The problem as I see it is that the airlines have already tried making the seats (slightly) larger and raising ticket prices. But people have spoken with their wallets. They *think* they want the cheapest seat possible (or maybe impossible as the case may be).

Given that, I think they have to somehow measure everybody and make large people buy two seats. I just don't see how anything else will be accepted by the flying public, and I don't see any airline making bigger seats first.

persimmondeb, you say,

"And it is cruel to tell them that they should not be so large. They know that."

If they "know that," then they know when they buy a plane ticket that there could be a problem fitting in one seat, and maybe they need to consider that, and buy two? As long as we consider it cruel to discuss obvious facts with people, the problem will never be solved.

Think about just how diminutive airline seats are. Compare them to the seats on just about any other public conveyance. I can easily see someone who does not fly frequently not realizing that they might have a problem.

dmlove - I meant, if necessary, speaking to the FA without worrying about the feelings of the seatmate.

That was the game, by the way. Wasn't it miserable? Hey, at least the Bruins won! GO BRUINS!!!

I find it hard to believe that an obese person wouldn't wonder whether or not they'll fit into an airline seat. Do they never sit in a chair and witness that they're too large for the chair? Come on, that excuse doesn't fly. Pun intended.

How many chairs have you seen that are the size of an airline coach seat? Unless they're intended for kindergartners or are one of my mother's early nineteenth century farmhouse chairs (which only myself, my sister, and small adult guests are allowed to sit in-she has been known to wisk them away from visiting men). Someone who routinely has trouble with chairs should, yes, have the sense to realize that they might have a problem, but I think that there are plenty of people who are not overly challenged by bus seats, furniture, etc., who may have trouble with the airline seat.

Sorry, whisk. She's not doing laundry.

The FA did what he could for you.

It's a good thing you're not flying NW anymore, because they're the only airline with large passengers.

And you did actually have a seat. You were sitting during takeoff and landing, and you got transportation from point A to point B.

Using your CC provisions not to pay borders on fraud, if it's not outright fraud.

I can take a big clean-smelling person next to me, but having a sweaty, smelly person next to me is absolute torture.

Okay, this may sound weird. On my last trip I had a flight from Houston to San Francisco. As I approached my row, I noticed that the middle seat was open, and the gal in the window seat was very large. I got settled and ask if she might be more comfortable if I put the armrest up. I asked if she was okay. She said there was nothing that losing a few pounds wouldn't fix. I said "for me too!", and we laughed about it. She was almost like a soft pillow. But the important thing was that she was clean and didn't smell. The three of us that were seatmates got to talking (I almost never engage in conversation with anyone on planes) and had a nice time. The guy next to me got up to go to the restroom and found someone sprawled at the back of the plane. A flight attendant called for medical assistance, and the big gal next to me, who was a nurse, went to help and got the guy stablized. So my two seatmates ended up saving a person in distress. I was so proud! No complaints from me about sitting next to a big person.

"And you did actually have a seat. You were sitting during takeoff and landing, and you got transportation from point A to point B.

Using your CC provisions not to pay borders on fraud, if it's not outright fraud."

Fraud?? Please. I won't even bother to respond to all the negative posts tonight..It's not worth it. And to the one who called me an exagerator and constant complainer. Yeah, right. Believe what you want to. You do not know me.
See how you feel after having to stand on a 6 hour overnight flight.
Sorry, I don't consider sitting 10 minutes at take-off and 10 at landing to be worthy of paying full price for that segment.

A lot of insensitive people out there today..
Thanks to my "supporters". And yes, I know next time to be more assertive and speak up without worrying about hurting the other's feelings. But frankly, if they had pulled her off the plane, I am sure NW was worried about a discrimination lawsuit.
It's a no-win situation.

"Could we just stop pretending that the FA did not understand what Alexa's problem was?"
Thank you M, that's it exactly. Playing dumb didn't help the matter.
It was clearly obvious what was going on. I was hoping the FA would fully get it before take off.
There was a couple pointing at her while getting off the plane and making remarks, about her size, I assume.
As I think about it, to be honest, if it were to happen again I can't picture myself saying right in front of the person, "this lady is huge and taking up my seat, find me a new one". How does that person feel then??? Maybe I would just write a note to the FA to explain.
I am not sure even if I were assertive if it would have changed the situation.

Thanks, Orlando for your understanding!

Alexa, until people have it happen to them they don't realize how awful it is to sit next to someone who really CAN'T lower the armrest. When it happened to me the armrest was behind the woman, she was so large. Luckily, mine was a short flight and I was next to a friend on the other side. And then there are the apologists for the overweight. Yes, we don't know their situation, but their physical problem does not equal my problem on a plane. Buy two seats or take the train if you can't put the armrest down!

