Grand Canyon hiking questions
 

I am debating between a Rim to Rim hike or hiking to Havasu Falls with a short quick visit to the South Rim with my nephew. He will be 14 at that point. This would be next summer 2013. I am just trying to get my thoughts on what I want to do, so I can get on the reservations when they become available. I have been to the GC myself 3 times. Just 2 short visit to the South Rim and then a short raft trip. This would be his first visit.
Both of us have hiked some fairly difficult trail, but nothing like a rim to rim. I think we would both be ok.
I imagine the trip would be the first weekend in June(possibly the 2nd).

The logistics of the rim to rim hike make it probably the most tricky. I have all the ultralight items I need (pretty much) for the hike to Havasu. So, I could tent camp there or go with the lodge. Just how bad is it at the campground? I am a bit concerned about the water temp being really to cold to swim in much as well. I'm not for sure if I'd hike out of Havasu or attempt to get a helicopter. The helicopter sounds pretty iffy on being able to get on it in a reasonable amount of time.

Anyone who has done both have an opinion? Hopefully Bill_H will see this and put his two cents in.

I am just at the planning stages right now of trying to figure out where and what I want to do with him next summer. I may end up going somewhere else all together. But, I am 45. I figure I better hike these two trails before I can't. We are camping in the Smoky's this summer. Last summer we did Carlsbad Cavern(two wild cave tours) and Guadalupe We hiked Guadalupe peek in temps above 100.. The summer before that we did Lassen and Redwoods.

Well, you know you're fitness and limitations (and his) better than we do. Havasu would involve a lot less elevation change and slightly cooler temps (about 5 degrees) at the bottom than hiking to Phantom Ranch.

Never been to Havasu, friend did it and stayed at the lodge. The power was out so they slept outside because it was too hot inside. No real effort made by staff to mitigate the situation, same as I've heard from others. They just don't seem to care much for customer service down there.

Question is: would you be happy at Havasu? What would you do other than hang out in the waterfalls/pools? I think the rim to rim is more ambitious but offers more variety and things to see and do along the way. Plus, I'd rather deal with the park service than the Havasupai if you ran into any trouble. Maybe do the Havasu trip in a cooler month?

100% go for Havasupai, and not only hike to the havasu fall, but try to go all the way down to the river to maximise the adventure. Water temp would be perfect in June. I think 2 nights are max in there.
Or, stay 1 night in supai, hike to moonay falls and havasu falls, fly-out and then do rim-to-rim hike....depend upon how many days you have etc.
I have never been to havasupai, but It's my dream hike. I'm studying the havasupai hike and preparing since last 2-3 years, but somehow I've never made it till today. It was close in 2009/2010...could not get site to stay in 2011...and now looking forward to 2013 for it.

Hi John,

Been waiting for you to post about hiking rim-to-rim ;)

As for which hike to do, if you are in good enough shape to do rim-to-rim, which I think you are for early June when it's not killer hot, then that would be a much more satisfying hike than Havasu. While the waterfalls are beautiful at Havasu, I felt like a barely tolerated guest near the village myself and wouldn't repeat the experience.

Are you planning rim-to-rim for a one-day push or a multi-day, staying at Phantom and/or Indian Gardens? I think it's actually easier to do it in one day than camping overnight, for two reaons -- first, you can carry a very light pack if just day-tripping (I used to get by with 7-8 lbs, half of that water, carried in a pack that fit around my waist so I had nothing on my back) but it's hard to keep it under 25-30 lbs if backpacking with camping gear. You can possibly get a cabin -- tough odds, but you can try -- and eat two or three of your meals at the Phantom Ranch dining hall and keep the pack weight down that way (no tent, no bag, no stove, no cook kit, not much food), but much more expensive than camping, and harder to set up due to scarcity of cabins.

Second reason is that you'll inevitably be somewhat dehydrated and definitely sore, especially your feet, calves and thighs, from the first day with a moderately heavy pack, so it's a real chore to get started on the 2nd day when you have to hike out. Hiking out with blistered feet and sore calves with a heavy pack isn't fun. But if you're pushing thru in one day then you don't feel the stiffness and soreness until the next day.

I think I've gone across five times in late May/early June, every time from south to north rim on Saturday and then back the 2nd day. Usually the daily high temps at Phantom were in the low to mid-90's though I remember one day when it was supposed to get to 103-105 F, but we were always past Phantom by 7 AM going north and by 9 AM going south (big fan of an early start) so never really felt the effects of the heat. So a pretty enjoyable time to be hiking in there.

I think the slowest guys from work we ever hiked with took about 10 hours, most of us took around 8 hours, some of the young and strong guys have done it in 7 hours. Most of these people only went one way and then rode back on day 2. Some guys brought their kids, down to age 15 or so, and a couple of guys were in their 60's (but wiry and in good shape).

