Providence RI VS. St. Loius MO
 

If you had to live in one versus the other, which would you choose? Why?<BR><BR>Not similar, I know.<BR><BR>And I know this isn't a 'relo forum' (before someone gripes).<BR>But the discussion of pros and cons is definitely travel-related info.<BR><BR>Thanks for any constructive thoughts/opinions.

Partly depends on your income and what you value as far as city amenities.<BR>Where have you lived before?

Budget's not an issue.<BR>We would like to find someplace with more character than Phoenix, better restaurants than Salt Lake City, fair cost of living, good schools, acceptable crime rate.<BR>All the usual goals.

Providence by a mile!!!!<BR><BR>a gem in New England - underrated, understated and quite affordable - <BR><BR>Brown U. Prov College, RISD, lends to a good college atmosphere with some of the best Italian restaraunts around. The lighting of the fire pots in the canals in the summer at nite is a treat - and the housing is still quite reasonable for New England - with Boston 1hr away NYC 2 hours and Newport and the bay - ya got it all...<BR><BR>St Louis has:<BR>Crime<BR>Nelly <BR>and a big arch

Well &quot;tomberger&quot; you gave away N.E. best kept secret..Darrin it's the Providence area by a mile. Little towns that can be explored on weekends, fabulous restaurants and lovely little wineries.

Whoops...forgot...the closeness to Boston (about an hour away) and Block Island..

Providence, no contest. <BR><BR>Can't discuss pros and cons, cuz I can't think of any pros about St. L. Oh, perhaps the cost of living. Remember: you get what you pay for.

I have been accused of being a belover of Providence and it's true. Don't know a thing about St Louis Mo but born and raised and lived in Prov til 1999 when I had to relocate. Is it perfect? Ofcourse not and the people take a bit of getting used to but it is really a gem of a city. Small, conienent to get around though last time I visited I noticed traffic was getting bad everywhere. What I like about it is the vitality and variety of both the people and the buildings. I live in Durham NC now which is pleasant but just no spark. Prov has great resturants, lots of colleges, the ocean is less than an hour away. We also boast a &quot;colorful&quot; political history with the last mayor now in the Big House for racketeering and the new mayor is the son of a lawyer who represented the last big mob boss of the area!

Not trying to be snide or brusque, but strongly recommend you travel to each city -- I think the differences would jump out at you. St. Louis is a midwestern city with a strong southern accent, has had its struggles with stayin' alive and race relations but the pioneer spirit still is there. Providence is a raised-from-the-ashes northeastern enclave, whose history has taken it through Catholic and WASP eras of dominance and immigration, with sea-faring and Mediterranean (ethnic, not weather) touches. <BR><BR>I'd choose Providence in a second, but I've lived in the midwest and I don't fit in. If you are from outside the northeast, it's possible you'd feel more at home in St. Louis, although the level of sophistication is -- shall we way -- different.

You are sort of comparing apples and organges. As everyone here has said, Providence is a pleasant secret in the middle of the NY - Boston megalopolis. But don't be fooled from the ads for the eponymously named TV show: there is plenty of crime in Providence (including one of the most corrupt city governments in the country) and a fragile economy.<BR><BR>St. Louis is a quintessential rustbelt Midwestern city. It will feel provincial to many, but there are many pockets of sophistication. There are quaint small river towns, wineries, and other gems. St. Louis has recently become a hot spot for art (a number of top art museums), one of the finest zoos in the country (and it's free), a world class symphony and opera company (does Providence even have any arts or does one have to travel up to congested Boston).

Of course Providence has arts. It has the Trinity Rep - one of the finest regional theaters in the US (its won Tonys). It has RISD - the best art school in the country. There are a number of small museums. RISD and Brown keep the avante-gard alive and well in Providence. It really has just about everything a nice city should have - just in smaller quantities. You don't have to go to Boston for arts - its just nice to have it near by if you want to.<BR><BR>You want sports - Providence has sports. For Big East Basketball there's Providence College. For baseball there's the PawSox - the Red Sox's AAA team. For pro football, the Patriots play less than 30 minutes away. The minor league team for the Bruins are in Providence if you like hockey. Both Brown and PC sport pretty darn good hockey teams too.<BR><BR>And may I add the proximity to South County beaches - some of the prettiest beaches in the East. As well as Newport - I have more fun over the years in Newport than just about any other destination I can think of. Feel like going to the Cape or Nantucket or Martha's Vineyard or Block Island. You're there in less than 2 hours.<BR><BR>Providence is a great city but...(there's always a but). It is one of the most provincial cities around. Its all about who you are and who you know. Everyone's related - either by blood, marriage or otherwise. Personally, I like this but I'm used to it because I live in Boston and its the same here. This may not be your cup of tea.<BR><BR>

Some of the most thoughtful and informative posts I've read at this forum.<BR>Thanks very much to those who took the time to post.<BR>I really appreciate it, as this is a big decision for us.<BR><BR>My bias is for Providence as well, as the lifestyle (as best as I can tell) seems to suit us better.<BR><BR>It is emotionally wrenching to consider passing up the opportunity to live where Nelly was born and raised. Tomgerger obviously feels my pain.<BR><BR>OK, Collette, what is behind the statement &quot;...the people take a bit of getting used to..&quot;? I know the Northeastern attitude toward strangers and casual friendships is different than in the West and Midwest. Is that what you're referring to? Or is there another wrinkle in the fabric of the personality who have lived in Providence for a length of time?

