A few things need to be cleared up:<BR><BR>1. The first post from MissJannanyc: though everything you quote is basically true (except the airport choice - that's wrong, you most definitely can pick the airport for air travel), what's WRONG with that? As long as you understand the rules, you can save a lot of money using Priceline. If you're not willing to live with the drawbacks of a cheap Priceline air ticket (possible inconvenient arrival/departure times, bad routings, etc.) then DON'T USE PRICELINE. If you can't understand Priceline's rules and restrictions, DON'T USE PRICELINE. The rest of us who do know how it works can make the judgement of whether saving some money is worth the drawbacks and make our bids on that basis.<BR><BR>2. Priceline almost certainly does take in the difference between what they pay for the hotel room/airline ticket/rental car for and what the customer bids. If you bid $80 and Priceline paid $30, what's wrong with Priceline pocketing the difference? How is that different from a car dealer selling you a car at a higher price than they paid for it? Do you get upset if you learn the car dealer paid $5000 less than you paid for it? Isn't this how capitalism works?<BR><BR>Priceline's $5.95 fee per room isn't going to keep them in business. Yes, they make money selling stuff at higher prices than they paid for it - like any other for-profit business.<BR><BR>You can patronize Priceline or not. Go ahead and pay 2X-3X more for a room at the same hotel - I don't care.<BR><BR>3. (gail): BiddingForTravel.com and their "Priceline links": BFT is currently an affiliate of Amazing-Bargains.com. BiddingForTravel is not a charity - their web site costs MONEY to run. The people running BFT spend lots of their time to maintain it - do you expect them do so for free? Would you work at a job for free? <BR><BR>BFT gets a little something each time a customer places a successful bid through their Priceline links. That HELPS KEEP THE WEB SITE FREE for you to use. What's the problem with that?<BR><BR>If you use BFT but intentionally do not use their links to bid, then you're ripping them off. If enough people do what you are doing, then either BFT will disappear or it will cost a fee to use. Which would you prefer?<BR><BR>Andrew<BR>

Mea Culpa. I had a semester's course on Priceline bidding rolled into one night last night. Very interesting! The bidding structure is incredibly complex, and though some bids will be right on the money and the hotel will receive everything, there are also some where Priceline takes a piece--not an enormous chunk, thanks to the structuring, but a piece. You will not have a situation where the lowest acceptable bid is $30, someone bids $80 and Priceline sweeps the remaining 50 into its pocket. It's a few dollars, so Priceline takes some from you the bidder, and some from the provider, fair enough, and it still works to everyone's advantage.<BR><BR>The problem arises with places like BFT because (andrew, and this is the WSJ research) "the site started with the explicit promise that it wouldn't disclose winning bids for hotels and airline tickets" and that bids were to be blind as to the hotel or airline. They acknowledge that their agreement with the providers prohibits revealing winning bids, which made their sponsoring and paying a fee for each referral from a site that did precisely that (bft) a violation of that agreement. The relationship with BFT was supposedly severed after that article, however, I see in looking in the site, you can link right to it! Someone has to support bft yes, but perhaps it should be that customer, not the person (company) who has an agreement with providers which states that they will NOT disclose winning bids, to say nothing of attmepts at circumventing the opacity of the bidding system. Its a violation of the spirit and intent of the agreement with their providers. <BR><BR>Another misconception is that Priceline buys a number of rooms, pays the provider then resells if they can. They have *access* to a certain number of rooms in inventory, but do not buy hoping to resell (and possibly getting stuck with them). The number of ours they have access to currently is 0, happily--and a full hotel is a wonderful thing! Hopefully, things are looking a little better (for us all)! <BR><BR>I personally could never use them for airline tickets, having no patience with plane changes and layovers. It's worth the money to me to get a direct flight or a minimal layover on as direct a route as possible, to say nothing of being able to chose my airline. Just my choice.<BR><BR>Even hotels though, where you can choose areas within a location...eh...just couldn't do it, personally, for the most part. A city like NYC or SF, perhaps, but if I'm headed off on vacation, nope--the "I want" list is too long and specific to throw my hat into a pile.<BR><BR>For us, in the meantime, it works, for the most part, and will as long as the economy doesn't, and we *all* have to hope that that doesn't continue!!<BR><BR>

This has got to be the most useful and constructive Priceline thread on Fodors, ever!

