National Parks in December
 

THE SHORT :- How many parks or what parks is it feasible to see in 4-5 weeks from mid December to Mid January 2011-2012?

THE LONG
We are in the very early stages of planning, ie clueless. I have read a few threads and looked a few websites.

We know that there will be snow and that sections will be closed. We want to get a "reasonable" (whatever that is) mix of parks, environments and geology. We don't want to just tick them off a list. But we don't want to do every trail in every park either.

We come from rural Australia so some snow; dirt roads and long distances do not bother us particularly. Having said that, we do not want to do long drives every day. We are loosely thinking of 1-4days in each park depending on its size/attractions then a longish drive to the next area and so on. We prefer walking rather than organised tours but will do them if that is the best or only way to see things. We try to avoid people as much as possible.

We plan to have a campervan and wish to spend as much time as possible in the parks and countryside. We are not into cities, so a day or two in San Francisco will be plenty and maybe one in Las Vegas to see The Strip at night.

The parks I like the sound of so far are Yosemite, Sequoia, Grand Canyon, Zion, Bryces, Arches, Saguaro and all the ones in between. Having been to none of them and intending on returning to the States regularly, it will not be a big deal if we miss any of them this trip.

Thanks for your help.

Yosemite, Sequoia, Grand Canyon, Bryce, and Zion will (like all the others) be open, but opportunities for hiking, or even anything more than short drives, will be QUITE limited. Hiking in Yosemite, for instance, would be ill-advised unless you have LOTS of winter survival skills.

All will be cold, and snow storms are a possibility at any of them. Keep your eye on the weather, be flexible, and follow the rules and advice of Rangers. They are, after all, the ones who must contact your kin if your courage exceeds your winter driving skills.

Saguaro, Arches, and Joshua Tree will be optimal for visits; although the days will be short and nights can get cold.

The best place to get all info you might need is to go to

www.nps.gov

find the home page for each specific park, and then use its Search feature for the word "winter." Here's info on Bryce, for example:

www.nps.gov/brca/planyourvisit/winter.htm

You should add Death Valley National Park to your list. It is sensational and is near Las Vegas.

Another one is Redwoods National Park. It has the tallest trees in the world. Sequoia, of course, has the largest trees in the world.

And there is Yellowstone, the first national park and one of the most impressive.

In 4-5 weeks you can see all of these ... Yosemite high country road is closed but the Valley is open; north rim of GC road is closed but south rim is open; Bryce will likely have a lot of snow (higher elevation) and look lovely; Zion is OK in Dec, Arches and Canyonlands are good, Saguaro will be crowded and warmer due to low elevation.

<b>We plan to have a campervan </b>

It will be really cold in the higher elevations at night, single digits F is common. Mainly at Bryce and south rim of GC. Just so you know ... need a warm bag.

<b>We try to avoid people as much as possible</b>

Many of these will be crowded around Christmas and New Year, not so much otherwise except maybe Saguaro, which is very close to a big-ish city with a lot of winter tourists.

There are some nice areas south of Moab where there are almost no people, do a search on Grand Gulch, Cedar Mesa or Natural Bridges National Monument for examples. Nice hikes, pristine scenic Indian ruins, good scenery in places.

<b>We want to get a "reasonable" (whatever that is) mix of parks, environments and geology</b>

The ones you've listed are very different from one another so you have a nice mix here.

I think I'd also consider a couple days on the California coast between SF and Santa Barbara near the end, to thaw out if nothing else. Not that crowded if you pick your spots.

Where are you flying in and out from? There are some good places in southern California as well, like Joshua Tree.

You're right -- Death Valley would be perfect. And Redwoods would be visitable, although the weather may be a bit miserable.

I would not advise a first visit to Yellowstone to take place in the middle of winter unless you are REALLY into that season.

A camper van + the mountains + snow/ice + altitudes of 6000-8000 feet -- doesn't equal a formula for great success

You can have a nice tour to several national parks -- but I personally wouldn't do it in a camper.

A few other issues - renting a car and staying in hotels/motels will be cheaper than an RV rental and a hecka lot warmer. A 4wd car/SUV is easier to maneuver in snow/ice.

We are talking some really mountainous/snowbound regions.

There ARE some great parks visitable in Winter -- headed by Death Valley. The south rim of the GC. A few others.

Yosemite is amazing in winter -- but you are limited pretty much to the valley floor and the Badger Pass ski area. No access to the back country or even the trails above the Valley.

Redwood Nat'l Park shouldn't have much of a snow issue --but winter rain storms can be monumental!

Thanks. We are by no means winter experts. We do also have a low tolernce to driving danger and will happy give up and turn around where others would go on. We have both driven in the snow and are highly respectful of it. I used to be a ski patroller.

