Why don't airlines just seat passengers with kids under age 5 in the back of the plane?
May 25th, 2000, 10:13 AM
#1
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Why don't airlines just seat passengers with kids under age 5 in the back of the plane?
There has been a lot of disagreement on this board about people who travel with kids, particularly on planes. Obviously, those without children don't want to deal with the, um, characteristics of young children and babies. Obviously, those with children have to travel somehow, and they are stuck doing their best on their own to make it through the flight.
So why not just designate the back of the plane for families with young children? That way, airlines could dispense with pre-boarding and parents could board first with their brood and head straight back. When the plane lands, parents could get off last because they move slowly anyway. If the kids were all together, they could amuse each other better, and parents could even share toys to keep the little ones amused. And best of all, I, as the mother of three kids (ages 8, 5, and 2), would no longer suffer the non-stop glares of childless passengers.
In fact, I think airlines could even advertise this policy and give the kid section some kind of nifty name. Childless passengers would love this approach, of course, and I don't see why parents with kids ought to mind being around other parents with kids. The airline would just inquire of anyone booking a reservation of more than one whether there are any children travelling. So the only folks receiving glares would be parents who tried to sneak into the front of the plane.
Am I all wet? Has this been tried? Why not?
Sorry for not using my real name, but posts on this topic get a little too nasty.
So why not just designate the back of the plane for families with young children? That way, airlines could dispense with pre-boarding and parents could board first with their brood and head straight back. When the plane lands, parents could get off last because they move slowly anyway. If the kids were all together, they could amuse each other better, and parents could even share toys to keep the little ones amused. And best of all, I, as the mother of three kids (ages 8, 5, and 2), would no longer suffer the non-stop glares of childless passengers.
In fact, I think airlines could even advertise this policy and give the kid section some kind of nifty name. Childless passengers would love this approach, of course, and I don't see why parents with kids ought to mind being around other parents with kids. The airline would just inquire of anyone booking a reservation of more than one whether there are any children travelling. So the only folks receiving glares would be parents who tried to sneak into the front of the plane.
Am I all wet? Has this been tried? Why not?
Sorry for not using my real name, but posts on this topic get a little too nasty.
May 25th, 2000, 10:20 AM
#2
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No doubt you've started a heated discussion here, but I for one (now with grown children, but did travel a bit with them when they were young) think you might have an interesting idea. No doubt someone will say children are being discriminated against because it's noisier or a rougher ride in the back. So....off we go!
May 25th, 2000, 10:25 AM
#3
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Actually, some airlines have this policy: I once discovered that my seats on an Air France flight had been changed and I was going to be sitting next to the lavatories. The agent on the phone siad he could move me, but I'd be at the back, and that's where they seated families with children.
You know things are bad when people assume you'd rather beat near the toilet and the line therefor rather than near--oh, horrors!--an ankle-biter or two.
You know things are bad when people assume you'd rather beat near the toilet and the line therefor rather than near--oh, horrors!--an ankle-biter or two.
May 25th, 2000, 11:18 AM
#4
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Here's an article you might find interesting:
----------------------------
First-class turbulence in 'third class'
By Christopher Elliott
CNN.com Travel Columnist
April 13, 2000
Web posted at: 7:22 a.m. EDT (1122 GMT)
(CNN) -- Trapped in the last row of economy class, with the two-part soundtrack of an aircraft engine and the galley behind her, Katy Koontz says she'll never forget her recent flight from New York to Athens, Greece.
"There was a long line for the bathroom next to us," she says. "We had no room for our luggage, because the flight attendants had blocked off the overhead bin above us. And they ran out of our choice of meals before they served us."
The reason Koontz, a Knoxville writer, got sent to the back? Maybe it's because she was traveling with Samantha, her 5-year-old daughter, Koontz says. "Let's put it this way," she says. "They've never seated me in the front when I've traveled with her." ... (see http://www.cnn.com/2000/TRAVEL/VIEWS.../12/index.html for the full article)
----------------------------
First-class turbulence in 'third class'
By Christopher Elliott
CNN.com Travel Columnist
April 13, 2000
Web posted at: 7:22 a.m. EDT (1122 GMT)
(CNN) -- Trapped in the last row of economy class, with the two-part soundtrack of an aircraft engine and the galley behind her, Katy Koontz says she'll never forget her recent flight from New York to Athens, Greece.
