When the airline strands you overnight
 

What would you do?

AA flight left the gate at Madison, WI 30 min. behind schedule...all I know is they were waiting on the plane to arrive. After leaving the gate, taxi-ing to the runway, pilot announces that O'Hare tower has planes holding and has asked them to sit for awhile. About 15 minutes later we take off.
After landing at O'Hare, we waited about 10 minutes for our gate to open up. We had a 50 min. layover, and thus missed the plane by minutes.

AA gate agent says we missed the flight due to air traffic control, and thus they owe us nothing for the hotel, etc. I say 40 minutes of the 55 we were delayed was AA's problem, only 15 due to air traffic.

What do you think? Would you call/write etc. and demand satisfaction? If so, any ideas how to go about? Or would you chalk it up to "the way it goes" when traveling during the Holidays AND an orange alert?

BTW, they delayed our flight from SC to O'Hare by about 45 minutes as well. A mad sprint throught the terminal got us on the connection to Madison thanks to some very friendly, kind gate agents on x-mas eve who were actually on hold with "operations" when I ran up, asking if they could hold the plane for us. The evil, sullen, un-communicative troll who "helped" us when we missed our flight was the antithesis of those two.

Well, let me put it this way. I'd never, ever make a reservation with only a 50 minute layover at O'Hare in the dead of winter during the holidays. I think you were running about a 10% chance of making it and a 90% change you wouldn't, from the time you booked.

Why should they "hold the Plane" for you. The 200 or so people on the flight waiting to take off will be delayed and will likely miss their connecting flight. All because they held the flight for YOU!

I've been held up many times waiting for connecting flights to arrive. It mostly happens on overseas flights. ((b))

There are very few cases where the airline will pay for your hotel anymore. Delayed flights is not unusual at any large airport -- but you can't count on your connection being delayed as well. I'm never comfortable with a short layover unless I know there is another flight. But even that doesn't help as the next flight may be full. I have often asked for longer layovers than what I'm offered to begin with -- I'm very uncomfortable with any layover of less than an hour at a large airport.

And I guess to answer your question, you can always "call/write, etc. and demand satisfaction" but I believe you are wasting your time and not entitled to anything in this case. But it might make you feel better to try.

I remember the time our American Eagle flight from Naples, Florida to Miami was delayed almost an hour while they tried to find 15 people (out of a total of 31) to agree to a later flight. Seems the pilot wasn't licensed to fly more than 16 people or some such nonsense. There were 6 of us that were connecting to the same American flight to London. we arrived in Miami, we were about 3 minutes ahead of our scheduled departure, but the plane had LEFT EARLY! No, problem in this case. They put us all on a flight about 45 minutes later to Gatwick, bumped us to first class instead of business and the others to business instead of coach, and even paid for our connecting flight to Dublin because we were missing our "non-refundable or changeable flight" on AerLingus.

Realistically, you'll probably have to chalk it up to how things are in the airline industry post 9/11. But an articulate letter of complaint is always worth writing, and who knows, it might be received by one of the good guys.

I had a similar experience leaving DC on a much delayed AA flight trying to make a connection to Alburquerque in Dallas. An announcement was made at the start of the flight that AA would not be comping anyone who missed the their connecting flights. Tough nuggies. Shortly thereafter the flight crew came around and told everyone "off the record" that anyone who was stranded should complain up and down the customer service chain for compensation. I eventually got a form letter of apology and a discount off my next AA flight. Not much but something.

This kind of thing is the norm in North America - it's happened to us numerous times over the years. However, we had amazing experiences in Australia with Ansett (now defunct - although I don't think their humane business policies led to their demise). They held a plane for us in Melbourne, and when we ran up to the gate the flight attendant said "Don't rush - it's OK - we knew you were coming!" A few weeks later we were leaving Alice Springs and they held the plane for a good half hour because some tourists had "gone walkabout" and couldn't be found. They were worried about the tourists being lost and this was the last plane out of Alice Springs until the next day. Nobody was upset about the delay - in fact they were happy when the missing wanderers turned up. Totally different attitude from what you see in this part of the world.

But I think it's a no win situation for the airlines. As postwhileworking says, holding a flight for YOU may cause other people to miss their connections later on. I'd be even more angry if I were sitting on a plane late to depart and heard an announcement that they were holding the plane for some connecting passengers, and as a result I'd miss my connecting flight at the next point.