I did forget to put Death Valley on the list and Mojave and Lassen. Is it best to focus just on California and maybe a bit of the Grand Canyon?

We have regularly stayed in our campervan in -10C. We were planning on hiring a small camper rather than a large RV.

At this early stage I am open to any and all suggestions.

Death Valley and Redwoods are great ideas!

If I had that much time, I'd head on over to the east to see Sedona and Santa Fe and surrounding areas. I'd stop at Mesa Verde NP and Great Sand Dunes in CO and maybe fly out out Denver.

Definitely do Death Valley, and watch the weather. If it is mild, then go to Zion for hiking, Bryce for a look (probably will be snow on the trails even if the roads are clear), Grand Canyon (may have dry enough conditions to do a bit of hiking at least along the rim trail). If it is snowy, consider going south to Saguaro and then over to Carlsbad Caverns in New Mexico and Big Bend in Texas.

Also look to the Navajo Tribal Parks like Monument Valley and Antelope Canyon if weather permits.

peter,

Winter is not the best time to visit most of these Natl Parks, but it can be done and they will be beautiful in a winter way. Understand that your hiking will be limited. Many of the trails at parks with snow will be too icy. On the other hand, there will be opportunities to snowshoe or cross country ski! Even downhill ski if you want - Mammoth Mountain is on the eastern Sierra side of CA and has great skiing. It's south of Yosemite, but in winter you would have to take the long, low elevation route between the two. Tioga Pass will be closed.

Like janisi said, skip the RV for this winter trip. It will be much nicer and easier driving with a good car. I would recommend a 4x4, not just an all wheel drive.

Zion is very popular during the holidays. Reserve now if you still can! Bryce will be very cold and snowy. Nice for a day and that will be enough for you I think. Moab can be great in the winter. It can snow, but not a lot and there are lots of short/long hikes to take that would not be affected by icy conditions as much as in places like Zion and Bryce.

You will need to be very watchful of the weather reports every day and need to be flexible. Be prepared for some of the smaller towns near the Natl Parks to be very closed down for winter. Not as many restaurants open, etc.

I'm surprised you aren't coming to ski! I live in Park City, UT and get tons of home exchange requests from Oz!

Keep planning - we'll help!

Lassen is in northern California - not really on a logical loop for your trip.

Lee Ann

We can both ski. We just haven't done it for many years, so skiing is an option as long as we get "Ski Fit" first.

I thought Lassen was a bit out of the way.

Thanks for the help. We will cobble something together.

Lassen isn't out of the way if you were considering Redwoods Nat'l Park. But really not that practical due to the snow/closed rds in winter. Parts of the park are open year round -- but the main road across the park is closed about the same length as Tioga Pass down in Yosemite.

Folks not from around here sometimes can't imagine the snow depths we are talking about.

These are the Sierra records and not likely what you'll face -- but typical years can often be only a few feet less:

* 1 day snowfall: 67 inches (5.6 ft.)

* Single storm snowfall: 186.6 inches (15.6 ft.)

* 1 month snowfall: 390 inches (32.5 ft.)

* Total winter snowfall: 884 inches (73.7 ft.)

* Greatest snow depth: 451 inches (37.6 ft.)

* Highest average March snow depth: 108 inches (9 ft.)

Wow! I knew they were high. That is why we are asking for guidance. A huge winter here at the ski resorts would be an average depth of 6ft! A good winter, would be half that. Generally it is a wet slushy snow as well. Powder is rare and may last for a day or so if you are lucky.

The really big difference is that we go to the snow.The snow doesn't come to us. Few people live in the mountains and those that do live in Ski Resorts that really only operate over winter with a few summer activities to try and earn some extra. They are basically ghost towns in Summer.

It was fascinating to go to Northern Europe in Autumn and see cities in a light dusting of snows. Our ski resort are not even towns really.

We look forward to the different experience snow will bring.

Thanks for the Statistics. Great!

Knowing our luck, based on previous experience, if there is weather record to be had, we will get it!

I love this article:
http://www.usatoday.com/travel/desti...n-winter_N.htm

If you can make it there, it's definitely worth the trip.

http://www.yosemitepark.com/Activiti...ctivities.aspx

I agree about no camper - our national parks are not so expensive that you couldn't do it for a reasonable price. 5 weeks is a long time. I'll get back to you....

-10 centrigrade is 14 degrees. the areas you're talking about can get to -20 centrigrade, esp at night (I mean NYC gets that cold too) and there can be feet and feet of snow (passes and many areas close for the winter).

I agree that staying in a camper could be very uncomfortable - never mind trying to drive it on snowy or icy roads. There are storms many winters that close even major highways between cities for a day or more - I would rent a vehicle much easier to manage and have a real (indoor) place to stay in case you get a bad storm or just a cold snap.