Darrin - its all about how connected you are to the people you come in contact with. RIers want to know what parish you belong to (b/c everyone is Catholic or assumed to be), what high school you went to (Mount St. Charles? LaSalle?), where do you work? Once they've established all of this they start with &quot; oh my brother went to LaSalle, do you know so and so? &quot;oh my cousins go to St.Pius, they always go to the 10 o'clock Mass, you must know them&quot; &quot;oh you work at Fleet, my next door neighbor's third cousin's ex-wife works there. You must know her&quot; I have sat through so many of these conversations, listening to people struggling to come up with some connection, any connection, however remote between themselves and some one they have just met. Its like they don't want to really talk to you until they establish a reference point of some sort.<BR><BR>And no one ever leaves Rhode Island. Its kind of a statewide joke that if you were born there you'll die there. There once was a bill board on the highway in Providence advertising long distance service saying &quot; CALL EVERYONE YOU KNOW WHO HAS LEFT RHODE ISLAND (both of them )&quot; Too funny and very true. My sister-in-law is from RI and is one of 10 kids. All 9 others live within 20 minutes of each other. 8 of the 9 are married to other lifelong RIers. She lives in Boston - a whopping 45 minutes away and married someone from Mass. She's the &quot;daring&quot; one because she moved 45 minutes away. Its so funny. On the other hand they are the nicest people in the world. <BR><BR>And you should have heard the questions from the guy (originally from RI) in the office next to me when I told him my brother was marrying a girl from Prov. &quot;oh yeah, where she go to school, oh yeah her dad had a restaurant, didn't all those kids go to PC.&quot; He actually knew the family - barely - but made a big point of making the connection.<BR><BR>Sorry for the long winded post but you should know what the place is like.

&quot;I know the Northeastern attitude toward strangers and casual friendships is different than in the West and Midwest.&quot;<BR><BR>Let me tell you, as someone who has lived in both places, that the attitude toward strangers in the midwest is pretty chilly, and the preference in having friendships is for keeping them casual. In the northeast, friendships are slow to be made but once made, very close. The differences are otherwise less great than you'd think -- has more to do with whether the local people ever leave, have ever been &quot;strangers&quot; somewhere else, and whether they have a lot of family around (so they don't need so many social contacts) than whether you are in RI or MO.

As Nelly would say herre in this forum - it is a &quot;Dilemma&quot; <BR><BR><BR>But PVD has nothing comparable to East St Louis and that is a good thing<BR><BR>Most important - This is where most of &quot;Dumb and Dumber&quot; was filmed...you could beam with pride....<BR><BR>And we got the big blue bug on 95....<BR>

So are reports of all this crime in Providence overstating things?<BR>Or is that just a relative assessment, compared to quieter areas of New England like VT/NH/ME?

Darrin,<BR>Providence does have crime just like any other city. However, a gentleman by the name of Dean Esserman was just hired as Providence's new police chief and things seem to be looking up. He was the former police chief of Stamford CT. and under his leadership the crime rate in Stamford dropped significantly.<BR><BR>However, Providence does have other problems, such as the neglected neighborhoods surrounding the downtown area and the high taxes (the taxes are actually high in the whole state of RI). However, Providence has a newly elected mayor as well as a new governor on the state level so things are definitely looking up!

I'm not sure what exactly Providence's crime rate is. I would guess that the crime rate is lower there than in St. Louis. <BR><BR>I think you could find signs of gang activity (grafitti) in ANY city of significant size, including cities in &quot;quaint&quot; states like VT, NH, &amp; ME. <BR><BR>In the current economy the crimes of theft, robbery have increased. At least they have in Dallas. <BR><BR>What I'm trying to say, not very articulately after a night of disturbed sleep, is that I would be basing my decision primarily on the factors that people have mentioned thus far such as local cultural scene, restaurants, cost of living, proximity to major metropolitan areas and recreational areas and overall ambience.<BR><BR>There's my two cents, for what it's worth.<BR><BR>

definitely PROVIDENCE&gt;<BR><BR>You've got the ocean, skiing, mountains, fall leaves, a beautiful city, an actual downtown rather than a burned out hell hole, colleges, pretty architecture, proximity to major airports, museums, cities, and so forth. <BR><BR>

the crime in Providence is mostly organized. This means that corruption runs deep. This does not mean that the city is dangerous. Especially compared to soemplace like St. Louis. Walkign on the streets in Providence is a pleasure. Not scary. (most parts anyway)<BR><BR>East. SLouis is one of the toughest places on the planet.

