Economic Troubles
 

Have any of you who frequent Africa seen a reduction in American/European tourists? Have the camps been empty?

I am wondering what this is going to do over the next 1-3 years for that market.

May be a good time to store a little away to get a good deal.

Thoughts

scootr
african destinations were fantastic with europeans based on the weak dollar in the past year or two.

but despite of the weak $ there were MANY american tourists in southern and eastern africa!

maybe in view to kenya it will change next year slightly as the $ is still down (not as much as 4 weeks ago but still..) and the parkfees/conservation fees almost double from 40$/pppd to 75/80$ in some areas around massai mara.

there is the fifa worldcup in the pipeline which will make up for some decrease as long as the room rates don't are rocketing.

i would assume it's remaining on this year's level if the recession in the US is not too massive.

i trade also in $ and have got a good bolster (1,56:€) which keeps me favourably swinging for some time :-)
(i live in austria)

div

scootr,
Look for a sharp reduction in safari tourists from all countries. The economic slowdown is global and the entire travel industry will certainly feel the pinch. This may provide opportunities for some but even those who can still afford expensive trips will feel uncomfortable spending large amounts on expensive destinations (i.e., Africa). Some camps may have to close down so advance payments might bring some risk. Most travel insurance policies are fussy on how they cover the policyholder for financial default. I think it would be wise to use an insurer (not AIG) that does cover financial default. Even then their terms are never quite clear. My guess that for those who are able to act on short notice, bargains will be available.
Ted

Hi Scootr,
I haven't the experience of travelling in Kenya/ Tanzania to know whether the occupancy we experienced in August/September this year was way below normal or just a little.
All our Kenyan camps were less than half full, still suffering even in high season, after the troubles in January.
In Tanzania although not every camp/ lodge was 100% full most were nearly so. I believe some agents have said that many customers originally booked into Kenya switched into Tanzanian destinations instead.

Kavey,
I think what you witnessed was in response to the troubles regarding the election in Kenya. I thought scootr was refering to the current economic troubles.
Ted

Yes, sorry, I meant to add... given that I'd only been to those two countries, I felt it was impossible to assess what percentage of reduction in tourism was down to economic situation and what percentage down to the troubles in Kenya earlier in the year.

To put a different twist on the title Economic Troubles, are any of you altering or nixing travel plans?

We were in Kenya the last of June and noticed that the number of tourists was way down. I thought it was because of the conflict that plagued the country earlier in the year.

On my recent flights to Africa (HNL-SFO-JFK-JNB and back all were completely full. I'd guess to say the SAA flights (Airbus 300 & 600)were mostly American tourists.
Didn't meet a single American in Kgalagadi-all we met were from South Africa and a couple from Italy, though it's not a tourist destination by far.
Awaiting a quote for an all Zimbabwe trip for next year...depending on the price of airfare and land costs, I am still considering going.

Interesting topics and very relevant. Wall St. versus Main Street and the largest loss in stock market history today, and the events of the last weeks/months have dramatically effected the World economy. And of course dependance on foreign oil.

Home foreclosures, sub prime lending (which is hitting Europe as well) is causing major consolidations and lost pension plans and ira's for millions of Americans. And now our congress as they call themselves (up for re-election) can not put aside politics to solve the problems.

So my guess, is a lot less travel. We already booked and paid, but I agree with some of the prior posts in that perhaps shorter lead times might still enable many Americans to visit Africa. Depending on what happens with the airline consolidations globally. Italia Air was one of those recently. Five dollars or pounds for a pillow and blanket is not good.

just my view.

Not cancelling any plans here but I never book travel on credit. I book a trip only once I know we have sufficient funds in our account to pay it off at the time of booking (even if we don't actually need to pay the balance until a later date).

I guess, if I was even more cautious, I might think about the wisdom of guarding that money in the bank incase we find work harder to come by (as we are both self-employed that's a realistic possibility) but as we've paid off our house, the worse that can happen is that we have to take on work we wouldn't normally choose for a few months in order to cover bills and groceries.