Joshua Tree National Monument would be a worthwhile visit.

Pt. Reyes National Seashore should be on your list. No snow there and there are windows in the winter weather there when things are lovely...cool and breezy, but lovely. Could be rainier and stormier than hell too.

We've been to Canyonlands, Arches, Zion, and the Grand Canyon in Dec/Jan. We were lucky; we ran into snow, but not huge amounts. We had a four-wheel drive vehicle that made it all ok. I highly recommend hiking to the bottom of the Grand Canyon on Bright Angel or...I can't remember the other one...we stayed in the campground at Phantom Ranch at the bottom, made reservations for the yummy dinner in their cafeteria (hunter's stew). We only stayed overnight but in hindsight I would have stayed two, if only to rest up for the 9-hour hike back to the rim!

I have to say, when we stayed in Moab, we LOVED the Holiday Inn Express. Because it's virtually empty at that time of the year, we asked for an upgrade and got a suite for like $65/night. Do the Devil's Garden hike in Canyonlands!

Thanks people. You really are spoiled! There is so much choice in such a small area. Joshua Tree and Pt Reyes sounds fascinating.

Mesa Verde NP in winter is really small scale - only one cliff dwelling is available for touring, Spruce Tree House and it's little museum and the loop drive is open too. It will be cold and most likely snowy. There is only 1 small snack like place to eat too.

We love going at that time of year, but we live 10 minutes away so it is easy for us. We love the solitude and quiet and splendor of winter, but really, for a visitor, not the best time to visit.

http://picasaweb.google.com/DebitNM/MesaVerdeInWinter

OK - I thought about it a little. Fly to Vancouver, Canada, south through Olympic NP, coast road or I-5 down to SF, Yosemite, probably can't do Sequoia due to snow, go to the Arizona, Utah, etc parks noted above, Grand Tetons, Yellowstone, up to Banff an Jasper and back to Vancouver. (or do it backwards). See if Lassen and Lake Tahoe could be added somewhere. Lots of driving, you can fly-drive as you want to and doable in 4-5 weeks. We do plow our roads in the winter, so unless there is a big snow - and it does happen - driving isn't that tough. Cathay Pacific flies to Vancouver from Sydney through Hong Kong, I believe. If you snowshoe or cross country ski, rangers are available at most snowy parks to do tours. YS has snowcoaches.

Whatever you decide, you'll have a wonderful (hopefully winter wonderland wonderful) trip.

"<i>We do plow our roads in the winter, so unless there is a big snow - and it does happen -</i>"

True -- but chains are frequently required -- and most rental agencies do not allow you to install chains.

But -- quite often the conditions are "Chains or 4 wd w/ snow tires" so if you can rent a car w/ snow tires that would help-- though mess up your gas mileage.

I may have said this on a previous post of yours. Is there just no way you can come in the summer? Here is what I consider doable in Winter, but ideally probably better in Spring.

Everglades
Key Biscayne
Dry Tortugas
These are really good for the winter, but not in the summer

Death Valley
Saquaro
Joshua Tree
Channel Islands
Mammoth Cave
Carlsbad (bats are there only in summer)
Guadalope
Big Bend

Yosemite, Yellowstone, Zion, and Sequoia all have things to do in the winter, but you are going to miss VERY BIG parts of the park.

Arches, Canyonlands, and Grand Canyon are all possible in the winter, and they might be worth considering. Generally, arches and canyonlands don't get that much snow.

I always try to go my first visit to a park at an optimal time of the year. The only places that are really optimal are Florida or Hawaii. Which, both might be good options, bbut wouldn't be entirely parkish. You would have a bit of everything(cities, etc). I haven't been to very many of the parks in the winter. I did Sequoia on Jan 1, a couple of years ago. There was a LOT of snow, but it was very pretty. Did a little snowshoe hiking, but it was very limited on what we could do.

Thanks for all your great help.
Spirobulldog - If I come in summer we will only have two weeks. Not really economic. We have 5 weeks over our summer. We have to fit with our school terms. We will have long service leave in about three years time which will give us about 6 weeks at any time of the year. We will toss up between USA and England/Europe. I have two sisters in England so depending on how recently they have visited will decide on the destination.

christabir - thanks, that is something we hadn't thought of either.

We know we will miss things that are closed for winter but we will also get to see a great deal of things that we have never seen before. We will be back at some stage.

We went to Hawaii last year for 2 weeks. It was not long enough!

All these warnings about extreme snow depths are mostly for the Sierras in California. These mountains catch the moisture-laden storms coming off the Pacific, hence the heavy snows. But further inland, if you stay in southern Utah and south (Arizona, southern Nevada, New Mexico) you won't have to fight this as much.

