spassvogel
I know this is off topic, but I have wondered if catnip works on the big cats too! I was half tempted to bring some with me on my last trip but I decided I didn't want to find out the hard way!

Hi Phernska,

In light of your experience with planning this particular trip - what would be your suggestions to people planning their safaris of a lifetime

a.) First time safari goers
b.) Repeat safari goers

I don't think this situation is limited to Tanzania alone.

The internet is such a good place to learn and research, and I'm glad sites like fodors allow the consumer to voice their opinion. It is afterall a place for us the CONSUMER.

I ask these questions, as I think you could be helpful to many people around the world.

Regards,
Hari

Hari,

I think repeat safari goers have a much better chance at not getting ripped off as we have a much better idea about where we want to go, where we want to stay, etc. etc. In my case, the companies I contacted had nothing more to do than price out my itinerary. So, to answer your question, repeat safari goers should do their own research, contact 4 or 5 companies and go for price.
First time safari goers will get hustled, no doubt about it. They are looking for advice and recommendations and the companies have to do much more consulting. When this is the case, you develop more of a 'relationship' with the person and, therefore, feel more obligated to use that company because they are putting time and effort into the planning. But, first timers should contact at least 3 companies before committing, and let each company know. Safaris are expensive and, like any investment, you have to shop around.
As you said, sites like Fodors are an excellent source of information. When my Africa addiction started in 2001 and I discovered this forum, I read everything, posted questions, and became more savvy as a result.
In general, for people planning their first safari, I would recommend that they contact companies that specialize in Africa as opposed to those travel companies that go everywhere. That's a good place to start and can be narrowed down from there.

Im negotiating a Safari for 4, and have not seen the huge PERCENTAGE price differences but similar net dollar differences for the same itinerary. I will guess that some operators have a flat fee per Safari(vs just a %) they book making a solo experience resulting in a higher variation in quotes. I also belive some operators dont receive the 'discount' rate at the lodges.

Not all operators get discounts; not all operators get the same discounts.

Some operators deal only on US dollars, some in Euros, some in pounds. These currencies vary against each other all the time.

All this can vary the quotes by considerable amounts.

The problem with going solely on price, is that you may eliminate the company that offers 'value'. The cheapest may not always be (rarely is,in my experience), the best.

However, if that is your main criterion, then that's your decision.

Thanks, Phernska. Well said......

mcwomble,

I'm not sure I completely understand your comment. What do you mean by 'value' when comparing apples to apples?

Some operators may charge the same price, eg in your case TO and EA, but one or both may able to add more to your trip that is hard to price, eg knowledge,expertise, customer care, etc.

If these 'added-value' items are worthless to you, which may be the case if you are experienced and knowledgable and know what to do if there are problems on the trip, then I can see the logic of choosing merely on price.

But I would suggest that most people do not have the vast knowledge and expertise that the operators should have. They (operators) have built that up over years, and clients tap into it, and gain value from using that company, compared to using one that merely matches on prices but cannot offer good advice on which camp to choose, say.

So, in answer to FrankS, I was suggesting not only comparing price, but what else the operator can bring to your trip.

I agree, it won;t be worth $3,000, but it may make the difference between a memorable or a mediocre trip.

Of course, it may be that those 2 expensive companies just are inefficient, but it might have been interesting to hear from them what you would get for the extra $3000. But, if quotes are roughly similar in price, you then need a way of differentiating them.

I'm suggesting that one way is to work out which one adds the most 'value' to your trip. It will be a personal decision.

mcwomble,

Thanks for the explanation. In thinking about my brief experience with Travel Beyond and your comment that it would be interesting to hear what I would get for the extra $4935...I'm convinced they are rip-offs, and here's why:

I contacted Travel Beyond through their website by filling out one of those short email questionnaires. As I said, I was specific about parks, lodges, and time of year. An agent responded with a long email and also asked if I'd thought about including a gorilla trek in Rwanda. I was instantly annoyed with this hustle and decided I would not respond and would not pursue my original request. However, the agent called me at work! I immediately told her I didn't appreciate her hustling me about Rwanda. She was taken aback and sputtered out some lame response about it not being a sales pitch, blah blah blah. Then I said, "It would cost me more wouuldn't it?" She acknowledged that it would, the discussion ended and we moved on. We started to talk about Ruaha and I mentioned that I had considered Kwihala because it's small, but Mwagusi seems to have the best reputation for wildlife, hence my decision to stay there. The agent said she hasn't been to Ruaha and was not familiar with either camp, but suggested Jongomero--yet another attempt to hustle me! As far as I know, Jongomero is the most expensive camp in Ruaha and is known for its luxury not its wildlife. So, at that point, I knew I would never book a safari with Travel Beyond. The agent admitted she had never been to Ruaha, Katavi or Mahale and mentioned that her favorite place in Africa is Malawi. Oy vey.