"There was a long line for the bathroom next to us," she says. "We had no room for our luggage, because the flight attendants had blocked off the overhead bin above us. And they ran out of our choice of meals before they served us."
The reason Koontz, a Knoxville writer, got sent to the back? Maybe it's because she was traveling with Samantha, her 5-year-old daughter, Koontz says. "Let's put it this way," she says. "They've never seated me in the front when I've traveled with her." ... (see http://www.cnn.com/2000/TRAVEL/VIEWS.../12/index.html for the full article)
May 25th, 2000, 01:45 PM
#6
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I thought some airline was going to let adults w/ kids board last vs first because a study showed the plane loads quicker???
Nothing worse than a long flight with a kid kicking the back of your seat while the "adult" refuses to stop them because it may stifle them..What about teaching how to get along in a society?
Please! How did I grow up without all of this gobblydeegook?
Nothing worse than a long flight with a kid kicking the back of your seat while the "adult" refuses to stop them because it may stifle them..What about teaching how to get along in a society?
Please! How did I grow up without all of this gobblydeegook?
May 25th, 2000, 04:02 PM
#8
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If Disney and the Big Red Boat can do it, why not airlines? The parents would be more relaxed, not worrying about the kids being on their best behavior throughout long, cramped flights; the kids would be around other kids and would have fun; and those who do not want to fly with children could enjoy a trip with just adults on board. At least it would be a choice!
May 25th, 2000, 11:19 PM
#11
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I've flown dozens of times in my life and have never, ever seen or heard any drunken passengers. I don't know if I'm just lucky or if other people are really exaggerating. I suspect the latter. Or perhaps it's more common in some areas. Personally, I don't consider someone who is sitting next to me and having a couple of drinks to be drunk. Even if they were, I'd take them over ill-behaved, undisciplined children any time.
May 26th, 2000, 04:07 AM
#12
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Curious - I think you've got a valid point and one that I agree with. I don't have kids and while it isn't a total tragedy to have to deal with little ones on a flight (kicking seats, etc.), to be honest, I prefer not having to. I think having a choice in the matter would make those on both sides of the coin happier. By the way, I'm sure you've started a heated discussion with this post, as all those concerning kids' behavior/parents' disciplining does! ;-) I do think what you have suggested makes perfect sense, though.
May 26th, 2000, 08:04 AM
#13
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There's a very practical reason why they don't seat all the families with small children in back---if they did that I'd have NO ONE to be seated between.
Got back last week from a flight from Detroit to Seattle where I had the wonderful opportunity to sit in the center seat while 2 youngsters--one age 4 and one age 7 sat on the aisle and window. The parents of these creatures were in the row in front of us. When I realized that the kids belong to these "Clampetts" I asked them if they would have the child on the aisle switch with me. They said no, that they thought it would be better to not have the children next to each other since they didn't always get along. So then I said that one of them should switch with me. They said no, these were the seats they wanted and that's why they booked them months ago. I checked and of course the plane was completely full, my 275,000 miles on this airline were useless since first class was booked full long before I booked my travel, etc. etc.
The best part was that once the plane left the gate, these "parents" ignored the kids and slept the flight away while I was forced to deal with the squabbling that went on. The kids had absolutely nothing to entertain themselves beyond the air sick bag. They didn't go more than 3 minutes without screaming at each other. They didn't sit down for a minute and spilled more than they drank when drinks came around. I even had a passenger behind me ask me to control my kid--he gave me a very simpathetic look when I told them they weren't mine.
Finally I woke the father up and said that I needed some help dealing with his kids he just laughed. Murder at 35,000 feet seemed impractical.
The flight attendants were very sympathetic, but even they didn't have any luck with the parents. I got certificates for everything that they had in the cabin, free drinks, more miles, the kitchen sink but I'd have given it all away and more to get away from these 2 rotten kids.
I was not very happy sitting next to these 2, but still wondered what would happen in an emergency. I didn't enjoy the idea that these 2 would become my responsibility in the event of a serious problem.
From a practical standpoint, I don't know that it would be wise to seat all the families with children in the same part of the plane. I've never witnessed an evacuation first hand thank God, but I don't want to think what a large concentration of kids in one area would do to an emergency evacuation--even if their parents were behaving as parents.
