Auduchamp, thanks for reposting almost my entire post and then agreeing with the bulk of it. I'm not too sure what your point is otherwise. We both agree that Roberto Passon is NOT a destination restaurant. That WAS my point. But if someone is staying in the "neighborhood" and is doing theatre in the "neighborhood" then it is a great restaurant to have pre or post theatre dining in without getting in a cab and trekking halfway across the city. Surely there are some nights you prefer to eat in your own neighborhood than take a taxi across town for a "special" meal?

Of course, there is little reason for a local New Yorker living in Tribeca or the East Village to head up to the theatre district to eat especially when not even going to the theatre--but there are a whole lot of reasons for a tourist staying in that area and seeing a show in that area to eat in that area. There are bad restaurants there, good restaurants there, and a couple of fantastic restaurants there. For someone from out of town, there is an amazing amount of good dining when you include the entire midtown area, including Hell's Kitchen, without having to travel far and worrying about curtain times, transportation back, and traffic jams.

And your listing of a couple of real tourist joints as places that get recommended a lot although there are much better choices, I totally agree with.

You also said, "Second, on this board and others I see the same restaurants being recommended by those who have visited NYC. These are often in the tourist areas."

Duh. Of course. Why wouldn't people recommend good restaurants they've been to that are convenient to where they are staying and convenient for what they are doing (particularly theatre which limits travel time and dining times)? Do you honestly think that when someone has a couple hours between seeing a matinee and an evening show, they want to get in a taxi or subway and travel half way across the city to eat somewhere else and then get back? Frankly that would be silly in my opinion, unless there is some really amazing place that they have a reason to travel for. Just to go to a neighborhood restaurant that is no better nor no worse than one they can easily walk to, would frankly just seem like a waste of time and adding a lot of "pressure".

Even if somone is coming for a matinee, every train except the Lex has two stops in the theatre district and there are cabs. There are fabulous Korean restaurants in the thirites and on 8th Avenue between 14 and 23rd Streets there are more restaurants than street lights.

Between the Finacial District and midtown there is a world of restaurnts.

According to the League of American Theatres and Producers, 65% of Broadway tickets are sold to tourists. Thus there is a cultural difference between tourists and those who live in the NYC Metro area. And to change subjects dramtically, visitors should also be encouraged to see off-Broadway shows, readings, muusic, and other cultural events that might not be available in their hoem town.

"According to the League of American Theatres and Producers, 65% of Broadway tickets are sold to tourists."

Wow. I'm surprised. Considering there are "only" 1,537,195 people living in Manhattan, but last year there were 43.8 million visitors, I would have expected the percentage of tourists buying the tickets to be much higher. What your statistic shows is that a lot more "locals" go to Broadway shows than I would have expected.

Regarding encouraging seeing Off-Broadway plays, concerts, lectures, etc. -- I agree wholeheartedly, but ironically your reasoning is a bit off to me. Many of us have world class town hall or lecture series in our home towns that rival and sometimes surpass what's available in NYC, and regional orchestras can be fantastic. Many of us have access at home to amazingly good regional and even community theatres which often rival many off Broadway productions. But what MOST of us don't have is the really big fantastic Broadway shows. Even the national tours generally pale in comparison to their Broadway originals. I've been amused by several recent trip reports here that mention people who have seen the National tour of the Radio City Music Hall Christmas show in Atlanta or Miami or somewhere, but were blown away by it in NYC -- yep it just isn't the same. So while I agree people should do other things as well (especially some off Broadway theatre instead of just Broadway), the fact of the matter is that many travel to NYC for the main purpose of seeing Broadway shows because that's one thing we can't get at home.

On the other hand, I don't really expect most New Yorkers to understand that last point. In fact, most of them really can't understand why anyone would travel to NYC and spend time in Times Square. The answer is that it is unlike anything most of us have at home -- and that's why we travel -- to see what we can't get at home. A New Yorker has that on his doorstep all the time and often hates the very sight of all that glitz and traffic and crowds, so they seek quiet neighborhoods. We mainly live in quiet neighborhoods, so if we're spending big bucks to travel, we want what we don't have at home. But again, I don't expect many New Yorkers to "get" that.

