Agreed, Napamatt...anyone reading that thread now would get a different picture than those of us who saw it before it was censored...

Moira

Jim

I'm the one who is the originator of the post "Anyone heard from Rocco".
It was NEVER my intention to turn it into a witch hunt. Yes, I am concerned about my deposit, however, I posted this question just to see who perhaps had the most recent conversations with Rocco and to follow it up from there.
I agree with AndyBiggs, that technology has not caught up here at Fodors. It is crying out to be allowed Signatures AND the ability to Private Message.
As I have stated before, I hope that some issues (which are best NOT discussed openly here) can be resolved which will lead to a positive outcome.
I would like to thank a lot of people here and via hotmail for all there help and advice.
Cheers
Marc

I, frankly, am horrified that Fodor's left the post where Rocco implied he didn't even know some of the people posting but deleted the post where Rocco admitted that two of the posters (the ones with serious comments, not flames) were his clients and that he screwed up. That post should be reinstated and I think all of us should write the editors regarding such. Otherwise, anybody reading that thread in the future will think that Marc and Debbie were not legitimate.

Yes, we are legitimate as you will see my past post's here and on the Europe board. As before, I think those of us involved are just trying to stay low key to get this resolved. I just want our trip to run smoothly and not be paying more than originally intended.

Which is not to say I haven't gotten a kick out of some of the banter.

Not deleted yet...
Just got up, Sunny and 10 degrees in Maun.
This is better than the local bar at 10pm.
But have to agree people should be more carefull booking with homebased TA.
I hope all goes well Debbie.

To me the best source of information, are the people on the ground, whom I can contact directly.

I seldom read something very valuable on safari boards (which I could use) and would strongly advice not to book your trip only on basis from what you read on those forums. Mostly I have a look at these boards just out of curiosity what other people have seen on their safaris.

Johan

But reading a bunch of posts about a bad experience with a TA, followed by an acknowledgement from said TA, would make you think twice. That's why I think the editors went too far.

Deb, I know you're legit, that's why I'm annoyed.

Points taken. And thanks, Matt, for not flaming me. I do hope that Marc and dwc's trips go as well as ours did.

But I almost entirely disagree with Johan about not finding anything useful on this board. Perhaps valid for him, an experienced safari-goer, but for many of us who have just joined the ranks, we (okay, I) didn't even know many of the questions to ask before finding Fodors.

Will I be given vouchers for all camps as well as inter-camp flights? How will visas be taken care of? Can my duffel have wheels (Geez, they're still posting about wheels on another thread)?

How many vehicles typically at sightings? How many camps will fess up that you might have half a dozen vans from different camps clustered around a cheetah?

Some camps fenced in? For some, that might be a comfort. Not for me. Night drives? What type of vehicle? How many rows/how many across?

What this board has done is given me the basis for asking the right questions. I also think there is a great deal of value in the different opinions sometimes expressed about a given camp. Again, things one might not get from the camp itself, but, yes, the differences might be based on the personalities of the posters, time of year, guide, etc, but often nuances that help one reach conclusions about whether to visit a place.

One of the characteristics I liked about Rocco is that he had no concern about, and even encouraged, my contacting the camps directly to get verification of certain points. Some may think it's rather, excuse the term, anal, of me, and for those who are happy to go with the TA's answer, great.

Interestingly, all camps responded to my queries except the one we had problems with--Sausage Tree (and to go there was my idea, not Rocco's).

jim

I suggest we start the fact finding again.
Issues: are there any clients of
Destiny Africa who have been unable to contact the operator re confirming their reservations?
Are there any clients out there who have gotten stiffed? (to use the vernacular).

I believe this board is the perfectly appropriate place for travelers to alert other travelers about problems with tour operators.

Kevin from California

P.S. I have loved Rocco's posts from the past, met him at the L.A. GTG last Fall at his home, found him quite charming, and find his disappearance and allegations of impropriety quite bewildering.

link to the old thread:

http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=35003628

I was SURE that this thread would have been pulled while I was sleeping and I had to check first thing - guessthe're letting it stay - at least for now.

I agree with bots, this is much better than any soap and now before I get flamed, I know it's a serious issue and I'm not making light of it - if it were me who booked with Rocco I would be climbing the walls and not the least bit happy.

And just to add my 2c - I think that agents SHOULD be allowed to post. When I was looking for an agent last year I just trawled through the internet and e-mailed some. This was prior or just when I found Fodors. I had actually e-mailed African Serendipity and had quite a few e-mails to and fro before I even realised Sandi was the same Sandi that posts here. She patiently answered my questions here without mentioning or promoting her company. Now in the end I booked the entire trip independently which brings me to my next point - I would NOT have been able to do that without the help of Fodors. There is no way I would have been able to find out the things I did without this forum and those who post here - eg, when I got no answer from Serena and had e-mailed them 3 times I posted here and someone gave me a 'personal' e-mail contact for Serena - it worked! And who can forget the endliess 'cheetah petting' discussions, I would never have known about that, there are MANY more examples of things not easily found just by Googleing so yes, this forum has been an AMAZING help!