I must agree with Jen that this has been a very constructive thread. Hopefully, a fair number of people will read through this and reach an understanding of the fundamental issues. I don't have knowledge of the issues re/the BFT website and their severed relationship with Priceline but I value the many great free resources on the Internet and recognize that somehow, somewhere, someone has to pay to keep them afloat whether it's through advertising, linkns or something else. Like Olive Oyl, I sometimes have specifics needs and desires when traveling and the unpredictability of PL is unsuitable - I use it for those circumstances in which it's appropriate. As far I'm concerned, it's a win-win-win situation. The hotels that have good methods for predicting occupancy rates can generate revenue for rooms that would otherwise likely remain unsold on certain dates, PL makes some revenue and travelers have a chance to either save money or else pay the same and stay in a nicer place. Chains like Hilton, Hyatt and Marriott that may have rarely ever gotten my $$ in the past are now seeing me as a gguest on repeat occasions. I get to stay in nicer properties and they get some reveneu - that works for me.

OliveOyl, I can't say for sure that Priceline gets all the profit if customer bids $80 for a room PL paid only $30. Could they be giving the hotel a kickback? Perhaps. All I know for sure is that the tax you pay on a Priceline hotel bid is the tax on the rate Priceline is paying the *hotel*. If you bid $80 for a room and Priceline paid only $30, you pay tax only on the $30. I have even seen a receipt given to me by Marriott by mistake, clearly showing the lower price paid by Priceline and the tax on that that is the same Priceline collected from me up front. If Priceline gives the hotel a kickback that is not taxed, perhaps the local governments that are losing this tax revenue will be upset?<BR><BR>But this is a moot point to argue until someone can state for sure how much of the overbid Priceline can claim as profit. I highly doubt they split it with the hotel - I'm guessing they keep almost all of it or just give the hotel some future incentive if enough rooms are sold.<BR><BR>As for what BiddingForTravel's relationship was with Priceline and is now, all I have to ask is: WHY DO YOU CARE? How is this relevant to the customer? It's not to me. I get accurate information from BiddingForTravel. I know they get some small compensation when I make a successful bid through their links - and I hope this helps keep them around. Does Priceline give them some kickback as a result? Who cares? I'm not sure why you do. This is a red herring.<BR><BR>Why are people worried that the people running BFT are somehow profiting from their hard work? I wish they were making lots of money from BFT, but I doubt they are making much more than the costs to keep the site up and some small compensation for their time investment. I cannot for the life of me understand why people who can use a service (BFT) **FOR FREE** that can save them money are worried about people making money from it!!!<BR><BR>All customers should care about is whether they are getting satisfactory prices for hotel rooms (or airline tickets or rental cars). I can tell you for a fact that BiddingForTravel has saved me a lot of money on hotels in the past year and that I would never have used Priceline without BFT. I'm happy because I'm saving money, Priceline should be happy because they have a new, regular customer they wouldn't have had otherwise, and the hotels are happy because they are filling rooms that would have been empty. <BR><BR>And - obviously - if you are picky about Hotel location or type or amenities, by all means do NOT use Priceline. But a lot of travelers simply want a clean, comfortable, centrally located hotel when they travel, and without Priceline they'd take the hotel with the best price anyway if it meets their basic needs. Priceline (and BFT) can save this type of traveler a lot of money.<BR><BR>Andrew<BR>