Holding a plane for some lost tourists? Why don't I call the airline next time because I overslept and I'll be about an hour late, but trust me I'll be there :-) or, ask the bartender at the airport bar to call the gate and ask them to wait because I just met a wonderful young lady and we're getting on so well. I just need another 30 minutes or so to really get to know her. After all it's in the name of love, the airline and the other paxs should understand :-)

Get real Meesthare. Airlines are in the transportation business. They provide a schedule and I pick the flight that meets mine. If I pick a flight that's suppose to get me to Chicago at 10am, I expect to get there at 10am. Sorry about the lost tourists, late connections and any other reason. I have my reasons to be in Chicago at certain time and I have just as much of a right to expect to get there as anybody else. Maybe to you it's a NICE thing to do for an airline if you only travel once or twice a year, but you have to realize that many. many people fly every week for business and to them any lost time could mean loss of business, loss of family time, etc...
If you want to be nice why don't you get off the plane , find the lost tourists and make sure that next day they find their way to the right plane.

I've traveled over 100K miles this year and my luck has been good overall. I've only had about 2 or 3 major delays and never missed a connection where it was the last flight of the day. I do understand mechanical or weather delays, but I would be very upset as a pax to find out that I'm sitting on a plane because some tourists are wondering around the airport. I would seriously consider taking my business to another airline if I found out that the one I'm giving my business to has such a NICE attitude to wondering/lost tourists.

I also want to add that there is another VERY important reason for keeping schedules by airlines. US air space is heavily used and the major airports assign certain time slots for the plane to take-off from one and land at the other one. If a plane misses the departure time slot that it had been assigned by the air traffic controllers then it could be stuck for some considerable time sitting on the tarmac waiting for a new time slot to be assigned.

Litespeed, if it is the airlines fault, they pay to put you up. If it is out of the airlines hands (weather), you are on your own.

I'm in total agreement with AA.

I was actually surprised that they were considering holding the Madison flight for us.

Come to think of it though, it does seem that there is a bit of difference when you hold a plane that is heading for an "end-of-the-line" destination. Especially late at night. Also, seems their computers should let them know if a plane w/ connecting passengers is arriving at another gate so that a 5-10 minute hold would suffice. I certainly think it would be bad policy to hold a plane going to a hub long enough to endanger other pax connections.

Patrick, I love your London story...I had a similar experience once (although the destinations were not as exciting). Same excursion to Madison, we had taken a flight to Chicago because it was so much cheaper than flying to Wisconsin, and were planning to rent a car and drive 3 hours to Madison. In those days there was no direct flight to O'Hare and after flying to Charlotte to connect, they cancelled the Chicago flight. We were put on another airline, in first class, to Milwaukee, which was actually closer to our real destination in the first place. Too bad the happy endings are so rare :-)

Go Travel - can you clarify what you meant by total agreement with AA? There were no weather problems whatsoever. It is also my understanding that they owe you nothing for weather, but I repeat...no weather on either end, and AA does not claim there was weather.

Litespeed, I'm in agreement because I would be pissed if I found out the airlines were holding my flight because of other pax.

I've been in AA's shoes and flown over 100,000 miles a year and it is a big difference from leisure travel.

I want to get there, get done with my business and get home.

Since I've stopped working, you can't get me on a plane.

Oh, I see.

Appears the direction of the thread has moved to "should they have held the plane?" instead of my actual question which is "should they compensate me for my hotel room?"

I'm just curious what other's experiences have been. The only other time this happened to me, US Air comped the hotel room.

I see your point, AAFrequentFlier, and the situation was obviously different in Australia. Alice Springs is not exactly a teeming metropolis. I'm not suggesting that North American airlines should do things differently, merely deploring the fact that they can't afford to. In Australia, at least when we were there, passengers were prepared to put up with delays because the planes were often held for latecomers. Here, we're prepared to put up with missed connections because the planes don't get held. It's just a matter of which inconvenience you have to endure.

Litespeed,

I would e-mail the AA CS from their site www.aa.com

They will probably reply with "they don't owe you anything", but from mine and other AA loyalists experience they may offer to either pay for the hotel after you mail the hotel folio or give you a voucher for future travel, or if you're AAdvantage member, offer to deposit some miles to your account.

The plane was held up by air traffic controllers, so ultimately they are not responsible for your missed connection. And this also validates my points in the previous post, how when a plane is running late, it looses it's slot, thus it could possibly become a long wait.

Do you know the reason why the plane was 30 minutes late departing? Did it arrive late, had a mechanical or maybe it was held back because of some wind bursts at your airport or weather problems where it came from?

I do agree that the GAs should be more forthcoming with the paxs in situations like that, but generally they're not. Their jobs are not as easy as they seem. They are held responsible for any delays, at the same time they may have to work with an overbooked flight, special requests, etc...etc... They are graded how smoothly every flight they get assigned to departs and how much money they did NOT spend from the AA account. Their job security depends on this.

It's always good to have some status with the airline you fly most as that allows you call call the respective status desk and the agents there have the power and authority to help in special cases like this. I do understand that not everybody can attain status, I'm just pointing out the facts.