I really hope that you Marc and Debbie get things sorted with Rocco but I do believe that everyone shouldn't be tarred with the same brush because one person has messed up.

Anyways, just my 2c!

Imelda

I agree, Imelda...I've learned a lot from reading these boards. The countries where we want to go, Botswana and Zambia, don't have a lot of guidebooks written on them so it's hard to get information. I have the Bradt guides but I wouldn't even have them if they hadn't been recommended here...I had to special order them from Borders.

I also agree with Momliz...it's not fair to lump Julian and Sandi and Eben (Climbhighsleeplow) and James in with Rocco. No one has complained about them (in fact people have said very positive things about them), and it was Eben who pointed out that Rocco's claim that it was normal to hold onto the deposit was incorrect.

Moira

While I sincerely appreciate the kind words, I have a serious problem with one issue.

Every time Rocco does/say something controversial or worse (and it is happening far to often IMO), this travel agent issue raises it's head and I am thrown into the ring to take my share of knocks.

Please allow me to explain that I am not a travel agent! I own several 100K's worth of safari vehicles and equipment. We have physical offices and a warehouse. We are a team of 40+ guides, cooks, administrators and support crew and I pay all salaries directly. We are the people on the ground delivering the goods. A "safari outfitter" if you will.

The travel agent in question here owns nothing on the ground, works from home and has been in business for less than a year. This person desperately needs this board to stay in business.

There is no comparison between us and no need to paint us all with the same wide brush.

I've sensed for a while now that being a part of the Fodors community is enriching but also frustrating and even bad for one's reputation. I am too serious about my business to be subjected to all of this.
Eben

Eben, I think that's obvious, and I hope that you and any other Africa professionals of whatever type do not stop posting here, unless anyone uses the forum for self promotion. But, when one does they get flamed so badly that it seems counter-productive to me.

As I see it, Fodor's will mostly delete the threads that they receive complaints about - they're not trolling looking for our misdeeds. Rocco, due to his contriversial nature, seems to get hit because of this this.

Look, if the editors get a complaint, they don't have time or possibly any inclination to sift thru all these threads to decide what belongs. Not fair by any means, but honestly this arena is by far the least vicious and most informative when compared to some of the other boards.

I do like Andy B's rec. that we all should have a signature so that we know who's rec. what. A few dive boards that I use have this and it's a great help.

Hi Eben! I'm sorry if I was wrong...from your website I got the impression that you were an agent booking people into other camps as well as having your own mobile safaris. Maybe it's just a matter of semantics and we meant different things by "agent". Anyhow, no offense was intended! I really appreciate your posts!

Moira

I think James was totally correct on his post below from last year.

Eben, this is nothing about you. You do not solicit, nor depend upon these forums.

Author: jweis
Date: 10/21/2006, 10:27 pm
For those who would like to know why Rocco was removed from the forum, while the rest of the TA's on this forum were not, let me suggest a formula that might make it clear:

Agents on the Forum, excluding Rocco and Julian:
NO FODOR'S = Still have a viable business.

Rocco/Julian:
NO FODOR'S = No business (or very nearly).

Bring on the attacks if you must, but this formula, if not precise, is pretty much correct.

Maybe no one thinks he or Julian overtly solicited business, but Fodor's recent decision proves that they also subscribe to this formula.

Plain and simple, Fodor's is NOT meant to be an avenue upon which agents may build a business.

Now, let's all get back to sharing information and hopefully, when Rocco and Julian are back, they will stop with the proposed itineraries and simply follow the rules.

James

I recall plenty of posts from Rocco where he deliberately liberally inserted very cheeky references to his business into his posts (calling it "the business which cannot be named" really isn't on, in my opinion).

I have never, once, seen Julian do the same and, especially now that he has left the business he shared with Rocco and started his own (which he has not touted on this board), I think it's high time for him to stop being tarred with the same brush.

The quote above from James refers to a time when the two of them were both in business together and it may then have been fair to lump them in together but this is no longer the case.

Let me make it clear that I have no problem with agents or operators or outfitters participating here - infact I positively welcome the sheer depth and breadth of knowledge they bring and share. With the exception of Rocco (and, occasionally, Mark from Taga) I have never seen any of them tout for customers here.

I would like to see Fodors allow signatures and even create an icon to differentiate users (travellers, journalists and operators/ agents are three categories that spring to mind). But I can't see it coming.

This forum is not a money-making venture for Random and so it's unlikely they will invest more than the minimum in it.

Moira

You don't have to apologize at all!

The safari industry is very small one where most players know each other (in a region anyway) and there are lots of competition and cooperation all at the same time! A bit confusing to outsiders but the system works rather well.

Outfitters on the ground book clients at camps/lodges belonging to competitors on a regular basis. One outfitter simply cannot have camps/lodges in all locations at all times! You may find Serena booking clients at Sopa in Tarangire for example! And Nomad may book CCAfrica in Lake Manyara. And CCA will book Nomad in Mahale!

We are no different! The inter-outfitter working relationships are very good in the majority of instances - a win-win for both consumers and suppliers.

Someone mentioned Tripadvisor..
Does this mean that now they will move on to that forum and do the same as it is a bit to hot here?