I had started to plan a Tanzania/Rwanda safari to be followed by 2 months in Africa next January, but put the whole thing on hold in early August (due to uncertain financial markets). The operator I was dealing with in Arusha said that North American bookings had dropped substantially due to the financial markets and uncertainty. If that was the situation in August, then it can't be getting better.

Kavey - how are plans coming along for Antarctica ... if I recall correctly, you're going back this year???

scootr29 started an interesting thread. Please try and not hijack it. If you are interested in another forum members travel plans to a destination other than an African safari lodge or camp, it would be appropriate to ask that question in the Lounge. No offense but forum etiquette is often ignored on the forum and given the terrible state of the Fodor search engine, it is hopeless to sort through unrelated posts. Again, no offense...
Ted

I think the effects will show in future bookings, say 6 - 12 months out. People going right now have typically already paid for most or all of the trip several months ago.

Kenya is a different story, they shot themselves in the foot with the election riots. When we were there in January we were the only guests at one lodge and the first guests in 11 days at Kichwa Tembo, and the lodge at Nakuru was 20% full. But Tanzania was bustling.

We just got back from the Mara and both camps we were at were full (Little Governor's and Il Moran), mostly Europeans, a few Americans. The manager of Little Governor's told us that their occupancy had been steadily increasing for some time.

Rwanda was full as well, with mostly Americans. Although the rumor is that the gorilla permit fees are going up to $1000 next year, which might put a damper on occupancy.

Wow, Temba -- had no intention of hijacking the thread !!!!! atrevalynn posted: "To put a different twist on the title Economic Troubles, are any of you altering or nixing travel plans?" I thought it only appropriate to ask the question since we all know from a much earlier thread that Kavey is/was planning Antarctica ... Kavey ... never mind, don't amswer the question.

Author: eenusa
Date: 09/30/2008, 03:27 pm

Kavey ... never mind, don't amswer the question.

Now you you got it.
Ted

I haven't altered or nixed any travel plans (other than my usual flip flopping ;) ). I just booked a non-Africa trip last week for next Feb. I thought about waiting to see if there would be discounting but the lodges I wanted (and IMO there really wasn't anything else comparable) were starting to book up and I thought it not worth the risk to wait for savings that may or may not materialize. Thinking about Africa in late 2009 but I typically don't plan anything more than a year out so it's still a little early for me to do any serious planning. This year I was mainly in Kenya which is impossible to separate from the election.

I thought I was in the clear..I had all my Africa money in my account starting in March...then last Monday, I went to pay...and it turns out it was in the Reserve Fund money market which broke the bank...kind of a rude awakening...my broker is covering even while they can't get the $$ from the reserve fund, so my Africa trip end of Oct is officially paid for and safe...but I have to say, I'm rethinking what I will spend next year. I'm just really glad I booked it while the going were good and didn't put it off!

Oh I do dislike self-imposed forum police.

Threads EVOLVE and Lynn's broader question of whether any posters here have altered travel plans because of the economic situation is relevant to the original post.

I see no problem with widening the discussion to other destinations, provided the core of the discussion remains about impact of economics on travel to Africa.

So, I'll go ahead and respond thanks, Ted and make up my own decisions about whether this constitutes a hi-jack to the thread.

Eenusa, we are heading to Antarctica in a few weeks time and can't wait. Our main issue with the finances for this trip has been down to the increase in oil prices rather than the overal economic prices. We were hit with a fuel surcharge of £525 (GBP) EACH! Ouch! We decided to pay up and go ahead with the trip but it was a lot of extra money to suddenly have to find.

And that leads me back to Africa travel, as I am sure prices for safaris are also being impacted by fuel surcharges for internal flights and for road trips too, perhaps.

I was having a conversation with a London cabbie last night, as you do, and we both agreed that, in all honesty, Joe Public in the UK hasn't really felt the impact of the so called Credit Crunch yet. With the exception of those directly working in banks/ associated businesses that have been laid off/ are in danger of losing jobs the rest of us working in different industries aren't really seeing job losses. Which means we have same money coming in so surely not that big an impact. Food, grocery and general shopping prices have gone up this year but not enough that I can see them genuinely impacting on the budget available for travel for many people.