If you go to Providence, will you know how/whatto eat? Will you eat quahogs, put gravy on your pasta, drink coffeemilk and know what is a bubbla? Since the whole state of Rhode Island takes about an hour to go from end to end, do you realize that your friends who might live on one side of Providence won't come to your house on the other side of PVD to visit because it's kinda far to travel. <BR>Buddy Cianci, the former mayor was just jailed for racketeering (I think it was that) charges.<BR>

I've been reading up on Providence tonight, &quot;pvd&quot;.<BR>Quahogs (pronounced &quot;ko-hogs&quot;) are local clams.<BR>Gravy on pasta is what westerners (and the rest of the world) call sauce.<BR>A &quot;bubblah&quot; is a water fountain, correct?<BR>Any others I've missed?<BR>

Rhode Island is the 2nd most densely populated state after New Jersey. This makes Providence, the state's largest city have it's share of pollution, crime and traffic.<BR><BR>

Hi Darrin, I was bored and went way back on the posts and say that you had directed a question back to me about the people in Providence may take some getting used to... I am a born and bred RIer but did leave the state9 not completely voluntarily I might add). I kive in NC now... where people wave to you when you are driving out of the development ( at first that drove me nuts) and when you ask someone a quetion they might go one for about 15 minutes before they get to the point. Oooh, I think I just did it myself. Anyway, when I go back to Prov to visit my husband insists the people are rude. He love NC people. I say , no the RI people are not rude... they are just not sweetie pie all the time and they have a much more wry and sarcastic sense of humor... ( hey, given the politics, I can't blame them). Hope that answered your question and let us know when you go visit.

Collette, we should do lunch. I'm born/bred Yankee transplanted to NC, and the slow, sweet-tea, honey-pie way of doing &quot;business&quot; took a fair amount of getting used to. Tell your husband that while Southerners think manners is the absolutely top virtue, to Northerners it can seem a thin mask for dishonesty and insincerity. Northerners value efficiency and loyalty over politesse -- for better or worse. When I go back &quot;home&quot; up north, I can see it with a Tar Heel's eyes and I'm aware of the brusqueness and lack of warmth, and I can miss the friendly atmosphere down here. When I get off the plane at RDU, I feel my muscles relax and I take a deep breath of the soft southern (humid) air. But when I go up north and get off the plane, I feel my mind quicken, I get energized, and I'm ready for adventure and stimulating interactions, as if I'd been dozing the whole time I'm down here.

PCM.... I hear you and as they say down here..&quot;I know that's right!. We actually almost moved back to RI?Boston area cause my husband lost his job. I had such mixed feelings.. I would have loved being back in the stilulation and physical beauty of NE but the circumstances were all wrong.. a not so great job and pay, a horrid commute on 128, we couldn't sell our house in NC and enen rents were sky high now in RI.. So, I am relieved he just found something here and we don't HAVE to move... I guess I just have to visit more often.. to bad there are no direct flights from RDU!!!

We've been in the Triangle for 10 years now, but we're about to have to think about whether to change jobs and move one more time before retirement. A lot of people retire here and I can certainly see why, but I'm still hankerin' to head back north, esp. since much of family is there. But not without a lot of reservations myself. I'd miss the climate quite a bit, esp. in the Feb-April miseries. I'd miss being able to walk into a first-run movie without having to strategize too much to get a seat. I'd miss affordable housing BIG time. I'd miss year-round flowers. I'd miss the &quot;'Mornin'&quot;-s I get from total strangers. I'd miss Duke's American Dance Festival. I'd miss A Southern Season in Chapel Hill, but I suppose in Prov., I'd find a great Portuguese/Italian market. <BR><BR>I wouldn't miss the good-old-boy politiks and some other aspects, both &quot;liberal&quot; and &quot;conservative,&quot; of the social and political scene here (quotations are on purpose -- neither faction fits the traditional definitions). I wouldn't miss having the only world-class classical music or jazz performances occurring every other year on a mid-week evening in February. I wouldn't miss the smiling insinuation by native-born Suthin Belle's that I still need to learn how to dress their way -- with pantihose and gloves on a 90-degree day. I wouldn't miss the obsession with collegiate sports. And I wouldn't miss the gratuitous, knee-jerk attacks on Northerners, as if that were a totally justified exception to the rule that manners surpass everything else in importance. <BR><BR>Well, Darrin -- you've probably learned more about NC than about Providence, but I think you'll find a lot to like about Providence, a certain amount to get used to, and a few things that will never sit right. Remember that you haven't even begun to understand a new environment when you've only lived there a year or two. Good luck!!!!