For example there are passes across the Sierras that require chains much of the winter, yet I've never once had to put on chains in 25 years of winter driving in Arizona and southern Utah. 4-WD and snow tires yes, chains never (yet). Sometimes you have to wait a day or two but roads are generally cleared quickly after storms in Arizona and southern Utah.

So if I were you I'd pick a starting city that's a bit south and not too high, like Las Vegas or Phoenix or Los Angeles (near zero chance of snow at any of these). Then think seriously about skipping Sequoia and Yosemite UNLESS it's a mild winter to date and snow levels are low.

I'd concentrate on a loop thru maybe southern Nevada (Death Valley, etc), then Zion and Bryce in Utah (Bryce will probably have the most snow of any place on this route because it's high but they usually clear the highways within 24 hours after a storm). Then across Utah thru Cedar Breaks to Moab area (Canyonlands, Arches NP), then down thru Navajo country (Monument Valley, Canyon de Chelly), maybe detour to visit Page and Grand Canyon south rim. There might be snow at the GC but again the storms are short and the roads are cleared quickly.

Then if you have time you can work east to New Mexico (Santa Fe is a city worth a stop) or southern Colorado if you want to see Mesa Verde. I'd personally head south on I-25 with stops at Bosque del Apache (tens of thousands of wintering geese and cranes, absolutely beautiful in the winter, good camping near the refuge ... http://www.pbase.com/merriwolf/134th_camp_bosque ), then to White Sands National Monument ( http://www.pbase.com/merriwolf/79th_camp_white_sands ), then loop back west to hit Saguaro NP in Arizona and maybe the southern California desert parks like Joshua Tree ( http://www.pbase.com/zylen/joshua_tree ) You could also visit Carlsbad Caverns in New Mexico.

This would avoid the worst winter weather spots, be about the right length, and let you see a wide range of areas.

I'd start by picking the begin/end cities, looking for reasonable airfare and availability of 4-wd campers, and then begin planning a route from there.

<b>Then across Utah thru Cedar Breaks to Moab area </b>

Oops, meant "Capitol Reef" instead of Cedar Breaks ...

Most of what I would consider "must do trails" will be closed in Zion and Bryce. I do think that Bryce offers some snowshoe trails. The lodges will be closed at a lot of the places listed as well.

Thanks again everyone.
Bill_H that sounds like what we want to do. We are loosely thinking of flying into and out of San Francisco. Then Pt Reyes and parts of the San Andreas fault then head inland, roughly following your loop, dependant of course on the snow reports for the season. The Bosque del Apache is one we didn't know about and sounds great. We like bird watching but are not "birdies"/"twitchers" or whatever they are called they just go to tick them off a list.

Stunnig photographs for all of them.

There is so much to see and do. We won't have time to eat or sleep by the sounds of it.

Cheers.

Glad to hear you're considering starting in the San Francisco Bay Area.

If you are cheese lovers, there are severeal small, artisinal dairies in the Pt. Reyes area that produce some amazing chesses that you could enjoy as you roam around the country. Cowgirl Creamery is just one. If you are oyster fans, drive a few miles to north to Marshall for some fresh oysters plucked from Tomales Bay.

An FYI...the stairs down to the Pt. Reyes Lighthouse are closed on Tuesdays. If the weather permits while you are there, it is quite a trek down the cliff to the lighthouse.

The lighthouse is closed on Wednesdays too. If you do come in winter, the lighthouse is a great spot to whale watch and can be quite popular on sunny days. In fact, you need to take a shuttle bus out there on weekends.

"There is so much to see and do. We won't have time to eat or sleep by the sounds of it."

You will have plenty of time to eat and sleep because it gets dark at 4:30 in the afternoon and there's not much to do in the National Parks at night. Winter is not a good time of year to do this. Other than the parks in California and Arizona (besides the Grand Canyon which will be bitterly cold), I would not consider camping in mid-winter. There are other places in the world I'd rather be at.

What type of vehicle are you thinking of renting? I'm sure you know that we don't have the same type of campervan here in the States that you have in Australia. The US is far more RV oriented and the vans that we have are usually very luxurious and expensive to rent. Also, the RV parks that we have here are nothing like the caravan parks that you are used to. And in winter, in the mountains, these RV parks like KOA will be pretty deserted if open at all.

You say that you spent 2 weeks in Hawaii and it wasn't long enough. If I were you, I might consider returning there and see what you missed the last time. Or consider Patagonia or Brazil or maybe Mexico.

Thanks for all the advice.
Nice to know when things are closed.

We haven't really sat down and begun serious planning as yet.

We still have two trips this year to complete, before I seriously get into the planning for next year.

We get four lots of holidays a year. Three of two weeks and one of five weeks. Three we take local/state (drive) and one National/International (fly).