Andrew, admittedly I've only skim read your post as we are on our way out for the weekend so I'm pressed for time.<BR><BR>You missed my point from my previous note, but it may not have been clear to you what my perspective was unless you've read previous notes from me, including the first of mine in this thread, and rather than restate my point here, please re-read that second paragraph, but from the standpoint of the provider, not the bidder. That relationship is the problem and trust me, it is one. And I care, because WE are the providers who signed the agreement with Priceline in which they agreed to sell excess inventory in *blind bids* and would *not* divulge winning bids. That is the only way the system works from this perspective! My husband runs a hotel that uses Priceline to sell unused inventory when we have it. *We* are sitting on the other side of your coin. You don't care if lowest bids are divulged, absolutely, except from the standpoint that the providers, and some have, will pull out and others, seeing what is happening, just raise that rate. This was not the agreement signed with Priceline however, in fact it was specifically prohibited, and if they then turn around and pay someone else to divulge the information for them, they are operating contrary to the terms of the agreement. I realize you don't care, but it does jeopardize providers participation as well as the best possible rates for you. Even BFT can be a two way street, neither one quite fair, though, I think you'll agree, nor in the spirit that Priceline intended the process to be, initially!<BR><BR>As for differences between lowest bid the hotel will accept, what customer bid, and who gets what, I'm absolutely certain of my facts. As I said, I had a course last night, straight from the horse's mouth. The hotel structures their pricing tiers and in our case, we'll lose a rather insignificant amount of the bid, if any. Not $50--nowhere even close to that! No, there are no kickbacks--at least not to hotels! As I said in the note prior to this, it is an extremely complex pricing system and each hotel determines their own. I know how ours is set up now, but can't speak for anyone else. Am sure most of the majors use a system similar, if not identical, to ours.<BR><BR>Hope this makes sense and that I've answered your question, "WHY DO YOU CARE?" (:&gt;)...am dashing it off with no time to edit. My apologies if I misread yours, but I believe you did mine as well.<BR>

OK, OliveOyl, so you and your husband run a hotel that chooses to use Priceline. And you're upset because you think Priceline is in cahoots with BiddingForTravel, which reveals prices people paid and the hotels and brand names Priceline customers are getting. So you're worried because people will bid using Priceline instead of booking directly with you (and thus you lose money). Do I have this right?<BR><BR>In that case - it is up to you whether you continue to use Priceline, right? Why not stop using Priceline if it is not working out for you? When you end your relationship with Priceline, why not let them know that this is the reason you are terminating the relationship?<BR><BR>If it really matters to you, as I understand it (I am 99% sure) Priceline is *NOT* affiliated with BiddingForTravel anymore. BiddingForTravel does get something if you use their link through Amazing-Bargains.com, but that is a separate company as far as I know. <BR>And I'm not sure why you would have a problem with *that*.<BR><BR>But again, I ask - what does it matter? Priceline, as I understand it, could not stop a web site like BiddingForTravel from existing even if they wanted to. Free country, right? How would being affiliated with Priceline really help BiddingForTravel anyway?<BR><BR>And I think you worry too much. My belief about many Priceline hotel customers (me included) is that they are not the type who would normally pay "standard" rates anyway. Instead, I think they are spending about as much on Priceline for a decent hotel in town as they used to spend on a Motel 6 out in the suburbs. Priceline isn't necessarily saving me money - it's just getting me a much nicer place in a better location. The people who should be unhappy about this are the Motel 6's and Econo Lodges. If I get a room via Priceline at your hotel, you may not make much from my stay, but you make more than if I was at the Motel 6, right?<BR><BR>And anyone out who uses Priceline can figure out what Priceline paid for the room simply from the tax charged - BiddingForTravel is not needed for that.<BR><BR>I'm still not certain about the amount of "overbid" that would go to the hotel, if any. Certainly the hotel does not get all of it. Priceline CANNOT survive from a $5.95 per room booking fee! I'm sure your husband sets the rates Priceline pays for given blocks of rooms, but once that rate is set, I don't see the mechanism ("kickback") for paying part of the overbid back to the hotel. Again - I'd have to see specifics of how this works to convince me.<BR><BR>Andrew<BR>

Andrew - of course I would not work for free (unless you consider the volunteer work I do working for free). But I also choose not to do business at places with rude employees - and I find the moderators/owner of BFT consistently rude and condescending to posters (not me - I refuse to post there). So I will window shop there, but not do business with them.