Got back last week from a flight from Detroit to Seattle where I had the wonderful opportunity to sit in the center seat while 2 youngsters--one age 4 and one age 7 sat on the aisle and window. The parents of these creatures were in the row in front of us. When I realized that the kids belong to these "Clampetts" I asked them if they would have the child on the aisle switch with me. They said no, that they thought it would be better to not have the children next to each other since they didn't always get along. So then I said that one of them should switch with me. They said no, these were the seats they wanted and that's why they booked them months ago. I checked and of course the plane was completely full, my 275,000 miles on this airline were useless since first class was booked full long before I booked my travel, etc. etc.
The best part was that once the plane left the gate, these "parents" ignored the kids and slept the flight away while I was forced to deal with the squabbling that went on. The kids had absolutely nothing to entertain themselves beyond the air sick bag. They didn't go more than 3 minutes without screaming at each other. They didn't sit down for a minute and spilled more than they drank when drinks came around. I even had a passenger behind me ask me to control my kid--he gave me a very simpathetic look when I told them they weren't mine.
Finally I woke the father up and said that I needed some help dealing with his kids he just laughed. Murder at 35,000 feet seemed impractical.
The flight attendants were very sympathetic, but even they didn't have any luck with the parents. I got certificates for everything that they had in the cabin, free drinks, more miles, the kitchen sink but I'd have given it all away and more to get away from these 2 rotten kids.
I was not very happy sitting next to these 2, but still wondered what would happen in an emergency. I didn't enjoy the idea that these 2 would become my responsibility in the event of a serious problem.
From a practical standpoint, I don't know that it would be wise to seat all the families with children in the same part of the plane. I've never witnessed an evacuation first hand thank God, but I don't want to think what a large concentration of kids in one area would do to an emergency evacuation--even if their parents were behaving as parents.
May 26th, 2000, 08:17 AM
#14
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What a wonderful idea! I sure hope someone from the major airlines picks up on it and follows through. I never had the opportunity to travel with my children when they were small, but since I have started travelling for business purposes I am frequently surrounded by passengers of all ages. I recently went from Phoenix to Denver on a shuttle. I was in row 9 and a family with two small children was in row 6. One of the children screamed the entire time with the exception of about ten minutes when she was drinking a soda. I truly felt sorry for the folks in rows 5 and 7. They were even closer than I was. It had to be miserable. If that family had been in the rear of the plane with other families, we all would have had a more pleasant flight.
May 26th, 2000, 08:35 AM
#15
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Lee,
I feel your pain. Wow!
When I fly with my brood, I find one of the biggest challenges is staying awake and paying attention the whole five hours. I had no idea I could just seat them elsewhere and let them torment you while I snoozed. What a cool idea!
I, for one, would welcome a kids-only section. I had a weird experience on a plane that is arguably related. For whatever reason, my family of five (3 kids) had seats scattered all over the plane. I think there was a weather thing or flight cancellation or something. Obviously, my 1-year old couldn't sit in a row solo, so the flight attendants started moving people around to get us sort of together. People were quite cooperative, of course, and most would have done anything to get away from us. Finally, the flight attendant got my 1-year old and myself together on one side of the aisle, with my 4-year old and 6-year old across the aisle on the window and middle. My husband was maybe five rows forward on the aisle. Not bad, but there was a gentleman in the aisle seat next to the two kids. I asked him to switch with my window-seat kid. He refused. OK, I can understand that because an aisle seat is prime real-estate. So I asked him to switch with my husband. An aisle for an aisle, right? Nope. He just refused to move, not matter what the flight attendants offered him. Very, very strange. He clearly did not like kids. Why would anyone want to sit next to two little kids if they could help it? I'm puzzled. Anyway, I hope he didn't mind the constant bathroom breaks, whining, complaining, bickering, accompanied by my periodic barking to them to knock it off. He also didn't flinch when I asked the girls to pass their trays over to me so I could cut their meat, open their cutlery packs, open their cookie pouch, etc. Heaven only knows how much seat kicking was going on. I couldn't see too well from where I was sitting. It was a real horror show. By contrast, our very best flights have been when there was another kid or baby nearby. Instant friendship!
Anyway, Lee, you raise a good safety point about the idea of putting all of the families in the rear. Hmmm. Maybe we could just say that it would be safer to have kids in the rear because they could be evacuated more quickly out the back as the distance to the exit would be shorter?
I feel your pain. Wow!
