jacketwatch

What a thread! How about stopping the thinking that sees "us against them" that is so clear here. Rusty you seem to see tourists as the big slovenly outside force that is uneducated and culturally insensitive. How about you. Keep clumping "them" into the same category with the same collective faulty character traits and what do you see every time you see a tourist. Do you see the person or this image that is so large in your head? How many have you taken the time to learn about and gotten to know? And for Nataliemm, you did the same with that comment about welfare collecting. Frankly you both have the same flaw. Neither one of you see the person. You just see the preideated image in your mind. You're both bigoted. There is a book by JP Sarte called "No Exit." In this book hell is being in a room with no exit for eternity with a person you are completely incompatible with. Keep thinking like you do and maybe you'll be so lucky. Frankly stop being so hateful and small minded. Things will look alot better to you then. Now, to the point. We have been to Hawaii 3 times and am planning a 4th. We like it obviously. And you find idiots whereever you go so just go. Aloha and mahalo! And BTW the Fijian version of Aloha (which is supposed to connote a spirit, right!) is Bula! We love Fiji and said Bula as often as possible to the natives and each other because of the spirit with whaich it was associated. No one there resented us for it. Maybe Rusty and Nat should try going there to regain the Aloha spirit.

nataliemm

I am nor bigoted in any way. I am not considering it "us against them", they are part of us. I am just stating the facts. Molly5 had originally wanted to know if there was any problems with locals not wanting mainlanders. I said there may be an occasion on Molokai. As I have said over and over I have visited Hawaii more than 15 times and have never had a rude encounter. I am always kind and friendly. Do you think it is right to protest visitors on free land? No one seems to understand my point that it is not fair to boycott tourists that are adding to the island's ailing economy. This applies to anyplace, Hawaii, New York, Paris, or otherwise. Can anyone understand this?

jacketwatch

Sorry but I disagree. When you say people in a collective sense prefer welfare to work you ARE bigoted because you categorize or profile a group instead of looking at them as individuals. You know as much about them as persons as Rusty knows about tourists-nothing. You have a right to be offended by what you see but those who are protesting have that right too because it IS a free land!

hmmm

Molly: Go and enjoy the islands. The people are far friendlier than mainlanders and many foreigners. My observation: most in the hospitality industry are exceptionally nice. Those in Hawaii to escape/hide, counterculture agricultural entreprenuers and those whose lands are trampled by tourists care little for outsiders. Some fraction of the natives believe the founding missionary families who ended up with most of the valuable land not kept by the crown engaged in sharp practices to obtain the lands. My recollection of Hawaiian history: the Hawaiian royals invited the U.S. to take the islands to keep them from less friendly foreign powers.

Rusty

Jacketwatch, I am not guilty of any of the things you suggest and it certainly cannot be concluded from this discussion that I am a bigot. I am not against tourists in any way, and I support neither the point of view of the tourists or the locals. I am only saying that I understand the point of view of SOME Hawaiians who are against tourists and tourism, and that the impact of tourists on Hawaii is not all positive. I believe that it is tourists with attitudes like Nataliemm that give some Hawaiians reason to act negatively against tourists. Her argument that tourists contribute to the economy, and therefore they should be welcomed is totally one sided and biased. And it is this attitude that with which I take exception !!!

Have I taken the time to learn about tourists and gotten to know them? What makes you think I am not a tourist myself ? I believe that you might be guilty of making an unfounded rash judgement.