Gail, if the people working at your hotel are rude to me, do I have a right to steal your towels? If "window shopping" at BiddingForTravel means you read the messages and use this information to bid on Priceline but do not use their affiliate links, because you find the moderators rude...that's like stealing the towels.<BR><BR>Andrew

I've been reading this thread for a few days now, and have decided to also include my opinions. I've been using Priceline for about a year, and first used it when I was making a trip to NYC and a friend suggested that I look at the Bidding for Travel site for assistance with formulating a bid on Priceline. <BR><BR>Believe me, the assistance that BFT gives can be confusing the first time you bid in a city that has a lot of zones. But the rules are written so that they don't have to hold your hand, and to make you a better bidder. I was able to comprehend "free rebid zones" and bidding one zone at a time very easily. However, overbidding was confusing me. I think the frustrations lie in a couple of areas. First, Sheryl and the other administrators are really answering the same questions over and over again, and that gets mundane and boring. Imagine if you had to do that. Better yet, picture the "I Love Lucy" show where Lucy and Ethel are working at the chocolate factory and they are dipping chocolates. When the conveyor belt is moving at a slow pace they have no problems, but when in speeds up a calamity occurs. The same goes for the moderators at the BFT site, although it is a free service, the questions after all of these years are mundane to them, and they don't want to be doing a lot of hand holding, and therefore sometimes they get snippy when people don't read the rules in advance or understand them. Maybe as an adjunct service to BFT, they should charge a small fee for them to formulate your bids if you want your hand held. Also, the moderators liked to be acknowledged for their advice. After completing the answers on the FAQ, the moderators do give advice about bidding. They have become masters at it. But they want to be responded to, and the information that is given by the initial queriers only provides additional good information to other bidders. Imagine if you did someone a favor or loaned them something, and that person just walked off taking the service, advice or item and you were acknowledged. You'd be a bit peeved too. But, the moderators have to realize that many people that use the BFT site and Priceline are novices. They do come to BFT for hand holding, and they don't want to be reprimanded for not understanding. No one wants to be treated like an adolescent and made to feel stupid. I do think that the moderators could work on their "tone" when they write, as they do at times come off as abrupt, but I think that most of us that use the site understand where their frustrations are coming from. Also, I think the FAQs should be rewritten, possibly with examples so that the novice can get a grasp on how to make a successful bid.<BR><BR>