Wow. I'm surprised. Considering there are "only" 1,537,195 people living in Manhattan, but last year there were 43.8 million visitors, I would have expected the percentage of tourists buying the tickets to be much higher

Even I do have not such a Manhattancentric view of the world. There are another 6.5 million in the other boroughs and there are 17 million people in the NYC Metro Area. They are not considered visitors. So for many it is a short car, bus, or train ride.

I have been to the ten largest cities in America, except San Antonio, some many times, and none including LA and Chicago have the variety and number of cultural events that are available in NYC. Of course there are lectures, music, regional theatre, etc. but nothing like there is here. The two closest are probably DC and Boston.

It is just plain silly to think if someone lives downtown that he or she would not travel to another part of the City to eat or go to a show. There is no such thing as the Lower East Side Philharmonic. Well there might be but it is probably in a basement.


Each week Time Out New York, among others, list the free events and if there are leass than 200, it is unuusal. On the first of every month both Barnes and Nobles and Borders print where writers will be giving a reading for that month. Add to that the smaller bookstores, libraries, art galleries, and other unexpected venues for readings and your argument evaporates. And we have not spoken of music, art galleries, theaters, indie movies, lectures, and museum exhibits.

Rather presumtuous, no?

Auduchamp, you seem to be having an argument with yourself, certainly not with me.

You seem to miss the points I make.

One is that of course one CAN travel away from where he is staying and where he is seeing a show, but there really is no reason to HAVE to do that. Just as people staying on the upper East side or in the financial district invariably and logically ask for restaurants convenient to them, so people in midtown would just as soon have restaurants convenient to them. Get it? And again, I'm not talking about traveling to another part of the city for some really special restaurant or like your example a special cuisine like Korean, but rather when someone wants a reasonably good meal with good service and not make a big deal out of it, why wouldn't he PREFER a restaurant within walking distance or where he is rather than one he has to travel to and from? One of the greatest things about New York is that there are good as well as great restaurants almost anywhere. If you wanted a Starbucks, why would you get in a train and travel 4 miles when there is one right across the street? If you want a nice "neighborhood type" Italian dinner at reasonable prices, why travel half way across the city to go to a typical neighborhood one, if Roberto Passon is a block away and just as good and is very similar?

And nobody is arguing that there aren't many, many more cultural events in New York than in our home towns, but that was TOTALLY NOT the point. The point was that at home most of us do have SOME choices of concerts, lectures, and other events that really are just as good as in New York, but what we DON'T have is Broadway shows of the same calibre. Get it yet?

So now we're talking 17 million New Yorkers compared to 43.8 million visitors. Thanks for re-empasizing my point. That a surprising number of New Yorkers DO go to the theatre. In fact with New Yorkers making 35% of the Broadway ticket buyers, they apparently go in a greater proportion than their numbers would suggest compared to the number of tourists.

Although frankly, I'm really not sure how all those figures are determined. One only needs to look at Craigslist or Ebay and see thousands and thousands of theatre tickets bought by "New York residents who happen to be scalpers" who are selling them to tourists.
But then it wouldn't be unusual for local people NOT to take advantage of the very things that other people travel to that place specifically to see or do.

And you made this comment:
"It is just plain silly to think if someone lives downtown that he or she would not travel to another part of the City to eat or go to a show. There is no such thing as the Lower East Side Philharmonic. Well there might be but it is probably in a basement."
Yes, that is totally silly. But whom are you talking to? I certainly never made even a vague reference to such a preposterous idea. If you are stating that in reference to my "surely there are some nights you prefer to eat in your own neighborhood than take a taxi across town for a "special" meal?" -- then you really totally didn't comprehend what I was saying!

You are right I do not understand your arguments. Whatever I say it hepls your argument. So you are right whatever you are saying.

As far as how it is determined what percentage of Broadway show goers are tourists, please take that up with the League of American Theatres and Producers. I am sure they are incorrect and whatever their answer will be will also help your argument.

We stayed at the Benjamin 2 months ago, though dined pretty casual so I don't have a dinner recommendation. We really enjoyed our prix fixe lunch at Montparnasse a couple blocks away.

