Stupid Question #37 Re: Airline Overbooking
 

There has been a lot of buzz recently about various airlines, flight cancellations, delays, overbooking, and bad service in general. <BR> <BR>U.S. News has this as their cover story, and quoted someone as saying that airlines NEED to overbook because some people just don't show up for their flight. This got me to wondering why they're allowed to overbook at all. I know I pay for my ticket when I purchase it, and if I don't show up for the flight, whose business is it anyhow? The airline has already been compensated for that seat and I'm not entitled to a refund. Can someone enlighten me here?

Lori, I'm no expert, but my understanding is that if you book and pay for a seat (even a non-refundable ticket), and you miss your flight and arrive within 2 hours of departure, they have to put you on the next available flight. (This has happened to me too many times for me to be willing to share.) So if they didn't overbook, they might fly partially filled planes. <BR> <BR>Now if you bought a ticket that was a total iron-clad contract whereby the airline left you sobbing at the gate if you missed the flight, then I think you'd be on to something. <BR>

Here's the deal Lori. Airlines (and hotels) know that a given percentage of their clients with reservations won't show up. To try and maximize revenues, they attempt to fill the spaces that will LIKELY be vacant by accepting more reservations than they can accomm. <BR>If everyone shows up, of course, there are problems. In the case of the airlines, you have paid for a seat and they have a contractual obligation to get you to your destination. This may include a "bump" to a later flight. It may require that they pay another airline to fly you. It may necessitate an overnight if you are at a connecting airport. <BR>If you've already bought your seat and the airline has your $$ why should they be concerned about filling the seat anyway? More $$ of course. You really can't blame them for trying. The primary flaw lies with the computer programs that project the percentage of no-shows. This situation will likely improve with time.

This overbooking thing has me perplexed as well. When my boyfriend and I arrived at the gate to receive our boarding passes, we found out that our flight was overbooked by 21 people. This was an America West flight to Las Vegas. We were told to have a seat and if we were lucky, our names might get called to board the plane. There was total chaos at the gate. Many angry travelers. Well, we got "lucky". By the time we received our boarding passes we no longer had the seats we requested months ago. Just before I stepped onto the plane, one of the ticket people came running towards the plane announcing that he needed 6 more volunteers and that the vouchers had increased to $600. All who volunteered were guaranteed a seat on the very next flight. Of course we volunteered. Our original flight was supposed to depart at 0835. Due to the big mess, the plan did not depart until 0915. The flight we changed to departed on time at 1035 and we were given decent seats. Frankly, I don't see how we lost. We were going on vacation and by the time we arrived in Vegas we couldn't check into the hotel anyway. I cannot understand why America West would overbook by so many people and then turn around and give so many volunteers $600 travel vouchers. By the way, the people who had volunteered earlier when they were offering $400 vouchers were given the increase as well. There was a total of 13 volunteers. Makes no sense to me. We felt as though we hit the jackpot even before arriving in Vegas. By the way, has anyone had any trouble using these travel vouchers?

To me, this entire scenario is positively ridiculous. The result, I would suppose, of everyone's wish many years ago that "Big Brother" (the federal government) not have anything to do with "free enterprise", hence "deregulation". This has had the consumers over the preverbial barrel ever since, and for some reason has never been corrected. To me, when one has paid for tickets and seat assignments and arrives at the airport at the designated time (only to discover that it takes longer to get through the line), AND has "non-cancellable", "non-refundable", seats), one should expect to actually HAVE those seats ON that flight. Sadly, many loyal customers buy into the "points" and "frequent flyer miles" programs which have ins and outs and restrictions beyond belief. No matter what (or so you're advised), others have many more than you do and yours are worthless. Or, "designated seats" for when you want to go have been sold out. I think it's high time we did something about this. When one compares the salaries and benefits of airline employees to ours, you can only wonder what they're whining about, not to mention severely inconviencing their customer base. The entire "business" has gotten way out of hand. Reports, lately, blame the lack of runways and airport facilities. Just like prisons and waste treatment plants, though, everyone wants to have them, but not in their neighborhood. This forums provides and excellent opportunity to study the problem and consider ways to correct it. Any ideas?