To me, right now, it seems more about a failure in confidence, egged on by media exaggeration than Joe Public's finances really being hit harder this year and therefore not being able to afford holidays.

But at the end of the day, hard to really pin down reasons for lower tourist volumes when there are so many potential factors.

Author: Kavey ([email protected])
Date: 10/01/2008, 05:21 am
Oh I do dislike self-imposed forum police.





So, I'll go ahead and respond thanks, Ted and make up my own decisions about whether this constitutes a hi-jack to the thread.

I was having a conversation with a London cabbie last night, as you do, and we both agreed that, in all honesty, Joe Public in the UK hasn't really felt the impact of the so called Credit Crunch yet.

Thanks Kavey for all of your incredible insights (the cabbie is just super) and your marvelous sense of forum etiquette. Any thoughts on the British Pound dropping 16% against the US dollar. Perhaps what seasickness remedy you will use on your upcoming trip to Antartica, or what clothing you will be taking?
:-( :-(

The OP asks "Have any of you who frequent Africa seen a reduction in American/European tourists? Have the camps been empty?" What about that is too difficult for you to understand??
Ted

Kavey - thanks and have a wonderful time ... as I will with my own travel plans (non-Africa, I'm afraid). Like you and many others, I only book once I know I have the cash I need to pay for the trip, so no impact from the current economic troubles at this point. Of course, the current troubles may mean a further delay for our return to Africa ... but, we'll eventually get back there.

Ted, I understand forum etiquette just fine thanks, having been posting and interacting with other posters here on Fodors since 1998/99.

Whilst I'd agree that one doesn't want to hijack threads willy-nilly it's also accepted that threads will deviate from original topics. Where this is on related tangents, most people in most forums are usually pretty reasonable about it.

It's kind of how open conversation works.

I mentioned in my post above that "threads evolve" and that I saw no problem with "widening the discussion to other destinations, provided the core of the discussion remains about impact of economics on travel" so clearly I wasn't responding directly to the question about empty camps. What about that is too difficult for you to understand??

Unless you've been appointed a secret moderator or board admin, why don't you get off your high horse? Read or don't read, as you prefer but please don't try and tell me what and where to post. It won't serve any purpose since your inability to make your point in a polite manner serves only to get backs up.

I suspect, had you tried to use a little common courtesy and word your request more politely, I might have made more effort.

Actually, to be fair, it wasn't your original post that I found rude but your response to eenusa that was so patronising.

Just can't get a grip can you? :-)

Furthermore in my original response I said "no offense" twice. How polite was that? :-) (note my smiley face) I'm finished with this thread, as interesting as it started out to be. You two should exchange email addresses so that you can continue your facinating discussion.
Ted

Ouch Kavey, that is a huge fuel surcharge to get hit with, I'm sorry for you.

That occurence is very relevant to how market forces may impact safari travelers. I have had a $15 per flight leg passed on by Sanctuary Lodges in Botswana for an existing booking. It's virtually always in the terms that such costs can be passed on to clients but because it angers people I think most operations try hard to avoid it but if energy costs continue to soar or occupancy rates lower due to the economy I would expect it to become more common to pass such rising costs onto customers who are already booked.

Lovejl, I hope your $ sitution works out. Yikes.

Mea Culpa! I had to go and put a twist on the quesiton and open it up to tangents.

Kavey, Was the option to cancel the Antarctica trip wo/penalty offered instead of the surcharge? Just wondering about general surcharge protocol. I doubt the $15 added to Predator's flights would come with an opt out.

Now I'll really do a 180 on this thread. So Kavey, have you created any more animal sculptures out of pizza dough?

But wait, I'm reining it back in...Or have you been curtailing your restaurant dining due to <b>Economic Troubles?</b>

No harm done because I'm putting in smileys :) ;) :D :D that make it all ok.

Patty, how dare you book a non-Africa trip!!!

In the words of aby, I'll be &quot;cheating on old Africa&quot; again ((6))

This thread and the vagaries thereof have put a smile on my face in what is a very trying day, so thanks. I don't know how to use smiley faces but I hope it is ok to post this off topic remark.