I can see that most of the posts here are from people who have no appreciation for the Midwest. St. Louis and St. Louis county are wonderful places to live. There are some areas of the city that you wouldn't want to go; however you can say that about any large city. St. Louis city and county are full of beautiful old neighborhoods. The topography is beautiful, but you are landlocked. As far as culture, you have the Muny outdoor opera, Fox Theatre, Forrest Park Museum to name a few. There are great restaurants and winerys. And, like most places, the people are as friendly to you as you are to them. St. Louis has hot summers and cold winters. So, if I were you, I would visit both places and then make up your own mind.

Though it serves only as a base for discussion and not much else, I was just looking thru the Places Rated Almanac.<BR>St. Louis ranked in the 30's (top 360 cities in the US) and Providence was 101 as I recall.

STL is a toilet<BR><BR>PVD has charm and grace - not even close<BR><BR>as for the northern &quot;attitude&quot;<BR><BR>takes a year or so to get used to (trust me - transplanted midwesterner)<BR>but after that it is as normal as anything...<BR><BR>and don't forget...<BR><BR>Prov is home of &quot;Dumb and dummer&quot;

Well, honestly I can't answer the question of where is the best palce to live, for you and your family. I see that the general leanings on the board are far towards Providence, which I know little about. It seems nice enough.<BR><BR>Just hoping to give a fairer look at things from the St. Louis side (my hometown is in the area) than what many here have displayed. I doubt many have more than a 2 day bit of knowledge about the city. Southern? Please... I live in the south now. It's not even close.<BR><BR>St. Louisans are really bad at self-promotion of their city, and agreeably, some parts are rough. Downtown could use an infusion of streetlife. However... there are some pluses -<BR><BR>Good schools in most areas<BR>Low cost of living<BR>Great zoo - Free<BR>Good Art Museum - Free<BR>One of the top Science Centers - free<BR>Missouri Botanical Gardens - best Japanese Gardens in the US - $3<BR>Cahokia Mounds - pre-historic archeological site<BR>Laumeier Sculpture Park<BR>Grants Farm - Free place to take the kids all day to see the Clydesdales, petting zoo, tram ride through the wildlife park (in the middle of the burbs)<BR><BR>And do keep in mind that crime statistics are a little misleading. In St. Louis, the crime is fairly centered in a few well known areas, but that fact skews the stats. I lived in the immediate area for 40 years. Only once do I know of any one personally who was the victim of any crime. That was a snatch and run petty theft. You would think after 40 years, I'd have seen more than that, since I traveled around the city daily for a living, no?<BR><BR>Just do your research and visit both with a mind for what suits you. I'm sure both cities have their advantages.<BR>Here, people are going to promote what they know, just like I have.<BR><BR>

I've never been to Providence, but have heard it's beautiful - and recently cleaned up by the organized crime! not sure if that's a good or bad thing.<BR><BR>As for St Louis, my sister plays in their symphony, and she's very happy there. Like any other city, there are pockets of not-so-great areas just like anywhere else. <BR><BR>Isn't East St Louis technically in IL??!! It's not near St. Louis, MO at all.

Ashliegh,<BR><BR>Yes, exactly. St. Louis and East St. Louis are that far apart geographically, but they are separated by much more than the Mississippi and state lines.<BR><BR>Throwing East St. Louis in with St. Louis proper is as uninformed as assuming that Manhattan and Passaic, New Jersey were the same place.<BR><BR>By the way, your sister's symphony is wonderful! Been too long since I've been back to hear them though. I don't usually read the US board, but was a little homesick and thought that the STL bashing was a bit much.<BR><BR>Formerly from the land of...<BR><BR>Nelly<BR>+<BR>Mark Twain<BR>Vincent Price<BR>TS Eliot<BR>Tina Turner<BR>John Goodman<BR>Phyllis Diller<BR>Eugene Fields<BR>Josephine Baker<BR>Kevin Kline<BR>Bob Costas<BR>Chuck Berry<BR>Tenessee Williams<BR>etc.

Providence because it's the only place in the U.S. where you can get an AwfulAwful.

I BEG your pardon -- I believe you can get an AwfulAwful (Awful Big, Awful Good double thick milkshake) anywhere there's a Friendly's, which is most of the northeast!<BR><BR>I think this thread has to be one of the weirder &quot;either-or&quot; questions we've seen on this board. My vote would also be for Providence, but that would be because of the things I like about Providence (many of the advantages of a NE city, e.g. proximity to ocean, culture, history -- without the level of congestion, etc. of others, and also it's pretty), _not_ because I'm in a hurry to trash St. Louis.