Airlines, hotels and car rental agencies overbook simply because WE in the traveling public won't pick up the darn phone if we're not going to use that seat, car, or room we've reserved! Jerrol's correct in that maximizing revenues is the goal and if a plane has reservations for 125 seats I GUARANTEE it will fly with 115 or fewer. So, they must overbook to actually fill the plane. Last week a ticket agent told me my Southwest flight from Chicago to New Orleans (via Birmingham) was "sold" at 152, and the plane had 134 seats. We left with five empty seats! <BR> <BR>I worked as a hotel manager for many years and a rule that worked pretty well was that 10% of all guaranteed arrivals and 50% of all non-gtd. arrivals would be no-shows. Sometimes we got stuck and had to "walk" people to other hotels but other times we STILL had empty rooms despite a 10% overbooking! <BR> <BR>(Incidentally, I own a B&B now and NEVER overbook because of our small number of rooms and pre-payment policies. If I had 100 rooms and didn't require advance payment, it could be a different story!) <BR> <BR>

May I ask a question of all of you experts? What happens if I'm bumped from a flight where I am using my frequent flyer miles? As I'm just about ready to do that, now I'm concerned. What "rights" (for lack of a better word!) do I have then - any? Or am I stuck. TIA for all your expert advice. I really do appreciate it!

Lori, to your original question as to why the airline would care about no-shows if they've been paid for those seats, most business travelers buy fully refundable tickets, so they get their money back if they "no show". And they're the ones most likely to "no show". <BR> <BR>One (small) benefit of this situation is that most airlines will let you fly standby on an earlier flight without penalty even if you have a non-changeable ticket. If they have a seat available on the earlier flight, they'll happily put you on it to avoid the possibility of overbooking on your originally scheduled flight. This comes in handy when a meeting's been canceled or you just want to get home early. <BR> <BR>And to Jerrol's point of using computer programs to predict the number of no-shows, I think they are getting better. Delta started using a new one a couple of years ago, and I haven't been on an overbooked Delta flight since. <BR> <BR>And if you are involuntarily bumped due to overbooking, you are entitled to government-mandated compensation from the airline depending on how late you are to your destination. So there is still some governmental regulation of the situation.

I understand the frustration re overbooking, but sometimes there are good reasons why people get bumped other than airline greed. I recently took a flight from San Diego to Dulles. They bumped 46 people! Why? Something about weight restrictions and high tail winds. I think a tail wind affects lift, so if everyone had gotten on, well . . . . Let's not talk about what might happen. <BR> <BR>Anyway, my new philosophy is just to get there plenty early. On that San Diego flight, the late arrivers (20 min before departure) were the ones who got bumped and had to be bussed to LA for a flight. One lady said she had surgery in the morning and begged and cried to get on the SD flight, but no one would give her a seat. So just get there early and you'll only get bumped when you want to get bumped. <BR> <BR>I used to try to time it as closely as possible, and that is just not feasible now.

I hope they continue to overbook flights. I try to get to the gate first in the hope that I will be bumped. Last year, I got a voucher on American for anywhere AA flew on one flight and a Continental voucher on another. The cost to me for both vouchers was 1 hour.

Donna, <BR>You made some blanket statements about airline employees in general. Do you have data & facts to back up what you say about wages, not just what you think or feel? What you say MAY be true about upper management &/or executives, & again it may not. And what is your definition of ours, in referring to wages. You need to compare positions in the airline industries with like positions(such as computer programmers & cafeteria workers, & even weather people) in other industries. If you do that, you may find that many of the airline wages are below or on par with other industries. Why no outrage about what auto industry or insurance industry people make in wages, because they can get paid what the market will bear? Or what about merchandising employees who get discounts on purchases? Benefits are part of the wage package & many of the people that I know in the airline industries don't get paid as much as some in other industries. As for the misconception about flight benefits, it is not free to employees, & it is standby only. Employees only get a seat if there are any left after everybody else has been taken care of. Which means that not many employees are able to use this benefit, especially lately. With the economy being as good as it is the past few years, & more & more flights being filled by paying customers, which is great for the company, the flight benefits are less available to airline employees, so part of their wage/benefit package is reduced.

We have a flight to Boston that was booked months and months ago (Jan to be exact) with frequent flier miles. We had e-ticket's, which I've heard in the meantime, are not as reliable as a paper ticket as far as getting your seat on the plane if it is overbooked. I called United yesterday to have new paper tickets mailed (which they are doing) but am wondering if this really makes a difference. ??? I really don't want to get bumped, voucher or no voucher!