Speaking of off-topic, has anyone else heard about increasing gorilla fees to 1k per trek?

To return to topic, I had/have promised myself that I would not return to &quot;old Africa&quot; until I had all my pennies and vacation days accumulated for 2 gorilla treks + at least six days' regular safari. Not sure when that will happen. Cheating in the meantime.

Oprah earns enough money in a half hour to buy a new car.

Yes, I'm working on my pictures and trip report.

I almost feel unclean reading this thread in Japan at a hot springs resort (where it is a magnificent autumn midday, with leaves starting to turn bright red).

However, I agree with Bill_H and others who suggest that the impact will be mostly felt by those people who are just in the planning stages now, for trips in 2009 and beyond.

We weren't offered the option of cancelling and getting a refund because of the rules here that mean that if a fuel surcharge is less than 10% of the original holiday price, the operator does not have to give cancellation rights to the customer. Oddly enough, they wrote saying that the actual increased costs were $96 per person per day but that they were only levying a surcharge that amounted to $50 per person per day. That cleverly keeps the total just beneath that 10% margin.

That said, had I wanted to cancel, I suspect the company I booked with would have done their best to see what they could do given the size of the surcharge.

I did indeed make more pizza animals last week (as part of my bday meal at that same restaurant) and did a lovely ostrich. Sadly it's feet fell off when they attached it to the wall so it looks a bit odd now, to say the least. Then again, the dough eles feet have fallen off too so it's in good company!

As for curtailing general spending because of the economic situation, to be honest, we've not been spending any differently to normal as, right now, we're both bringing in slightly more than we did last year, which offsets the increased prices on food and fuel for the moment. IF things get worse, I'd certainly rather curtail my normal spending at home (on restaurants or other non-essential shopping) rather than curtail my travelling!

Twaffle,
Here's a link for smileys and so much more--shamrocks, beer mugs, hearts, devil faces. It could become a part time job creating all of this smiley art.
http://www.fodors.com/forums/smileys/

Patty,
I hope the permits don't increase to $1000 because with 4 of them that's a lot more money--$2000 to be exact. I have already bought them for $500. Last time I bought the permits almost 2 years in advance and I did have to pay the increase from $250 to $400 at that time.

With the world economic slump, PNV officials may think twice about an increase of that magnitude.

If you decide to go, maybe I'll see you on the mountain in August??

In the meantime happy cheating.

Kavey,
What a timely question I posed. An ostrich this time! And belated Happy Birthday. Might you be a Libra?

I don't think I am capable of segueing from feetless dough animals back to our topic of economic troubles. But I'll try. How about, &quot;I'd rather have economic troubles than no feet.&quot;

But then, I'd rather have unclean feet like Rizzuto's than economic troubles.

With another 300+ drop in the DOW and financial (not to mention all the other kinds of) turmoil world wide, what else can we do but spew silliness?

Lynn - thanks for the smilies link I'll start practicing =D&gt;

My biggest concern here in Australia is our dollar, just on 2 1/2 months ago it reached 98c to the US$. It's currently now 78c!
Fortunately we have booked and payed over half our 19 night Sept'09 Botswana trip earlier, when our $ was stronger.
And to think that it's NOT our economy that's in trouble!! Our banks and financial institutions are all very sound, probably the best in the world atm.
........US sneezes, we catch the cold. :-\

Cheers
Marc

&quot;US sneezes, we catch the cold&quot;

Probably more like multinational companies that try to avoid paying taxes and CEO's of those subprime lenders (see it spreading to Europe, we do).

I don't think I would blame it on any country now, like mine, as multi national companies are making traveling to other countries like Africa, more difficult, mosty because of their greed.

See the buy out /bail/out proposal and the &quot;pork barrel&quot;? That is a term for the loading the dice, or sell your votes, so to speak ( they add on free stuff for their respective states) We see it here in North America and perhaps you do too.

But that is Not going to take away our wish, and fortunately, ability to visit the Africa. Experiencing different cultures is what Life is all about.

just my view