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traveling to California just got alot more enjoyable

traveling to California just got alot more enjoyable

Oct 9th, 2003, 08:05 AM
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,449
So what you are saying Andrew is that Californian's have unrealistic expectations as to how to solve their financial mess. Tax me, No. Cut spending, No. So, what's left?

How do people really expect the problem to be resolved?
Ryan is offline  
Oct 9th, 2003, 08:24 AM
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"Let's face it: Arnold has no experience at all that qualifies him for the governorship."

what kind of experience does he need?

isn't it the "experience" of career politicians that's gotten california into this mess?
Oct 9th, 2003, 08:24 AM
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The latest from CA treasuer - the projected CA deficit next year will be at least $8B, and in all likelihood $20B or more.

Arnold has vowed to repeal the vehicle tax increase (adding another $4B to the deficit estimate). He may also attempt to cut other taxes.

Arnold promises not to cut education budgets. He says he will ask Bush for a lot of assistance (translate:money), when Bush is running a $500-$650B budget deficit.

Support Arnold all you like. But at least acknowledge he is in for the fight of his life with a Democratic legislature which intends to resist his every reduction in spending.

What's his strategy for taming the deficit and building CA?
Oct 9th, 2003, 08:28 AM
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Up and down the west coast, and from Pacific to Atlantic, people want lower taxes and level or increased services. In states like California or Oregon or Washington where referenda and initiatives (or recalls) are easy to launch, the voters have the ability - and recently the desire - to vote themselves into financial crisis. Oregon, just up the road from Sacramento, has managed to vote itself into economic depression. My considered opinion is that, due to shockingly poor preparation in school regarding civics and economics and how things really work, the majority of these voters just don't get it. They don't know enough about how government operates, how it's financed, who's accountable for what, how laws and programs get put in place or ended, all of that. What percentage of the electorate in California - on any side - do you think has ever spoken personally to an elected state official? How many have ever looked at a state budget or examined their property tax bill in detail or wondered where their taxes really go? For most of us, our property taxes are paid by the mortgage company, income taxes taken out of our paychecks, and sales taxes collected by the goober behind the register or by whoever programs the gas pumps. I'll tell you this: they never taught it in school, probably because the majority of the teachers themselves don't get it.

Cutting waste and featherbedding and all that is easy to say, but every one of those programs and staff positions and budget line items that "new brooms" want to get rid of were put there through the decisions of a voted, democratic, accountable political system. You vote for the electeds, they go off to Sacramento or Salem or Austin, where they're schmoozed day to night by lobbyists from state employees' unions, oil companies, environmental leagues, liquor distributors, teachers and highway contractors. Nobody at home knows about this, because the Times is too busy digging up gropees or Channel 11 is running serial murder 24/7.

It's the ultimate irony of democratic politics - "We don't like what we told you to do so we're going to do something different. What is it we told you to do anyway?" Education is the key - to be an effective democratic society we have to be effective citizens, and we have to learn how, the earlier the better.

Sermon ends.
Gardyloo is online now  
Oct 9th, 2003, 08:32 AM
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This is done by eliminationg overspending on useless programs and laying off(yes) government workers who have jobs promised to them by liberal leadership the are ineffective. This is the worlds 8th largest economy,I think they can cut the spending enough to balance the books,given the large commercial tax base.

This,of course,is foreign to all liberal spenders. in government.
ahhnold is offline  
Oct 9th, 2003, 08:49 AM
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Ahnold, why don't you list the other items on Arnold's impressive (non-acting) resume if there's so much more than Planet Hollywood? And I don't mean just as an investor - I mean as a real leader of a company?

"uuhhhh", what kind of experience should a government need, you ask? Well, how about some prior experience working in government? In some lower government role - legislator, mayor, city council, anything? Arnold has zero experience dealing with the issues of governing and - unless you can show me otherwise - no experience running even a modest sized company, let alone the huge bureacracy that is the State of California. Sheesh, even Reagan was president of the screen actor's guild - not much, but compared to Arnold, that looks like a lot.