The agent at Tanzania Odyssey, on the other hand, was extremely knowledgeable about Ruaha and Mwagusi and I liked him very much and appreciated his expertise. He obviously knew what he was talking about. But, as far as 'value' goes, it' not worth $1600, the cost of a roundtrip ticket from San Francisco to Dar.

Phernska: The Travel Beyond agent certainly knew nothing about Ruaha. <i>("The agent....suggested Jongomero--yet another attempt to hustle me! As far as I know, Jongomero is the most expensive camp in Ruaha and is known for its luxury not its wildlife.")</i> For one thing, Jongomero and Mwagusi are in completely different eco-systems. They are by no means comparing apples to apples. You might be surprised to learn that Jongomero was <u>LESS</u> expensive than Mwagusi when we made our trip in January 2010. In fact, Mwagusi was <u>THE MOST EXPENSIVE</u> camp we used -- even more than Sand Rivers in Selous. Jongomero was the <u>LEAST</u> expensive of our four camps.

I wouldn't say the Travel Odyssey guy was very knowledgable either, since his quote was either a hustle or completely inaccurate and as for his comment about the leopards at Mwagusi....well. I'm pretty sure he's the same guy who gave me a big sell on Mwagusi and said how much we would love Chris Fox as our guide. Turns out that Chris Fox hasn't spent any time at Mwagusi for nearly five years! He's building a home elsewhere. So even those who SEEM knowledgeable -- aren't always.

mcwombie,
I agree with you that some operators bring value, even with the same quoted itinerary. That 'value' might be just repore or peace of mind. My posted observation meant I feel more flexibility in choosing with a group of 4. The difference between my quotes received is less than 10%, and the ones I like just about 5% as I didnt feel any repore with the low bid company.

Lillipets

YESSSSS - catnip works with leopards! As I said. A friend of mine took it to her favourite leopard at the NBO orphanage and he freaked out :-)

I would certainly not try that on a game drive ;-)

((@))

TC,

Thanks for the info about Jongomero, I assumed it was more expensive because it is smaller and more luxurious. But, I don't think we're talking about the same TO guy, as the one I originally spoke with back in January is no longer with them. The guy I dealt with most recently sounds like the same one you worked with, though. I took his comments with a grain of salt (including the leopard remark) as I'd already made my decision about Mwagusi based on my January discussions with the other agent.

I never thought I would go to Africa ever (looking at the US based company $$$$$ price tags), now I look back, and laugh... :D

Glad you figured it out too, phernska.

I was getting quotes in February from different companies, including two that you got quotes from, for almost the exact same itinerary you were quoted on. Expert Africa had the lowest quote and ATR the highest. I did feel a little pressured when I was told that Nomads had a special on and a deposit had to be received by end of March in order to get the special price. It seems that Nomads still has that special on. I have since put this trip on hold.

Phernska, thanks for breaking this down. Interesting information and good to know. I hope you'll write a report about your trip!

Wow - I was trolling the Tanzania forum for the first time and look what I found. Actually, I was directed to look here...

Busted huh? No, just kidding. Since I am the owner of Tarvel Beyond I must admit something smells fishy here and something looks pretty bad (with regard to the rates quoted).

I must admit after the last 12 months of friendly (?) debate and dicussions on this forum I was laughing out loud as I thought of Skimmer2 and HariS reading this. You guys got one on me! Good stuff indeed. This does look funny and bad (for Travel Beyond) all at the same time.

Phernska - I see you contacted us on the 13th of this month. I sent you an email a few moments ago seeking a bit more information. Hope you don't mind.

Craig Beal - owner - Travel Beyond

Interestingly enough, the company I didn't go with, even though their quote was significantly cheaper, on our 2004 trip, was Sunvil, now known as Expert Africa. The company as a whole has tremendous experience and expertise but we found a huge difference depending on which consultant we were assigned. The second time, responses were tardy and FULL of mistakes, sloppy sloppy sloppy.

It's not all about price, for sure.

Kavey, One thing to consider with any travel consultant exchange is whether or not the agent is an "inside" or "outside" agent. Meaning do they work within an office governed by standard business practices or are they a free agent, usually working from a home office, and simply using the name of the company. Many travel companies do this as a way of getting more business. They only pay the outside agent a percentage on any account that they bring in to the agency. There is no overhead for their work. So you could get someone who is quite knowledgeable or someone who isn't. Often there is no one overseeing this work. While one encounter may be wonderful, another could be a dud. The on-line inquirey forms are often passed out for follow-up in random order.