When I fly with my brood, I find one of the biggest challenges is staying awake and paying attention the whole five hours. I had no idea I could just seat them elsewhere and let them torment you while I snoozed. What a cool idea!
I, for one, would welcome a kids-only section. I had a weird experience on a plane that is arguably related. For whatever reason, my family of five (3 kids) had seats scattered all over the plane. I think there was a weather thing or flight cancellation or something. Obviously, my 1-year old couldn't sit in a row solo, so the flight attendants started moving people around to get us sort of together. People were quite cooperative, of course, and most would have done anything to get away from us. Finally, the flight attendant got my 1-year old and myself together on one side of the aisle, with my 4-year old and 6-year old across the aisle on the window and middle. My husband was maybe five rows forward on the aisle. Not bad, but there was a gentleman in the aisle seat next to the two kids. I asked him to switch with my window-seat kid. He refused. OK, I can understand that because an aisle seat is prime real-estate. So I asked him to switch with my husband. An aisle for an aisle, right? Nope. He just refused to move, not matter what the flight attendants offered him. Very, very strange. He clearly did not like kids. Why would anyone want to sit next to two little kids if they could help it? I'm puzzled. Anyway, I hope he didn't mind the constant bathroom breaks, whining, complaining, bickering, accompanied by my periodic barking to them to knock it off. He also didn't flinch when I asked the girls to pass their trays over to me so I could cut their meat, open their cutlery packs, open their cookie pouch, etc. Heaven only knows how much seat kicking was going on. I couldn't see too well from where I was sitting. It was a real horror show. By contrast, our very best flights have been when there was another kid or baby nearby. Instant friendship!
Anyway, Lee, you raise a good safety point about the idea of putting all of the families in the rear. Hmmm. Maybe we could just say that it would be safer to have kids in the rear because they could be evacuated more quickly out the back as the distance to the exit would be shorter?
May 26th, 2000, 08:37 AM
#16
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Many years ago we had to move from Madrid to the US with a 4-week old baby. It wasn't an agreeable thing with either of us and we were upset about moving but the AF didn't give us a choice. Our baby started screaming when we took off and didn't stop till we landed in New Jersey, about a 7 hour flight. I felt so terrible for the passengers but we tried everything with him and he just wouldn't stop crying. Before I had children, I would watch people with screaming infants and wonder why the parent can't shut that kid up. I realized then when I had my first child that you can't, and now when I see those babies screaming on the planes, I think, "that poor mother!"
May 26th, 2000, 11:07 AM
#17
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Lee's experience raises a question in my mind. If the parents weren't sitting with their kids and refused to supervise them, aren't the kids unaccompanied minors? There are rules governing minimum ages and so forth. So couldn't the flight attendants have ordered the parents to sit with the kids and thrown them off the plane if they refused? I thought flight attendants (and the captain) had the power to order people to do pretty much anything they wanted if it could be characterized as related to safety.
Lee, sorry the flight attendants didn't try harder to help you out.
Lee, sorry the flight attendants didn't try harder to help you out.
May 26th, 2000, 11:32 AM
#18
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Cindy, I normally agree with many of the views you express here on this forum, but I think that you, like many people, have a major blind spot when it comes to your own children.
If your children whine, bicker and complain during a flight, and you have to issue "periodic barking", they are obviously not paying attention to you. For you to suggest that other passengers attempt to discipline your children because your own methods fail is a complete cop out and a failure to accept responsibility. I don't pay hundreds of dollars for airline tickets to be a babysitter or disciplinarian to your kids or anyone else's. Nor do I expect to sit in the middle of Romper Room with chaos all around me.
People, if you haven't taught your kids to mind and behave, then please don't subject the rest of us to your nagging and your kids' unruly behavior. Take the family car and keep your discipline problems among yourselves.
If your children whine, bicker and complain during a flight, and you have to issue "periodic barking", they are obviously not paying attention to you. For you to suggest that other passengers attempt to discipline your children because your own methods fail is a complete cop out and a failure to accept responsibility. I don't pay hundreds of dollars for airline tickets to be a babysitter or disciplinarian to your kids or anyone else's. Nor do I expect to sit in the middle of Romper Room with chaos all around me.
People, if you haven't taught your kids to mind and behave, then please don't subject the rest of us to your nagging and your kids' unruly behavior. Take the family car and keep your discipline problems among yourselves.