WJI, you have made some excellent points. Employees always deserve to get the best wages, benefits they can. In my area (Chicago)the wages are excellent for airline (United / Delta <BR>employees) people that I know. In fact the only person I know who is paid more relatively (as an hourly worker and not self-employed) for what they do is a long term GMC millwright. Do you know that our social values put teachers, policemen and especially social workers near the bottom of average salary levels. The nurses that leave my school this year will find work for sure, mostly at night, and for anywhere from <BR>$16-24 an hour. One caught Hepatitis C within months of passing her boards. These professions do not strike because of the horrible repercussions upon the <BR>needs for their services. It is too bad that the line is being crossed as some people have been truly left in dire and dangerous circumstances with the kinds of service that some airlines have given them this summer. John, you are so right! Why don't people call if they are not going to show??? What ignorance and inconsideration. Then all this huge percentage of overbooking going on could be at least modified. herself, I wish you could have seen the 13 member Arabian family who waited at LaGuardia for over 28 hours in May with me. They had come 2-1/2 hours early so that they would have no trouble with "overbooking" etc. Missed their wedding in Chicago and 4 members were in the wedding party. The husband had to have <BR>his wife sedated by a doctor. He was a grocer from New Jersey who could only think about how they would ever use the $1000 dresses again. The teenage son was crying like crazy as he had a role to play in his culture for his cousin and it was a very grave offense for him to have been there. Overbooking can look pretty nasty if you have ever been on the other end of fate.

Jeanette, I am wondering who gave you that idea that united employees are paid well. They are not, do you know what the starting salary for a customer service agent is? I do I am one. $8.00 and hour. I have been with UA for 4 years and make only $10.00. And all this crap about benefits well you try getting on a plane that is overbooked by 20 people. We do fly space available that's only if space is available after all passenegers are on the aircraft. Please if you are going to state something get it right, this is why we are all going thru hell right now because people are playing post office.

Dear airline employee, If you have just been hired in recent years at that wage then you probably should not have taken the job. Are you in the Union? What a mess, because your fellow employees in the Union with more years of service are making multiples of what you are. A perfect example of a mis-managed company that has newer people working for a fraction of what older employees get for doing the same job. I wouldn't work for that salary, and especially with an O'Hare commute- regardless of where you live. I agree that your benefits on stand-by travel are nil. Believe me, it is true, that people who have worked with Union membership and for 10 plus years that I know are making a whole lot more than you are. Will you even be benefitted by <BR>sticking with the slow down etc. if you are not in the Union?

<BR>I, too, think it's about time something is done about this overbooking policy the airlines have which can cause havoc in our travel plans. When I make my trip plans I am not concerned about the "joy" of being bumped and makng money or vouchers due to this ridiculous policy. I just want to get to my destination according to the schedule I expected (within reason). <BR> <BR>However, Brian hit the nail on the head and when mentioned the business travels. I think, if it were checked, one would probably find out that "they" are the real cause for the havoc! Sure they pay more for their "refundable" tickets but does that mean it should turn my plans upside down! I think the way to resolve this is for the airlines to attach some type of penalty to even the "refundable" tickets so that they will think twice before being a "no show". <BR> <BR>Their selfish acts of not bothering to cancel in time not only causes problems for travelers like myself but can also be expensive for the airlines due to the overbooking process to protect themselves.

Jeanette, You have valid points. But there are all different levels of employees in the airline industries, from janitorial to cafeteria to reservations to airport workers to operations to computer programming to pilots etc, etc,. Just like any other industry certain positions across different levels are paid differently, & not all are Union. Hence computer programmers(which are not Union) get paid multiples of gate agents, & many pilots get paid multiple of programmers, etc. But there is that type of disparity in just about any business. But the programmers I know inside the airline industries could get more cash wages working in other industries, but the various benefits are supposed to make up the difference. & they stay in the industry at those wages because of the supposed benefits(right now, the flight benefits are somewhat non-existant, even for employees with a number of years of senority - standby employees get the avalable seats based on senority, not first come first serve. I have also heard that UAL pilots may want to change that rule for them & their families, where they will get on before any other employee regardless of senority - don't know if that is true or not) & also because, beleive it or not, many like working in that industry, or because of the senority they have, or various other reasons. Again many employees may be getting a good wage, but not as good as they could get in another businesses. <BR>& other employees may just barely be making it on the wages they get paid. It is all relative. Just like in any business.

Toni, <BR>Get to the airport early (2 hours before flight on international flights)and you will not get bumped.