Auduchamp, now you're just being silly. The only thing that seems to make sense in your last post is that you don't understand my arguments. You clearly don't. You seem to want to claim that I say no one who lives in New York goes to the theatre or no one who lives in New York should ever leave their neighborhood, or some such things. Every time I make a statement you try to make a statement in rebuttal that has absolutely nothing to do with the point I've just made.

When I explain that many of us have other activities at home similar to many of those in the city, your rebuttal is to say that NYC has MORE of those activities. Huh? No argument there, but what does that have to do with the main point I was making that tourists are more likely to choose Broadway shows (musicals in particular) BECAUSE they don't have those of the same caliber at home? When I say tourist staying and attending Broadway shows in the theatre district are likely to want a restaurant they can walk to, your "rebuttal" is that people in other parts of New York go out of their neighborhoods. Huh? Of course they do, what does that have to do with anything?

As to the theatre statistics -- I have not questioned them in the least. I merely said they surprised me as I always would have suspected the number of all tickets sold to Broadway show to residents of New York City would be considerably less than 35%. What makes you think that I suspect their figures are wrong? Is admitting surprise the same to you as insisting that they are wrong? Your attempt at sarcasm on that point makes no sense since I've not even questioned the validity of the statistics, unless you're referring to my comment about scalpers. But who would deny that fact?

The bottom line is that you keep making a lot of statements that I totally agree with, but you seem determined to want to disagree with anything I say, even though you change the subject rather than give a reason to disagree with what I'm talking about.

Neo wrote:

Although frankly, I'm really not sure how all those figures are determined. One only needs to look at Craigslist or Ebay and see thousands and thousands of theatre tickets bought by "New York residents who happen to be scalpers" who are selling them to tourists.
But then it wouldn't be unusual for local people NOT to take advantage of the very things that other people travel to that place specifically to see or do.

And then she wrote:
As to the theatre statistics -- I have not questioned them in the least. I merely said they surprised me as I always would have suspected the number of all tickets sold to Broadway show to residents of New York City would be considerably less than 35%. What makes you think that I suspect their figures are wrong?

Maybe it was the line "Although frankly, I'm really not sure how all those figures are determined."


I have already conceded that you are right I do not know what you are talking, what more do you want.

Sorry. First of all I'm a he.

Secondly, I did not question the statistics themselves. I did question how they are determined and if they mean that the tickets are PURCHASED by New Yorkers as opposed to they are USED by New Yorkers. I doubt there is any real way to determine the difference between those two things, which is why I mentioned the scalper issue. Like all statistics, they can be viewed in different ways. But in any case I have no idea what that statistic had to do with picking out a restaurant anyway, nor why we got onto that subject in this thread.

And as for your now "innocently" proclaimed statement that you have already said I am right, I assume you are referring to your amazingly sarcastic and condescending "please take that up with the League of American Theatres and Producers. I am sure they are incorrect and whatever their answer will be will also help your argument."

If that's what you mean by "I have already conceded that you are right" then your attitude and comments speak volumes. Sorry, I won't resort to such a level. I was only trying to have an adult and logical discussion here, not get into a battle of sarcasm. You win that one.

Enough of the non New Yorkers vs the New Yorkers arguments pls! The answer for a "splurge" option is The River Cafe on Water Street underneath the Brooklyn Bridge- went there Christmas Day and it was fantastic! Pls check out their website. Men are required to wear jackets and they have the most fantastic chocolate Brooklyn Bridge dessert- yum! Views are awesome.

Hooray for Miss Mandy! And listen, I just got back from an amazing early dinner just OUTSIDE of New York - take a short train ride from Grand Central to Tarrytown, NY, then a $7, 5-minute, taxi ride to: Blue Hill at Stone Barns (in the old Rockefeller Estate "dairy barn." What an amazing meal, in the tradition of Alice Waters - - - mostly locally raised products. I started with a sublime beet/chevre/walnut salad - the best I ever had, followed by pumpkin tortellini, pork with celeriac, finishing up with a quince dessert topped with honeycomb and fromage blanc sorbet. The country setting is lovely, on a hill among acres of open land. For two, with 1 glass of wine ($18), sparkling water, and coffee, the total came to $230 with at 20% tip. And celebrity spotting, too!