I'm tired of people saying "Anyone can be governor" (and do it well) because that's just not true. Anyone can be a state or congressional representative, but executive leadership is very different. There are tons of issues to deal with, many, many decisions to make, and a need to understand the needs and issues facing the entire state (and California has a wide variety of issues). And of course, you must work with the state legislature to get laws passsed. Anyone who thinks Joe Blow off the street is as qualified as anyone else to be Governor of California is just terribly uninformed or deluded.

Andrew is online now  
Oct 9th, 2003, 08:50 AM
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Ahhnold, trust me when I tell you that the two categories of cuts you favor(laying off ineffectual government workers, and cutting "overspending on useless programs") simply will not translate into enough dollars to balanace your budget. Your budget needs are not static - they are increasing each year.

Again, CA itself says it faces $8B to $20B in red ink BEFORE he repeals the triple increase in car taxes. That repeal is estimated to add another $4B to revenue shortfall.

You are talking about an immediate budget cut of at least $12B and possibly as much as $24B for each and every year. Can you imagine the impact in your state? Can you imagine how many programs will have to be eliminated - and for every program you will find people in both parties wedded to it and willingn to fight to the death to retain it. You are talking about political chaos. And Arnold will get the blame, not Davis.

Ahhnold, your only path to success is to increase taxes and expand your economy - and build a new belief in CA that everyone is sharing the pain. And that if you make these very hard choices now, that in 5-10 years, CA will once again have a rosey future.

Do take a look at what Gardyloo says - very wise.

One last thought: CA likes to look west, to the asian economies where you can do business. That area has just proposed establishing itself as a giant open trade market for its members. That will mean CA faces a very hard task of trying to get in and complete. That is going to affect your economy greatly, for decades to come. I just hope Arnold is smart enought to plan and look around the corners, as they say. I hope he's absorbed the lesson of Bush in the WH - at some point the one liners simply break apart and the public gets disillusioned. Take a look east and see what is occurring, and pray Arnold is a lot smarter.

I wish you well. I shall be in CA very soon, one of my favorite states. I do wish it well.
Oct 9th, 2003, 08:52 AM
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Gardyloo, I do agree with you, although not about the Times.

Ahhnold, services tend to be "non-essential" when you don't personally need them.
Barbara is online now  
Oct 9th, 2003, 08:56 AM
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So let me understand this issue, your choices were to vote for the "professional" guy (and his party, as they are the majority in the legislature) who helped create the budget problems because "they have the experience" or bring in someone else.

Good luck California.
Ryan is offline  
Oct 9th, 2003, 09:05 AM
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State Senate President John Burton will chew up Arnold next year and make the Groper wish he never jumped into politics. The Terminator will be forced to raise taxes, ice water to the currently euphoric Republicans of that state.
SteveJudd is offline  
Oct 9th, 2003, 09:10 AM
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Surely just because Ahhnold fooled most of those voters in California, doesn't mean he could fool all Americans (if he COULD run for prez). We'd never fall for someone with virtually no experience who has little to no command of the English language to run this country.....
Austin is offline  
Oct 9th, 2003, 09:13 AM
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My last thought (yes, and hard to believe, I know, lol).

What Gardyloo posted is right on point. We fail to connect services with costs, and thus want to be free of costs. Basically it's an education issue. In the popular mind, government always wastes money, and government workers are the problem, and thus must be done away with.

And as Barbara says, any service you no longer need personally is non-essential, thus can be eliminated. Is this why we starve our education budgets?

We must be willing to pay for our services. That means higher taxes - unless you hit another boom like the 90s and revenues simply expand. But don't count on it.

Good luck, CA.
Oct 9th, 2003, 09:17 AM
Join Date: Feb 2003
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Good one. I know then you'll agree with me that we shouldn't elect as president someone who is more than a groper, that is, someone who is a serial adulter and lier, and would break the laws he himself signed about government officials having affairs with their subordinates, such as an intern, then lying to the country about it, right?
Jacko is offline  
Oct 9th, 2003, 09:30 AM
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Enough talk about Arnolds lack of english command. He is an immigrant and english is probably his third language. People criticize Jesse Jackson for his accent are labeled racists and this is no different.
ahhnold is offline  
Oct 9th, 2003, 09:46 AM
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Oy, this thread is getting uglier by the hour.