You are so right....its not all about price.

TC -

One learns something new every day on Fodor's. Never heard the terms "inside/outside" agents.

If that's the case, even a company as Micato has "outside" agents as I learned on a visit to their NYC office some years back. There were only 2 agents present (and it was not lunch hour) when I was there, only to learn that some of their former employees, i.e., "stay-at-home-moms" or those who have moved out of the NYC area, handle inquiries.

Now I know what they're called. Thanks.

TC,

How relevant is it for safari-goers to ask in their emails about agents who work "outside" or "inside". Isn't it, that end of the day one seeks information and knowledge that is required to make the desired plan for a trip? End of the day, it's upto the agency to have knowledgeable staff who are capable of providing information to people to make their luxury holidays.... eventually, the good agents are easily distinguished from the rest ........ their knowledgeable information to clients, reputable word of mouth, good quality websites with relevant information (quality info) etc etc.,?

Yesterday I had a lengthy discussion with Craig Beal, who owns Travel Beyond. I'm glad we spoke as opposed to emailing as we were able to have a dialogue. Craig was sincerely baffled by the humongous difference in his quote and Fish Eagle's and, eventually, was able to figure out the discrepancies. He did not attempt to win back my business and, in fact, was very complimentary about Fish Eagle Safaris.
After our conversation, I felt better and concluded that Travel Beyond was not trying to rip me off. And, I think Craig understands that I was not being malicious when I decided to post my experience.

<i>was able to figure out the discrepancies</i>

Phernska, So what were they? All who have been following this exchange would like to know so we can be more knowledgeable the next time.

Hari, I would always ask, since it makes a great deal of difference in the kind of knowledge an agent might have. I want to know if the knowledge was acquired first or second hand. I want to know if the agenency's reputation extends to the consultant that I am working with. I don't believe the "good agents" are easily distinguished from the rest. If this is the first encounter with planning a trip to Africa (or anywhere) and the client is inexperienced, it is quite easy for a consultant to bluff their way through and "sound" quite smart. Personally, I could <u>read</u> enough about Timbuktu to bluff my way through selling a trip to an inexperienced first time traveler. That would in no way make me an expert, but how would the first time traveler know that? If I am working under the umbrella banner of a big time agency, one that markets itself as a specialist for Timbuktu, a lot of assumptions are easily made to the benefit of the consultant, not the client. Just go back and read the inaccurate information that has been passed on by consultants mentioned in this posting alone.

With internet technology, I would think there'd be more outside employees. Innies, outies, it's sounding like belly buttons now.

Phernska, thanks for posting your followup, which offers perspective and insight. When you settle on an itinerary, please let us know. Southern Tanzania is becoming a sought after destination.

TC,

The discrepancies seemed to be two-fold. Travel Beyond quoted the internal flights as if I were the only passenger (which is highly unlikely), which amounted to about 1/3 of the price difference. And, they were remiss in not checking the specials offered at each property.

atravelynn,

I have settled on an itinerary--4 nights at Mwagusi in Ruaha, 3 nights at Chada in Katavi, and 4 nights at Greystoke in Mahale. I will be going in September 2011.

I am off to Zimbabwe in October.

When I safari solo I expect to pay -charter- flight prices for two. And every time (maybe 4 times) I have been the only passenger pickup at the camp airstrip.

Not knowing special offers at camps is a lazy TA. Not looking out for me, not good,

regards - tom

tom - are you serious? You expect paying 2 seat when flying single?

I know only WS does this. AndBeyond wouldn't charge 2 seats. Mack Air also wouldn't.

I am puzzled..........

((@))

SV - yes serious. In South Africa on safari camp transfers between Timbavati and Sabi Sand camps, and to Nelspruit, I have been only passenger on charter flights. Charters were by Chilipepper Charters and General Airways Charters. Cost of flights were $250-$300 two person minimum. If only one pax, same price. These flights were not like WS or &Beyond transfering 6 guests to their next WS or &Beyond camp. Just me, at the little camp airstrip waiting for the sputtering little four seat Cessna to land :) .

I don't like paying for two, but anyway what is another $150 on a $7,000 safari? So doesn't bug me too much. If you know of better way/price, let me know please.

regards - tom

THX tom!

My point is Wilderness charging on their SEFOFANE planes 2 seats for a single traveller - doesn't matter whether the plane is full at the day of travel.
It's NOT a charter as such!

A charter is without question reasoned to charge that amount.

And yes - Safari costs a lot of money but humans tend to be really counting pennies when it comes to the add-ons ;-)

THX for the info!