May 26th, 2000, 12:46 PM
#19
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Nemo,
I really can't take issue with most of what you are saying. It is entirely possible that I have a blind spot. After all, how would I know? It's a blind spot.
Anyway, I recounted the incident with the Man Who Would Not Move, even though I knew it did not cast me in the best light, because it shows that even families might welcome being seated with other families. You are surely correct when you say that if my kids were misbehaving and not listening to my barking, they weren't paying attention to me. But that was exactly my point -- the Man Who Would Not Move prevented me from exercising the control I normally can in these situations, and deprived me of the assistance I would normally get from my husband, too. Airlines wouldn't even let kids as young as mine travel unescorted for exactly that reason -- they need supervision and they need someone to keep them occupied so misbehavior can be prevented and addressed.
So I know I have given the impression on this post that my kids are out-of-control terrors. They aren't, because I have high standards and I think it is my job to make sure they don't cause problems. I'm usually successful. But the stories of my many successes and all of their achievements are, well, boring. So I tell the stories about occasions when things didn't go well. But don't you admire my bravery for being willing to admit that there was an instance when my kids were not angels?
By the way, I now have a theory about why the Man Who Would Not Move wouldn't move. I have decided he probably had a bomb underneath his seat and needed to keep his seat to detonate it. My kids tormented him so that he couldn't concentrate and make his peace with God, and so couldn't muster the courage to kill us all. So my kids saved 200 people from certain death.
I told you they were great kids.
I really can't take issue with most of what you are saying. It is entirely possible that I have a blind spot. After all, how would I know? It's a blind spot.
Anyway, I recounted the incident with the Man Who Would Not Move, even though I knew it did not cast me in the best light, because it shows that even families might welcome being seated with other families. You are surely correct when you say that if my kids were misbehaving and not listening to my barking, they weren't paying attention to me. But that was exactly my point -- the Man Who Would Not Move prevented me from exercising the control I normally can in these situations, and deprived me of the assistance I would normally get from my husband, too. Airlines wouldn't even let kids as young as mine travel unescorted for exactly that reason -- they need supervision and they need someone to keep them occupied so misbehavior can be prevented and addressed.
So I know I have given the impression on this post that my kids are out-of-control terrors. They aren't, because I have high standards and I think it is my job to make sure they don't cause problems. I'm usually successful. But the stories of my many successes and all of their achievements are, well, boring. So I tell the stories about occasions when things didn't go well. But don't you admire my bravery for being willing to admit that there was an instance when my kids were not angels?
By the way, I now have a theory about why the Man Who Would Not Move wouldn't move. I have decided he probably had a bomb underneath his seat and needed to keep his seat to detonate it. My kids tormented him so that he couldn't concentrate and make his peace with God, and so couldn't muster the courage to kill us all. So my kids saved 200 people from certain death.
I told you they were great kids.
May 26th, 2000, 02:37 PM
#20
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Cindy, you are no different than millions of other parents. But why would your kids behave differently just because they were one row behind you? I don't buy that.
I for one cannot even imagine whining or complaining when I was a kid. My father, a military man, simply did not stand for it and there were swift and immediate consequences for misbehavior. Believe me, we knew better, whether seated near him or not. I can remember just dying to ask for a certain toy or food at times but knowing that if I did it would be denied. My parents did not tolerate whining, period. Yours probably didn't either.
I think the expectations you set and the consistent discipline you dole out for misbehavior teaches kids how to act. Telling them to stop doing something over and over with no consequences for the behavior does nothing to change it. They will push the limits to see what they can get away with.
Sorry, I'm sure you're a nice person Cindy, but yours sounds like the type of family most of us hate to encounter when traveling.
I for one cannot even imagine whining or complaining when I was a kid. My father, a military man, simply did not stand for it and there were swift and immediate consequences for misbehavior. Believe me, we knew better, whether seated near him or not. I can remember just dying to ask for a certain toy or food at times but knowing that if I did it would be denied. My parents did not tolerate whining, period. Yours probably didn't either.
I think the expectations you set and the consistent discipline you dole out for misbehavior teaches kids how to act. Telling them to stop doing something over and over with no consequences for the behavior does nothing to change it. They will push the limits to see what they can get away with.
Sorry, I'm sure you're a nice person Cindy, but yours sounds like the type of family most of us hate to encounter when traveling.