First of all: California is the world's FIFTH largest economy by itself, not the eighth.

Second of all: This is a travel website, and if people want to engage others in political discourse, wouldn't it be best done on a website with that specific purpose?

Third of all: Since this country manages to stumble along regardless of the incompetence of the leaders, I think we can all relax.

Fourth of all: Consensual sex between adults is FAR, FAR different than unwelcome groping (and the stories are recounting pretty rough handling). Guys, would you like it if some big woman vise-gripped your private areas, uninvited?

Lastly: Can't we all just get along...? Please?
rjw_lgb_ca is offline  
Oct 9th, 2003, 09:54 AM
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Whoa, we are getting along. This is simply a discussion. Nothing ugly going on. It's not travel - but Fodosr will survive us. And if you chose to "relax" while your leaders stumble, that's your decision. And not one I'd ever wish to emulate.
Oct 9th, 2003, 12:09 PM
Join Date: Jan 2003
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Had to chime in here about Arnold. I saw a program last night on tv that said his net worth is around $800 million. Not only does he have interest in Planet Hollywood, but he owns a mall in Ohio worth around $100 million in addition to his real estate and other holdings. According to the program the guy is hands on with most of his business ventures. Say what you want about him, he is a shrewd businessperson.
buckeyemom is offline  
Oct 9th, 2003, 12:11 PM
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so rjw, which is worse: adultery and lying, or acknowledged groping?
Oct 9th, 2003, 12:14 PM
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First, I'm trying to figure out just what the politics in California have to do with travel???

Second, I find it incredibly flattering to live in a state that has suddenly become the most interesting item to talk about by people from other states. Guess politics in states other than CA must be pretty darn boring to be looking "out west" for something to discuss.

Third, if you don't live here, you really have nothing to say. Live here, work here, watch a government that is supposed to be for the people become so far removed that they have lost touch with reality. Then you can make any and all comments you like. Otherwise, you are simply flapping gums and not to be taken seriously at all. I don't talk about politics in any other state because I don't live there and trust the people that do to make their own decisions. I've always wondered at the reasons why folks from other states feel they can tell Californians what to do.

Fourth, I work for government. I see the waste. I see how one inadequate "experiement" is begun and then simply continued because "we don't want to lose the funding." Trust me, government entities are well aware at how to keep ineffectual, inadequate programs running for years simply to get state and federal dollars. And it ain't just California. Yes, cutting programs will hurt - those who have jobs that feed off of the funding and those that continue to receive. And there are many programs the state has control over that would be better served in the private sector. CalTrans is just one example, but there are many.

Fifth, Arnold was voted in exactly because he isn't a "career politician." With this election - sad as it is to say - more people became more educated in the way the system works. Those who have educated themselves will be watching, and I do believe the "career politicians" are now aware of that. Feintstein was on the news this morning warning that Arnold is going to have to "give" to the Legislature. To some degree that is true, however, more people here feel empowered. People can make a difference, something that most people here had not thought possible. And with those people now watching Sacramento to see what Arnold will do, it just may be the Legislature that will have to "give" to satisfy the demands of their constituents. I do believe that is what politicians are supposed to do to begin with, yes?
Chele60 is offline  
Oct 9th, 2003, 12:18 PM
Join Date: Apr 2003
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Greetings from one of the 80% from San Francisco who didn't vote for the recall.
I have Post Tramatic Election Stress Syndrome (actually I have had that since Bush was appointed,the Governator made it worse), but anyway- Thanks for a nice political debate.
Education and Health and Human Services will continue to be, by far, the largest part of the California budget-both either mandated by the California electorate (prop 98)or the Federal Government(Medicare,etc.) I don't see many tax cuts there.
John Burton will still be around (I hope)to be a thorn in the Governator's side.
It will be very interesting to see what the new Governator can do.
The scary thing is, we have remnants in the White House from the last actor we elected.
oforparis is offline  

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