"if it were to happen again I can't picture myself saying right in front of the person, "this lady is huge and taking up my seat, find me a new one". How does that person feel then??? Maybe I would just write a note to the FA to explain."

If these are the only options you can come up with, maybe you lack the basic skills to interact in public transport. Seriously, the passive agressive approach to this situation is more startling than anything you mentioned.

huh? Passive-aggressive approach? Are you a shrink?

Of course I wouldn't word it that way but that is what the lady sitting next to me would have thought. I mean come on. What else would she have thought???

I can sense your disdain towards me for whatever reason. You have your reasons, and I have mine for feeling the way I do, so please let's just leave it at that.

Alexa, don't even bother trying to respond to the psycho-analyzers. You're right -- it's not worth it. FWIW, I completely understand why you prefer not to say anything in front of the woman, and, in fact, why you prefer a non-confrontational approach. Everyone can have their opinions about whether you are within your rights here or not (but fraud? are you kidding me?), but the "psycho" analysis is ridiculous.

<It's a no-win situation.>

Yes, it is. And as such, how was NW supposed to handle it? You're putting all the blame on NW and refusing to pay for the flight, however, you haven't provided anything that they COULD have done to have resolved the problem. The flight was full - there were no seats to move you to.

If they had told you that you would have to wait for the next flight because they didn't have another seat for you, you would be mad about that.

If they had told the obese woman that she would have to wait for the next flight because they didn't have another seat for her, she would be mad about that.

There was NOTHING the airline could have done that would have been acceptable - either way, someone would be online talking about the incident and saying "I'll never fly NW again".

In the end, you're not going to get any compensation. You've turned down their voucher which was fair. They've already lost you as a customer. So why would they bother giving you a full refund. Obviously, from this thread, it is not a "given" that you are completely in the right.

In addition, if you do get the publicity and you're asked "what should NW have done?", you don't have a lot of reasonable suggestions to offer. It will come down to who deserved to be on the flight more: the fat person or the thin person. That's not a battle I would want to be a part of- you're either going to look like a skinny b**ch or a fat slob. :)

You paid for transportation between two cities. NW provided that. If you wanted to be sure you'd have a comfortable ride, you could have ponied up for first-class yourself.

You chose to stand.

NW took you where you wanted to go, you were on the flight, it was physically possible for you to sit in the seat. They provided their end of the deal. Maybe not to your liking, but you still got where you wanted to go. And you could have been sitting the whole way if you wanted to.

So by not paying them, you're basically stealing from them, using your credit card protection provisions. In other words, fraud.

myownheroine, do you honestly believe that in order to ensure a "comfortable" ride, the person who would otherwise take up only one allotted coach seat in this situation should instead buy a first class ticket, as opposed to the person taking up 1-1/2 seats not being allowed to do so? If so, you're crazier than I thought.

I suppose you think that it's okay for a smoker to blow smoke in your face, since you could move out of the way?

Dmlove - what does first class have to do with anything?

Myownheroine was simply pointing out that the OP HAD a seat. It was the OPs choice not to utilize that seat. Had the OP made it known BEFORE takeoff that there was a problem with the seat, something could have been done (whether it would have been more satisfactory to her is questionable as she had a 50/50 chance of being the one kicked off for a later flight). Unfortunately, the OP did NOT make that problem known.

Whether or not the FA could guess what the problem is, by not speaking up honestly, the OP made it acceptable for them to ignore the problem.

This is like going to a restaurant, eating the entire meal, then telling the waiter that the meat was overcooked and unedible and you refuse to pay for it. Once you've eaten the meal, you've lost the argument.

"Myownheroine was simply pointing out that the OP HAD a seat. It was the OPs choice not to utilize that seat."

She didn't have a seat. She had 2/3 a seat because 1/3 of her seat was taken over by a huge mass.

The OP said she talked to a flight attendant about getting a different seat, but there were none available.

But I do think there is little the OP can do now.

She ought to take the $300 certificate if it is still available. I'm surprised the airline offered that much as there really is little they can do in that situation.

I feel sorry for the large woman's husband (if she has one) as he probably has to push her around in a wheelbarrow.

Photos are always useful to resolve any dispute "after the fact."

Don't cell phones have to be turned off once the plane is started down the runway? So before takeoff you could discreetly take your picture without any confrontation.

"I feel sorry for the large woman's husband (if she has one) as he probably has to push her around in a wheelbarrow."

Given this comment, I'm guessing people also pity your spouse.

