanks Tom. I also like the central area, especially Satara to Olifants camp region. I also love the Lower Sabie area. Nice variety of bush and we always have excellent game viewing there. The far north is nice and quiet, less animals but also less people, and great for birding.
How have you found the Timbavati compared to Sabi Sand?
Regards, Onne

Onne - Yes, love that Olifants river bridge. When we were at Oliphants Sep 2009 the camp was under heavy refurbishment. Our hut number 5 had just been finished and was very nice. Next time Kruger we'll have to stay south camps. Your favorites there?

Timbavati and Sabi Sand - Sabi Sand wins every time. I've been to Timbavati three times to Kings Camp and love it. Once to Ngala Lodge, it was just ok. Been to Sabi Sand camps MalaMala three times, Leopard Hills once, and Kirkmans Kamp once. Love all three, will go back.

Have you been to any camps in Timbavati, I would like to try another there.

After each safari I write a Fodors trip report but I'm not sure how you find them. So FWIW here's a list -
Tom/cary999 South Africa, Zambia and Kenya Sept 2006
http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...4&tid=34881694

tom/cary999 South Africa: Madikwe Hills Lodge, Kings Camp, Leopards Hills, five nights each in May 2007
http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...4&tid=35016274

Tom/cary999 Trip Report: South Africa: Kruger, Kings Camp, MalaMala, Sep 2007
http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...4&tid=35083850

SOUTH AFRICA September 2008. Safari camps Kings Camp and Ngala Lodge, both in Timbavati Reserve bordering Kruger. Eight nights at each camp.
http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...4&tid=35161085

Trip Report- South Africa: Kruger, Kings Camp, Kirkman's Kamp, Sep 2009 http://www.fodors.com/community/afri...p-sep-2009.cfm

regards - tom

Those of you going to any of the lodges in the Western Sabi sands in the next couple of weeks, dogs are denning out there at the moment. Saw some updates some place the other day on the net.

All of this input wonderful.

Tom, thanks for putting all of yr reports together; I had already been studying them & always seem to find some new detail.

WWings, Have not yet attempted to get another plan for going into Phinda. Will be curious to know what you or anyone else has to say about Timbavati; don't think Ngala Lodge on the cards anymore.

Am wondering if we should instead do 4 more nights at Phinda, maybe at Vlei. Or split up the 12 nights, 6 at Sabi Sands & 6 at Phinda: Exeter River, Kirkman's, Forest & Vlei (the outdoor plunge could be my waterhole!). All andbeyond, so get 12 night for the price of 8. But wonder if it's worth the extra packing/unpacking. These are the problems to have...

I love the Timbavati, have been to several lodges and some of my favorite (and more affordable) lodges are Motswari, Simbavati and to some extent Kambaku. Kambaku has had a change of lodge management since I was there and I have not been back since. Simbavati is the old Gomo Gomo camp, overlooking a river. Not the same level of luxury as the more expensive lodges, but I love their safari tents. Motswari has some of the most wonderful people, fantastic food, and decent rooms. The lodge also overlooks a river. Umlani as a bush camp is nice, if you prefer rustic reed and thatch huts with no aircon. Also overlooks the riverbed. Of course the top end lodges like Ngala, Kings Camp and Royal Legends are much more luxurious but also more expensive. Tanda Tula is also nice. The game viewing is about the same, no matter which lodge you go to. In general, the game viewing in the Timbavati is not as plentiful and consistent as in the Sabi Sand. In my experience the animals tend to be more skittish in the Timbavati, not as comfortable with vehicles as in the Sabi Sand. This affects the quality of sightings and photographic opportunities. A leopard in the Sabi Sand is less likely to run away from an approaching vehicle. You can have some excellent days in the Timbavati and some very quiet days. I enjoy even the quiet days because the bush is more open than in the Sabi Sand, and a bit more varied too, with pockets of mopani bush here and there. Really beautiful place. So for game viewing, Sabi Sand comes out on top, but for the bush experience I tend to prefer the Timbavati.