In a majority of situation, it's not the passenger who plan his itinerary but
the airlines company which proposes it...
If I go to my travel agency and ask for a Paris-Tucson flight, they ask to
a company, delta ,i.e. and i'll receive
my itinerary on a delta ticket.
If there is a short connexion, and if I miss it, even due to a too busy air traffic, it's Delta fault not mine...
They have not to give me such tickets...
If I buy a Paris Atlanta ticket and then an Atlanta-Tucson ticket independa
tely to try to have a short connexion
it would be my fault, but who acts like this...
In the railway connexion, in France when time seems to short to the
SNCF agent who sells me the ticket he
didn't sell it and sell me an available ticket which allows me to the connexion.
So, for me if the whole schedule is on an unique company receipt, they have to honor what they have sold.
Erik.
NB : anytime I've had some misconnexion,
in Atlanta, Delta have given or a room
coupons or at the return in France a
voucher to use on other flights..(2 years ago, a 500 $ voucher for each of
us-we were four-for a misconnexion in
Atlanta...).I've to said that since 6 years, we are or silver or gold medallions...

Pretty sure it is Delta policy for all connections in Atlanta to have at least a sixty minute window.

I'm shocked that O'Hare being an AA hub doesn't have a similar policy. If they do, they will owe you a refund.

Monpetit -- in most cases, just because a certain itinerary is proposed, the passenger does not have to accept the first one offered. They can always say "I would prefer a longer lay-over time". The agent may try to tell you that it's a "legal" connection which means it meets whatever the minimum allowable time for that airport is supposed to be. IMO, this simply is not necessarily adequate as it allows no time for contingencies -- the "legal" connection means if everything is running smoothly and on-time, you (and your luggage) should be able to make the connection. Whether I book my own ticket via the internet, book through my company's travel department, or call the airlines direct (as in using FF miles), I always check to see what the layover time is and ask for different flights if I don't feel that it offers enough time. I don't always get different flights (may not be anything else available for whatever reason) but I always have the right to ask.

If I'm flying internationally, I try to ensure two things: 1) that the overseas flight is not the last one of the day from that airport and 2) that the layover time between my connections is 3-4 hours. This may be excessive but I learned my lesson from a trip to Paris during April one year. I was flying through Houston with a planned, adequate 2 hour lay-over. My flight from San Antonio to Houston was delayed over two hours due to weather (thunderstorms) in Houston and that was the last flight to Paris from Houston for the day. If I'd taken an earlier flight to Houston, I wouldn't have lost a day of my vacation. As a result, I always request a longer layover now. I spend more time in the airport.....but I spent a WHOLE DAY at IAH when I missed the flight. And incidentally, even though that was a weather delay, CO put the international travellers up in a hotel for the night when we missed our flight.

I agree with AAF... and I also have made
some change with some companies's
proposal, even if agent assures to me time was enough to make the connection but if they don't have other schedule or if they change the schedule during your holidays(what have happen one time...) I think they have to honor what they sell...
Erik.

You know, this brings up an interesting question -- does anyone know of a listing of "legal" connection times at major airports? Is it set by the airlines or FAA or who? I know I've often been told that something I consider inadequate is "legal" but who determines this? And how do we find out what it is other than just asking when we call the airlines? If I'm booking my own tickets, I have to assume that whatever pops up on Expedia or Travelocity is a "legal" connection and then use my own gut feeling about whether it's okay or not. (And thre may be another word for it other than "legal" but I'm pretty sure that's the word I've heard used when I question the layover time in the past.)

"Pretty sure it is Delta policy for all connections in Atlanta to have at least a sixty minute window."

"I'm shocked that O'Hare being an AA hub doesn't have a similar policy. If they do, they will owe you a refund."

Earlier today AA's web site offered me a pair of flights that had only 29 minutes to change planes in O'Hare.

Keith

Keith, you'll find Delta's website will do the same thing with Delta. I've had it happen to me and called Delta for another reason and they changed the connection time. This is how I originally found out about the policy.

Keith - It appeared to me that all the American Eagle flights were landing and departing from the same (relatively small) terminal. I suppose that if both your flights were American Eagle, and your connecting flight arrived on time, then 29 minutes wouldn't be a problem.

Otherwise, take it from me, don't get the last flight out! Oh, and the Ramada Plaza has a shuttle bus to take you back to the airport running every 15 min. starting at 5 a.m. ;-)

Litespeed,

This was one American Eagle flight and one American. They would be different terminals. And in my experience the American Eagle flights from Michigan never arrive in Chicago on time.

Keith

Here's what I've learned from a few years in the airline industry, while in college, and as a frequent business traveler.

When traveling into and out of a major hub, especially one with a bad reputation like O'Hare, count on a delay during a time of year where the weather can be bad. Plan accordingly. Fortunately, I live in New York so flights are plentiful. But, I never make the last flight out my only option.