Hmmm, I suggest that you check the reality of Hawaiian history instead of relying on your recollection of Hawaiian history.

hmmm

Rusty: I'd be happy to review any authoritative reference material you care to cite but likewise prefer not to rely on your undocumented professions concerning Hawaiian history, among other things.

jacketwatch

To Rusty: One needs to look no further than your reply asking what is wrong with natives calling tourist "haoles" esp. when considering the CONTEXT in which this person heard it as indicitive of your bias, not to mention how slanted ALL your comments were toward one POV. How would you feel if your son heard what Alohamoms son heard? Of course it was offensive. And you, in that context, defended the local. No one likes tourists with attitudes but you sir have an attitude yourself. And whether you are yourself a tourist or not in no way means you are NOT biased in this matter. Your statements show that. I do agree with you that Natalie is off her rocker. Do realize there are good tourists and not so good locals. I think you have an ax to grind.

kolohegirl

Nataliemm, I believe that you are a very nice person and I'm sure you treat everyone in a fair manner. I was not attacking you personally. As far as the cruise ships stopping on Molokai, you see it as tourists helping the economy of the island. The residents of Molokai do not want your help. Most prefer the quiet, small, rural life they lead. The last thing they want is a cruise ship letting off over 1300 tourists a day to trample through sacred ground, litter the beaches, and dump waste into the waters off Molokai all in the name of tourism and Molokai's economy. You ask "Do you think it is right to protest visitors on free land?" Molokai may be a part of the US now but it was initially an island under the Hawaiian Kindgdom ruled by Queen Liliuokalani. The overthrow and the subsequent annexation of Hawaii were illegal. Whether you believe the US was wrong or right, doing good by Hawaii or raping the Islands is a personal opinion. Regardless, Hawaii is a state by illegal means. For you to call Molokai "free land" is a slap in the face to some. This is exactly what I mean by coming to visit the island with a respect for the people, the land, and the culture.
Hmmm, your recollection regarding Hawaiian history is misguided. I'm thinking you probably heard what your mainland instructors wanted you to hear. Try look at this website. They have some very valuable information which might clear up your misguided memory regarding the history of the relationship between the US, Queen Liluiokalani and the Hawaiian Islands. http://hawaii-nation.org/ Aloha

Rusty

Hmmm, with all due respect in 1993 the U.S. Congress passed a resolution "to acknowledge the 100th anniversary of the January 17, 1893 overthrow of the Kingdom of Hawaii, and to offer an apology to Native Hawaiians on behalf of the United States for the overthrow of the Kingdom of Hawaii."

The apology can be found at:
http://www.hawaii-nation.org/publawall.html

jacketwatch

Completely off the point of course! Just another example of dodging the issue. By default you have admitted to the offense. Bet you did not know that.

Rusty

Jacketwatch, I suggest that you stick to opinions on the subject matter presented herein and refrain from personal attacks, which are in violation of Fodors policy. An apology to the this forum would be appropriate.

Rusty

To Jacketwatch: "Completely off the point of course! Just another example of dodging the issue. By default you have admitted to the offense. Bet you did not know that."

Jacketwatch, I was responding to the request posted by "Hmmmm" above. Another apology is in order !!

jacketwatch

The subject became this matter so I AM sticking to it. And if you don't like the heat stay out of the kitchen. As for an apology don't be riciculous. Your comments are offensive.

jacketwatch

I'll give you that one Rusty, I mean about the reply to Hmmm. When I am wrong I can say so. Don't construe this as an apology. I'll stick to what I said.

hmmm

Hawaii-nation.org is a website established and maintained by people whose consuming, blinding aim is independence from the United States and sovereignty for the "native" people. Not especially authoritative or objective scholarship. Further, the Congress that issued the referenced apology issued them in blank to anyone professing to be aggrieved by any american at any time (other than during the time of that apology). That Congress itself was overthrown in 1994. I remain willing to review any scholarly reference. And, I clearly stated the point as a "recollection," not objective fact.

Rusty

Hawaii-nation.org did not issue the apology. The United States Congress did. Do you want a copy of the apology certified by Congress.

Was the United States Congress was overthrown in 1994 ?

What would you consider a scholarly reference?

Rusty

Jacketwatch, that IS an apology. Thanks !!

Lighten up Jacketwatch. Sorry if I offended you. Time to let this thing die.

Binthair

I propose to rename this thread "Locals don't want you here".

jacketwatch

Funny, thats what I'm trying to get you to do. Thanks for the apology. Lets remember the golden rule. Peace.

sfgrace

http://www.civics-online.org/library...aii_cleve.html