Now onto BFT, Amazing Bargains and the link to Priceline. Anyone that owns a website can create a hyperlink to another website. It's very simple to do, and it saves the user a lot of time. Creating the hyperlink sets up a counter, so the administrators of both the departing and receiving websites know where their hits are going to/coming from. You don't need permission from a website to set up a hyperlink. Think of how many people here have websites/homepages that link to Fodors. Fodors doesn't give permission to each administrator. But BFT and Amazing Bargains have an arrangement, and it is a financial one. You have to remember that Amazing Bargains does not sell anything, it is just an enormous consolidator of other businesses advertisements. If you don't use the hyperlink from the BFT site to get to Priceline, you are only gyping yourself out of any free discounts on Priceline. For example, there is now a promotion going on for $10 discounts for airline tickets bids on Priceline. If you are bidding on airline tickets, by using the link, Priceline will add a FREE $10 to your bid by using the link. If people like Gail want to stand on ceremony because they don't like the moderators at BFT, and they don't want to use the link, they are only losing money free money. I don't think of Gail as "stealing" per se, she is browsing at BFT. It's really no different than looking at a book in a bookstore to find a piece of information and then not buying the book. But, if Gail did post a query at BFT and received assistance, but did not use the link to Priceline, then that is inappropriate. BFT appears to be a hobby for the moderators. There is no way that they can be making a lot of money from that site to sustain a living, although we don't know how many people are using the hyperlinks and not posting questions or winning bids on BFT. I would have to guess that Amazing Bargains pays BFT a monthly fee for so many "hits".<BR><BR>In regard to what a hotel is paid versus what Priceline makes really doesn't matter to the bidder. As long as the bidder is happy with their winning bid and knows that it is less than the best discounted price that they have found, the bidder is walking away a happy camper, as long as the bidder knows what s/he is in for. You are going into this process bidding somewhat blindly for services. But you can cut down the uncertainty by doing your homework. I would think for rental cars, it doesn't make any difference which rental car company a specific sized car comes from, as long as you get the price you want. For hotels, it may not make much difference as long as you get the star level, as the bidding zones are pretty distinct, but then I can only make that statement based on the hotels in the Massachusetts and NYC areas that I am familiar with. When I bid, do I care that I stay at a Hyatt, Sheraton or Hilton if they are all in the same area -- absolutely not, but I do care about the price that I pay. Do I care that I can't get a refund if I have to cancel my trip - well I know when making my bid that if it is accepted and I can't make the trip that I am the one that has to pay the penalty. But then that's what this is all about, its a bit of a gamble, but when I've paid as little as $38 for a room that has a rack rate of $295 I'm willing to take that chance. How many times have you bought tickets to a sporting event, show or concert, and then an emergency arises and you can't use the tickets or sell them quickly to someone else? I myself just took advantage of a ticket to "The Producers" in NYC that someone could not use at the last minute.<BR><BR>

I do think that buying airline tickets through Priceline is a big gamble, as you don't have any flexibility with the flights, and can lose up to 2 travel days on flights in North America and the Caribbean Islands. When you bid, you know up front that you might have to make a connection, and that you might have up to a 2 hour layover between flights, but 2 hours isn't that much when the airlines will tell you that a safe connection time is 1 hour. But, for flights in North America you can at least eliminate red-eye flights if you so desire.<BR><BR>However, bidding for flights to Europe is a no-brainer. For example, except for a few flights to London that depart in the morning, all of the other flights to destinations in Europe depart in the late afternoon and evening from the west coast, and for returns to the US they depart in the morning and early afternoon. Whether I get a ticket through Priceline, another consolidator, search engine such as Orbitz, Travelocity or Expedia, or direct from the airline I know that flights depart from the US in the late afternoon or evening.<BR><BR>Saying all of that, I do have a ticket to London for November travel, that I bought on Priceline in August. Even today, I cannot beat the price of $279 RT, and I'm about $100 ahead now, although it was closer to $400 when I made my decision to go to London. I don't have a direct flight, and I have to depart from Boston 2 hours earlier than I normally would, as I have to fly via Toronto. But the return is better than I expected, as I depart from London in the late afternoon instead of in the morning. I've got 5 extra hours in London. <BR><BR>Anyway, I have used Priceline a number of times for myself and for friends. None of us have been disappointed, because we went into the process with our eyes wide open. My friends from the UK that were in New England for 2 weeks sightseeing, saved at least 2/3 of the cost on hotels based on the rack rates. Would they have stayed in 3 and 4 star hotels during their vacation had they not bid on Priceline? Yes, but they would not have paid the rack rates, and probably stayed in better hotels through Priceline than what they would have booked on their own. Were they pleased with Priceline - absolutely, but it was a time consuming process, but saving a couple of thousand dollars was well worth the time they invested.<BR><BR>Overall, I will continue to use Priceline when it is to my advantage. I don't care how Priceline and BFT make their money as long as I am content and getting a good value for my money. <BR>

Oops, I meant to say that most flights depart from the EAST COAST in the late afternoon and evening to Europe.<BR><BR>I should have proofed what I wrote before posting. Jeez, I wish that Fodors would enchance this site and create an edit function.