Huh? CONFRONT the fat passenger? Just what should have been said to her? "Buy a second seat"? (There were no more seats. "Put the armrest down"? She couldn't. Or are you just suggesting that she vent at the fat woman by saying something like "You're too fat to fly!"?

We don't know the fat woman's situation, perhaps she was flying on a last-minute emergency and tried to buy two seats but there were no more seats.

An amusement park won't let you on a ride if you don't fit, because it is not safe. Northwest should have an obligation not to allow someone into one seat if they don't fit, it is not safe to fly with the armrest up. Report this to the FAA. Just another case where the airlines need to clean-up their lazy act and shape up. Squeezing fat people into a seat is putting their health in danger, blood clots could form on a 6 hour flight. If the airline is allowing these people to get onto the plane, they have an obligation to have a wide seat that the person can fit into. Someone at the gate was just not doing their job. They decided to let her on the plane and let the flight attendant have to deal with the problem. But the flight attendants are just pre-programmed to hurry up and get passengers ready for an on-time departure.

There's not much to be done about this situation, it's over. Maybe the OP could have handled it differently and received some satisfaction. She didn't want to hurt the woman's feelings, that's understandable.

But, I'm sure the woman was aware of her size. The OP could have said, "I'm getting crushed here and I need your help, let's put the armrest down so I get my fair share of the seat."
If the woman didn't agree, it's time to call the attendant and repeat the request. Emphasizing "I need your help."
Be nice, be firm. If you don’t get help; document.

It is a no win situation, having experienced it myself.

A couple of things I wonder about. I am sure an obese person is quite uncomfortable squeezing into one seat. I wonder why they just don't but the extra seat for their own comfort?

I am waiting for a lawsuit to arise from normal sized people. I think the person that has to sit next to soemone who is not only taking up half their seat, but casuing a safety hazard is being ignored and discriminated against. They are saying that the obese person has all the rights in the situration.

Hi L84SKY:) I don't know if you have ever been in this situation - I hope not. The person that was suffocating us could not put the armrest down, she was too large. She also could not put her tray down. They know they are crushing you, but not only is there nothing they can do, but I honestly don;t think many care as long as they are permitted to shoehorn into 1 seat they will continue to do so.

It's funny.....I used to sell cars. I have seen many many obese people come in. They would always say the same thing "Before you waste your time, first let me see if I can fit behing the wheel". I am assuming that people do know they are obese, and are aware of thier size, if they weren't they would not try on cars like shoes. I wish they would practice this at the airport.

<Northwest should have an obligation not to allow someone into one seat if they don't fit, it is not safe to fly with the armrest up. >

I don't think there is any safety issue with the armrest being up or down. If there was, then wouldn't it be a safety risk for a large person to use 2 seats as they would be required to put the middle armrest up?? If there was a real danger with their being up, then they wouldn't be moveable in the first place.

I agree that the airlines need to do something to resolve this problem, but there is a major dilemna involved. If they create a special section for large people, how many "normal sized" people will start complaining because they are still squished in tiny seats when fat people get the "comfy seats". Do you put a minimum size limit on the larger seats? What about the people who CAN squish into a regular seat but would be more comfortable in the large ones? What about the tall passengers, should they get to use the large seats?

Even without considering the cost and charge of the seats, this is not a simple problem to resolve.

L84sky - I think you've shown how someone could confront the situation without being rude, discourteous, or self-righteous.

Dusty - that comment was rude, tacky, and just plain uncalled for.

In my situation it was a safety hazard because we were completely blocked in. We both had to literally climb over this person who could not move or even scoot up in her seat. I am 5'10 and my husband is 6'4. We were squished into 1 and 1/2 seats and could not even get up to use the bathroom. The front of this womans body nearly touched the back of the other seat. She was annoyed that we had to climb over her too. If there was an emergency of any kind we would have been blocked into our seats.

I do not think that there should be special sized seats....if you are bigger than the seat, you have to buy another one.

JetBlue now offers seats with more legroom. rows 2-5 have as much room as an exit row - however there is a $15.00 per seat/per way charge. So since we want the extra legroom, we paid for it. I did not take the seats with regular room and expect the person in front of me to NOT put their seat back because we are taller than the average person and need the legroom. Airlines seats/space is limited. If you want or require that extra room then you have to pay for it. We always do, we don't want to, but after being barracaded into airline seats by a human cork was lesson enough for us.

Annabel - what happens if those seats with the extra legroom are all filled up? Will you not get on the plane? What happens if your flight (where you have the extra legroom seats paid for) is cancelled and you are put on another plane where those seats aren't available and the plane is full? Will you agree to stay behind until a plane with those seats available comes along? How long would you be willing to wait? Or would you decide that you will take a regular seat even though it's too cramped and continue on your trip?