((@))

Often when I'm traveling East Africa there have been times when I've been the only pax... ugh! Especially when visiting in "low" season. And, certain routes even in high-season, have a minimum 2/pax requirement, i.e., Lake Naivasha/Masai Mara.

Why I often leave the flights to a few weeks prior travel to see whether I'll have a private plane and cost for the 2nd pax, or others will join. In some cases, the alternative is a road transfer, but there's a cost associated with this. I simply weight the benefits... $$$ or time!

On recent visit, staying at SaSaab on Western Conservancy at Samburu, was scheduled for flight out of Samburu proper as 1/pax which was fine, but it's rare not to have other paxs on this route. This, despite, the very very early and long drive into Samburu. The night prior the manager offered a pop-over flight with a private pilot who was scheduled to fly other guests farther north... whoopie; he'd pick me up, pop over to Samburu (10/min), then return for his paxs. But next morning, a surprise... the Samburu pilot agreed to fly into their private airstrip just for moi, and I was an even happier camper all the way back to Wilson w/ stop at Nanyuki.

I just go with the flow and while that 2/pax minimum is a PIA (rarely been more than $200), it's sure better than walking :)

TC,

Thanks for your clarification. Valid points, indeed!!!

It's nice to see people back to being concerned about price. Personally I think the 2/pax minimum on flights to places that can be driven to is quite a good deal, but for places that rely solely on guests arriving via air and are already charging a lot of money, I've always thought it was a bit cheeky.

Phernska... this was a good one - thanks for bringing it up and following it through.

Can I ask why you only asked for quoted from US and UK based companies? There are so many excellent TZ based companies, and the US/UK companies usually contract out to them anyway. If you're aware of the forums, I would think you could have found recommendations for reputable TZ based companies, and they probably would have been cheaper (and maybe better) than the US/UK companies.

It's a good question, DivingPrincessE. There are reasons I think, but the idea of putting all the money you are spending into the country you are visiting always appeals greatly to me.

kimburu

It's a good intention but most of those TZ/KEN/SA/ZAM/BOT based DMC's have their accounts safe in UK, US, Switzerland ;-)

((@))

Looks like I have been the man of the hour! :-)

My post above (way above) was posted with places like Tanzania in mind. The Serengeti is mostly filled with private camps, rather than just a few lodges, and that is what I had in mind when posting. Too bad that somebody royally flipped out and postal about it. Probably speaks more about that person than anything else.

DivingPrincessE,

It was hard enough for me to start using a London-based company! And, if I try to explain why, it sounds ridiculous. But, we all have our little neuroses, don't we?
Wiring money makes me anxious, not being able to talk to someone makes me uneasy, etc. etc. I'm kind of 'old school' in that way. It makes no logical sense....

Phernska, I found that many of the small local companies either have no means or do not want to communicate directly with clients. If contacted, they will point one toward a booking agent. They may not want to (or again, may not have the means) to contend with International money collections or language may be an uncomfortable barrier. These issues may go more smoothly for them if left to a more worldly entity. There is a complicated banking network associated with the transfer and receipt of International money -- one better absorbed by a larger company. I don't think you need apologize. It's perfectly logical.

TC -

One doesn't have to be a large company to send or receive funds by EFT (electronic funds transfer, better known as wire transfers). As an individual or company you just go into any bank with your cash/check (or if you already have an account with said financial institution) and have them wire said funds to someone (individual or business) direct into their account. And, vice versa, if one has a bank account they can receive funds wired from elsewhere. Nothing special in doing this. As long as the correct information is provided the sender: Name of receiving company, the bank name, address, account number and Swift Code... a click of the "send" button and joila, it's done. Funds generally on the other end within 24/hrs if not sooner.

Sandi, Sadly banking isn't the same in all countries. Read the following excerpt from the news release of a bank in Dar. Maybe some businesses prefer to have their funds held in a UK bank account.

<i>“_____Bank Tanzania is passionate about decreasing the bureaucracy involved in opening a bank account and equally fervent and determined to outlaw bribes and facilitation that has been practice elsewhere”, said David James, CEO of the _____ Bank Tanzania, at recent press conference at the new Head office of the Bank in Kijitonyama, Dar es Salaam.

His message to all customers is - “Please do not offer our Staff even a cup of tea or soda when they visit your business premises to assess your loan request. I want all our customers to know and appreciate that our Staff will politely turn down all offers just to show how determined _____Bank is in fighting corruption.”

"When it comes to opening current and savings accounts, the Bank is proud to boast that we reduce bureaucracy and reduce the pile of paper that you need to open a bank account......."</i>