Second, don't assume that the weather where you are is the only weather that impacts your flight. With hubs, planes can come in from around the country which can affect your inbound flights promptness. You also need to fly on air "corridors" from point to point. Sometime, that's where the weather is. In addition, flights in the midwest are particularly susceptible to out-of-region weather delays as sometimes this results in an increased separation between flights already in the air. As the coast to coast flights are already up, if a weather problem occurs, the distance between planes may increase which reduces the number of flights still on the ground that can get into a flight pattern. You also then have to factor in that within certain ATC centers, some airports have priority. In New York, for example, flights into and out of Newark are behind JFK and LGA in terms of ATC priority.

In terms of them holding a plane, don't count on it. When it happens, it is only because they may have to put you up overnight, because it is clearly their fault, and they know with certainty when your plane will arrive. If your flight is stuck in a ATC delay circling the airport, it is hard for them to know exactly when you will land. In addition, what you may think is only a wait of a few minutes, may actually turn into a significant delay. If a pilot is given clearance to depart the gate on a day, like yours, where ATC delays are occurring, they can get shoved to the bottom of a very long list. When they are told to go, they need to go.

You've discovered what many of us have, flying can sometimes be a real pain in the .....

Great points Ryan!

I must add that do not schedule an afternoon flight on the east coast between June and August. Almost daily, those horrible thunderstorms screw up air travel.

Got stuck in a holding pattern over Richmond one time because of the above. NYC airspace was closed and the only planes being allowed to land were the big jumbo jets coming in from Europe.

I don't see that this is related to Code Orange post 9/11 -- this kind of stuff happens all the time, and happened before 9/11. Lots of planes are delayed and don't take off on time. In fact, most of the flights I've been on haven't taken off on time in the last ten years. I don't come up with the same math you do in terms of clearly their fault vs. air control, etc. Both the 15 min. original air traffic delay and the 10 min on ground waiting for a gate add up to 25 min. of the 55. It's also possible the original 30 min. delay wasn't their fault either, I guess you don't know why that flight was late.

Well, I don't think it hurts to complain if you want to take the time, but I wouldn't expect anything. I've had much worse problems with AA and they didn't give me anything. I don't like AA at all, I think they have terrible customer service and don't want to give you anything, even when it doesn't "cost" them much. I asked for some FF miles for the fact that their fault (and clearly their fault, even they admitted it -- they had mechanical failures on two planes in a row, no other problems with air control or anything) caused me to miss an entire's day of work (they did pay for the hotel room). They wouldn't give me anything, just quoted some rules about how they didn't have to because they got me to my destination eventually (about 27 hours late). I wrote to some email address I found on their web site for customer complains. Oh, first I wrote them a formal hardcopy FAX, including all my documentation (copies of boarding passes, etc) and receipts (for misc. phone expenses, etc). They did not even respond to that FAX even though I got return receipt that it transmitted correctly to the phone no. on their web site. Later, I emailed and eventually they just responded and said tough luck and claimed they never received my FAX. I think they are liars.

27 hours late? They owe you more than the hotel rooms.

Call AA and ask for the contract of carriage and read rule 240.

Christina,

I'd agree with GoTravel, 27 hours is beyond the point most have been comped for costs, including from AA.

As far as connection times, etc, it seems that these days, you have to be your own itinerary planner. Anyone who flies through some of the major hubs, especially international knows how those queues can be. Accepting a one hour layover through LAX for instance on an Int'l flight would be sheer madness, no matter what any website says. We had a 4 hour layover scheduled two weeks ago through there to catch the one and only flight of the day to Melbourne, Australia. After sudden flight cancellations, frantic re-routes (thanks AA counter crew!), we had less than 90mins to clear LAX in a real squeaker.

Coming back, the plane is hail damaged and we're 6 hours delayed getting out of MEL back to LAX for a connection to St. Louis. Missed connect, nearly missed the only other non-stop. Made it through LAX in 45 minutes, but to be honest, I'll admint we were obnoxious and did a lot of line shortcutting/groveling/batting of eyelashes. 21 hours already in transit will definitely call on some creative moves, but mostly you just have to play it by ear and see if you can get some of the crew on your side.

Never though would I allow less than 90 mins to get through any of the major US airports (ORD, LAX, JFK, DFW...) or Heathrow for that matter)

Such situations are covered by Rule 240, and each airline has their own specifications for this. Check out www.mytravelrights.com/travellaw.cfm?ai=3
I'm a pretty seasoned traveler, no legal expert, but if the original 30 minute delay was due to one of the reasons for which the airline is not responbsible (weather, ATC hold, etc.) then I'd bet you're SOL. And especially with American Airlines, I sure wouldn't count on anything even remotely resembling good customer service. I avoid AA like the plague.