In the OPs situation, this was a case where there had been a cancelled flight and that caused her flight to be overbooked. If that hadn't had happened, she most likely would have been moved to another seat. Unfortunately, there was NO OTHER seat to move her to. The other woman was in the same situation - there was no second seat for her to have bought, etc. Therefore, she was stuck where she was.

We have been in that situation where we did not have our choice of seats and we were uncomfortable. The only difference is that WE were uncomfortable, but we did not take up anyone else's seat, space or make anyone else uncomfortable.

An obese person stuffed into one seat is the equivelent of 2 people squeezing into one. If that is not permitted why is 1 person the size of 2 permitted?

The point of this post is why do other poeple have to suffer with another person taking up half their seat and offering $100? What's that??

Yes it is a safety issue. Haven't you ever seen the FA's come around and tell everyone to put their armrest down for takeoff?

The point of the responses has been that by not speaking up honestly about the problem, the OP did not provide the airline an opportunity to DO SOMETHING about the problem before the flight.

Instead, the OP "suffered in silence" for 6 hours, left the plane, left the airport, and then started complaining to the airline and refusing to pay for the flight.

Under these circumstances, it is not reasonable to expect the airline to refund her money. She was lucky to get an offer for $300 (more than half her cost according to her posts).

JMHO, but the real source of the problem is the airlines. There should be strict guidelines regarding the size of a person (not the weight). It should not be up to us to "complain, write letters or make calls" or the FA's to make decisions. It is the airlines. The truth of the matter is the airlines have turned a blind eye to the size situation, and has absolutely no comment other than "it's discrimitory".It is not discrimnation if it is a safety violation - which it is. Honestly it is discrimination to us as full fared paying customers. Unfortunately something horrible has to happen before things change. It is size discrimination at theme parks when a seat is outside the ride for people to see if they fit?? That is out in the open for all to see. If a large size person cannot get the seat belt buckled or the lap bar down on a roller coaster, they have to get off the ride....why??? SAFETY!
If you cannot FIT in one seat (regardless of weight), you must buy 2 or you cannot get on the plane.

<i>Dmlove - what does first class have to do with anything?</i>

Perhaps you should read the post to which I was responding before asking a sarcastic question. Here is what myownheroine had to say:

<i>If you wanted to be sure you'd have a comfortable ride, you could have ponied up for first-class yourself.</i>

In all my years of flying (mostly Delta and USAir) I've never seen an FA require an armrest be lowered for takeoff of landing. Just tray tables and seatbacks.

<i>An obese person stuffed into one seat is the equivelent of 2 people squeezing into one. If that is not permitted why is 1 person the size of 2 permitted?</i>

In fact, why not just leave the armrests up altogether and sell 3 seats to 4 people. Think how much more the airlines could make LOL!

&quot;if you wanted to be sure you'd have a comfortable ride, you could have ponied up for first-class yourself.&quot;
Let them eat cake! Ha!

Thanks to those of you who posted with the good advice/encouragement.
You are right in that I should not respond to the bashers. I am not committing &quot;fraud&quot; (still don't understand that one) and I am not a chronic complainer.

Thanks to some people's suggestions on here, I added some good info to the letter to NorthWest.

Funny- I've been on 100s of flights and never knew the armrest had to be lowered at take-off and landing. I guess on all my flights it has automatically been down. I noticed the FA said to lower armrests at landing time and I laughed to myself b/c it was impossible to lower the armrest. At the end of the flight I mentioned it to the FA and he did say the airline requires all armrests to be down as a safety issue at take-off and landing.

I don't want this post to cause arguments or to poke fun at those who are obese. They could have a metabolic disorder and I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
I was simply seeking advice after coming home from a trip overly exhausted.
One thing I was most annoyed with was the awful manager I had to deal with when I landed at MSP and the airline should not have people like that in a managerial position.

I will post NorthWest's response when I receive it since I know some on here really care. And I appreciate that.
I do see this as a growing problem for the airlines as our nation continues to grow bigger..
I have to go to Argentina in 2 weeks and I paid more for Business class- just to be safe!

Perhaps this could open up a whole new class of seating. First Class, Business Class, Coach, and Hefty. Hefty just has larger seats and not any of the perks of Business or First. They also get no snacks or soda as they are already to big to begin with. It is a similar experience sitting next to someone who has had to much to drink, someone who talks constantly, or a baby crying on a 6 hour flight.

since you went there, why not a soundproof section for parents with small children or one for people with too much perfume, gas or b.o., or for those who can't stop talking about themselves or the sleepers that lean on you, list goes on and on.