Yes Lilricky, Blue Hill at Stone Barns is terrific, and so is the first restaurant opened by the same chef, Dan Barber - Blue Hill, which is on Washington Pl. near 6th Avenue in the West Village.

Another suggestion for the OP might be Country - incredibly good food in a wonderful, grown up setting. There is also the more reasonably priced Cafe at Country - relaxed atmosphere and upscale comfort food. It's in the Carlton Hotel on Madison Avenue and 29th Street.

Claire, since you've sparked such a vibrant thread, be sure to report back about your experience!

I like Country, too, and the Carlton on Madison (lobby by David Rockwell) is one of my favorite moderately-priced hotels in that part of town. I do not recommend the Cafe at Country, however, as it is noisy. (And definitely not for breakfast, as it costs a fortune! ) One nice thing to do is to go to the bar area just outside the 2nd-floor Country restaurant for cocktails and heavy hors-doeuvres.

WOW, guys! Thanks so much for your help and I've very much enjoyed the discussions, too. Only wish we had more than one night in NYC to try some of the many promising places named. I'll just have to come back, and you can bet I'll keep this list handy.

I made a list of seven for my colleague to rank and then I made the rez. His top two were Trattoria Dell'Arte and Picholine. I was able to get the time we wanted at Picholine so that's where we'll be....this time! I'm already making plans for a Feb. trip when I return to NYC for a mini-vacation. In any case, I'll let you all know how Picholine works out tomorrow night. & thanks again. This site is the best for useful info.

FYI - Bolo is now closed. They're turning the building into condos and Bolo is becoming a walkway..very sad :(

I'm late with my 2 cents, but L'Impero & Picholine are 2 fabulous bets. Also if you want some ambience and like steak, Porter House in the Time Warner Center is a good choice.

For tapas, just went to Alta last night. The ambience and service were fabulous, the food was a little too rich for me. Try Sala or Pipa, better ambience than Tia Pol.

Picholine was a great success this past Sunday night. Thanks to those who recommended it! I had the pumpkin bisque to start and my colleague went with the lobster. We give raves to both. We then had the lamb (don't expect huge portions, but what you get is truly choice)which was perfectly cooked to order, followed by chocolate souffle (served with fennel ice cream) for one of us and the cheese cart for the other. All that, plus the amuse bouche and the variety of breads and the candy/chocolates served with coffee ensure no one should leave hungry. While I agree this was a special occasion sort of meal, we never felt it to be stuffy or too formal. We were able to kick back & relax, enjoying a leisurely meal and letting the stress of the work take a back seat for at least a portion of the evening.

One note. I first looked at opentables.com to check out whether the date & time we wanted was available at this restaurant. On the computer, our time first choice was not available. When I called the restaurant directly a little later, I got within 15 minutes of what I had asked for. Have no idea whether there'd been a cancellation or the restaurant holds back some space. So, don't give up without a phone call if at first you seem to be shut out of your first choices.

Had great luck with the Benjamin Hotel, as well. Pleasant front desk personnel upgraded me from the basic room to a one-bedroom suite including kitchenette, and it was spacious, well-stocked & attractive. Bed VERY comfortable. Water pressure great & plenty of hot water. Excellent adjustable lighted mirror in the bathroom. Amenities overall good. Two flat-screen tvs; DC & DVD players provided & set up at my request at no extra charge and with no fuss. OK, so a lot of these things are usual for hotels in this class, but they aren't always provided with a smile and in good working order.

I would not recommend a $21 continental breakfast, however! Instead, go two doors down to the New York Luncheonette diner and get bacon & eggs & hash browns & toast for the princely sum of $7.95. It was good enough for Bloomberg & Obama recently....! I also have been to Rosen's Deli a short distance away and was very happy with their food, as well. Nothing fancy, including prices. But, there are plenty of fancier options in the vicinity as well for those who want them.

If you love Mexican, there is a great place in Soho called Mexican Radio. They have great mexican food!!