For sure take the short detour to Ribbon Falls, about a mile south of the Cottonwood campground (about 6 miles from Phantom). Nice place to stop and eat a bit of food ... 20 ft waterfall that gathers in a jacuzzi-sized bowl, then another 40 ft drop that's covered with sparkling green moss, all in an alcove with monkey flowers etc in a cooler micro-climate due to the spray than the trail area.

If I do the rim to rim, I am definately leaning more to just staying at Phantom(1 or maybe 2 nights)than backpacking it. I don't think I would attempt it in a single day.

I was leaning more toward the backpacking/tent camping rather than the lodge if I do Havasu.

I certainly hope to do one of the two next summer and then the other a year or two later. Decisions Decisions.

Bill,
So you think starting out on the south and going up the north is a better option? I was think just the opposite for some reason.

Am I estimating right that you make it down in about 2.5-3.5 hours on the and then back up to the north in about 5-7 hours?

<b>So you think starting out on the south and going up the north is a better option? I was think just the opposite for some reason.</b>

Always did it that way because where I live it's a 4 hour drive to south rim but an 8 hour drive to north rim.

If going just one way then starting on the north rim in theory will be easier because of the elevations ... north Kaibab trailhead is about 8,240 ft, the river roughly 2,400 ft, Bright Angel trailhead 6,860 ft and Kaibab trailhead 7,260 ft. So total elevation gain from the river to the south rim is 4,460 ft via BA, while total gain going north from the river is 5,840 ft.

<b>Am I estimating right that you make it down in about 2.5-3.5 hours on the and then back up to the north in about 5-7 hours?</b>

For most people a "brisk walk" on level ground would be about a 4 mph pace. Hiking the canyon there's first hiking down, which most people can do at around 3 mph or slightly faster (I think the park service says 2-3 mph downhill is a 'normal range' for dayhiking; with a heavy pack it's always slower). Down south Kaibab to the river is just 6.4 miles so 2 - 2:15 hours to get down with minimal gear.

Then there's a long level 10 mile stretch beside Bright Angel creek that is easy walking and you can do this part at 3-4 mph with a light pack. There's a very gradual elevation gain, I think 1,400 ft or so in 10 miles, which feels level while you're doing it. So 3-3.5 hours or so in here, plus about a 20-30 minute stop at Ribbon Falls for brunch.

Then there's "up" section and that's where speeds really vary, not unlike cars & trucks climbing a steep hill. Park service says 1-3 mph for this ... going to the north rim there's just 4.7 miles of "up" (where the Kaibab trail leaves Bright Angel creek and follows a side canyon), so really strong hikers can do this in under 2 hours, and slow ones (really tired ones) can take 5 hours.

Coming the other way (north to south) there's actually a longer steep "up" hike than going north (6.4 miles via Kaibab, which is relentlessly up, and slightly less on Bright Angel after a 2 mile hike on soft sand beside the river). It always took me longer (maybe 20 minutes) to go north to south even with less total elevation gain, though maybe because I was a bit tired from the previous day's hike.

If you're planning on staying at Phantom Ranch or the campground then north-to-south is better because you'll have a shorter hike out, but for day hiking I always felt it was sort of a wash difficulty-wise and actually preferred going north despite the extra elevation.

I have not done a rim to rim though have been on the North Kaibab to Roaring Springs. We also hiked down South Kaibab and up Bright Angel with overnights at both Bright Angel Creek and Indian Gardens.
I have also been to Havasupai in the last year.
Of the two I am dying to find a way to get back into the Grand Canyon. While I am glad I've been to Havasu Falls I feel- at least right now still trying to recuperate from the devastating flooding they had- that it is highly overrated.

So my vote would definitely be for the Rim to Rim. It will be an experience you will always treasure. June could be very hot in the canyon, we didn't even take a tent, just slept out.

Interesting thoughts from Bill about the north rim being easier going up since it is a shorter steep incline... My thoughts are that I really don't think I could do 14 miles up in one day. I'd want an overnight at Cottonwood if I did it that way.

Hoping for a fall trip this year myself....if I can get the camping permits and get in shape for it as well.

Well, don't forget the duffel service option if you go north to south. Have the mules take the heavy stuff up for you. I think you would like the rim to rim much better than Havasupai right now, so many things to explore along the way, especially if you take a couple nights.

Thinking about a trip back to Phantom Ranch myself later this fall, was my favorite place to visit ever. So InSandy, we're maybe not so different afterall. :-)

The duffel service would be a nice lux way of hiking out.

Still haven't made up my mind on the rim to rim or Havasu. Although, you guys have me thinking more of the rim to rim. If I do the rim to rim, I think I will start out on the North. This way I could avoid the shuttle after the hike out too.

So if I did North to South, do I want to come up South K or Bright Angel? I have read the pros and cons on elevation gain, water availability, and sun exposure.

<b>I'd want an overnight at Cottonwood if I did it that way.</b>

Sandy, it's not really "14 miles up", it's 4.7 miles of steep up with the remaining 9+ miles pretty much level, beside the creek, with such a slight elevation gain you really don't notice. This part is the easiest hiking anywhere in the GC below the rim, I feel, except when it's really hot. On your hike to Roaring Springs you did almost all of the hard (steep) part.

<b>I'd want an overnight at Cottonwood if I did it that way.</b>

It's *extremely* difficult to get a permit for Cottonwood, they only have a few sites after floods washed away much of the campground, and everyone wants to get one to set up multi-day rim-to-rim hikes. I tried several times to get a spot here and the only time I was able to camp here was in winter months when the north rim is shut down, so there was no rim-to-rim traffic and no demand for Cottonwood. Then I pretty much had the whole place to myself (maybe once or twice one other person or small group).

<b>So if I did North to South, do I want to come up South K or Bright Angel?</b>

If you have pack space for 4 quarts of water and are feeling chipper then go for the gold standard, Kaibab. It's a much more scenic trail, with many fewer people and few mules compared to BA, and it's shorter, so you'll typically finish 30 - 60 minutes earlier.

The big advantage of BA is that there is water at three places (4.5, 3 and 1.5 miles below the rim), while there is none on Kaibab, so you can carry 2 quarts of water on BA and refill (this saves you 4 lbs of weight). Also there is a ranger station and campground at Indian Gardens in case you need help; also 400 ft lower elevation at the rim; also an easier average gradient. And you'll come up in the center of the main visitor area, while on Kaibab you'll have to wait to catch a shuttle once you are out.

The disadvantages of BA are the 2 mile slog thru the soft sand beside the river before you start "up" (really nasty when it's hot, but you should be thru this early AM), the greater crowding (especially as you near the top), and the extra couple miles distance. And while it's definitely scenic, you follow a drainage up so can't see as far up and down the canyon compared to Kaibab, which follows ridgelines and has incredible views upstream and down.

Tough to answer the question of SK vs BA on the way up. Bill hits most of the major points. SK is far more scenic with great views - however, I'm wondering if the fact you're headed uphill will take away some of that. Your back will (generally) be facing the Inner Canyon so that detracts from the views. Plus I think typically you'd be looking down/ahead of you and won't get the full effect of those great views up/down canyon. Hiking down SK is another story - you can watch the canyon open up and unfold with every step.

So balance that out with everything. BA is not real scenic, at least compared to SK. The sand along the river sucks. But definitely the safer route due to heavier traffic, more water and more shade. Indian Gardens is a great rest stop.

Maybe Bill can comment on the possibility of using a combo of SK and BA? Head up SK until you reach the Tonto trail, then take that west to Indian Gardens and head up BA from there. You'd avoid the sand along the river, avoid a lot of people by taking the Tonto, and still get some great views and water access once you reach Indian Gardens. I don't know the distance, maybe a little longer overall? But you would avoid the steeper upper section of SK and wind up in the main village by doing that.

That should read "still get some great views along the way plus water access at Indian Gardens."

No personal experience with Tonto, just a suggestion for you to mull over and research.

Thanks for the info

I wonder what I could expect the temps to be starting out on the North Rim at 5:00AM?

North Rim June average high 73 low 40
Inner Canyon 101 72
South Rim 81 47

June is the driest month

So, that does appear to be fairly comfortable for hiking(if you want to call a 60 degree swing hiking for only a few miles). I suppose if I did much hiking at the bottom then it would be hot there. I would imagine it would warm into the 80s or 90s on the decent and that I would be ok on the way back up.

I think the rim to rim is the way I want to go. Should I consider skipping the North Kaibab altogether and just do it all from the south though? I really only seeing myself doing this once in a lifetime type of deal, so I want to get the most bang I can. More of a bang for the effort than the money though. lol

Although, I must say a ride on the mules later in life might not be out of the question.

I've hiked down S.Kaibab and up Bright Angel but I did it in March. I can't imagine doing it when it is hot. I've hiked part way down N Kaibab--not much scenery but I haven't been all the way.

S Kaibab is by far the most scenic of BA and SB.

I'm sure you've done some research on Havasu Falls. Have they gotten the flood damage repaired? Do you know about the danger to visitors there? It's not well publicized. My sister has her own story of terrible customer service there.

If you are planning to stay at PR you have to make reservations way out but they do have cancellations. When you call GC, be ready to tell them what/where you want to stay on the rim the day before and after, what night you will be at PR and what meals you want. You make all these res. in one phone call. Unless things have changed in the last few years, your choice for dinner is Hiker's stew or steak. I chose steak but my appetite wasn't good by the time I got down and I was wishing for stew! They do a good breakfast and you can order a lunch that is well worth it. For breakfast and dinner, you need to be ready to tell them which sitting you want.

A great site for this hike is www.hitthetrail.com