GRAND CANYON EXPERTS...YOUR ADVICE NEEDED !!!
 

As a part of our family trip to the West Coast, we are diverting to Vegas on the 17th of June for 4 nights and want to spend one of these nights at the Grand Canyon.

From what I have read, the North Rim is the more fullfilling destination over the closer Western and more crowded Southern rims. The problem is that there seems to be no available accomadation within the park and off-park lodging is a long way away.

Would it be preferable to go to the South Rim and stay in the park (limited rooms stil available) or am I better off staying outside the Park on the North side? What is the closest town to the North rim? Is it worth the effort for one night? Am I better off just getting a look at the Canyon from the closer West Rim?

Our boys are 8 and 11 so the younger one would not be allowed to do any more than a one hour mule trip at either point so we would like to know which area is more accessible by foot. I would really like to walk down into the Canyon and even do a short rafting trip if possible. We are happy to leave Vegas pre-dawn to get the most out of our first day there.

Your thoughts and suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

The north rim is much more isolated than the south rim - no hotels within an hour of the rim besides what's in park. Sounds like south rim would fit your needs.

You can take short walks into the canyon from the south rim, either the Bright Angel trail or the South Kaibab trail. The former hugs the canyon wall with switchbacks for the first few miles down, so you don't really get out into the canyon. The same distance on the Kaibab trail will take you more out into the canyon for sweeping views in many directions. I recommend you take at most a short walk (~1/2 mile) down the Bright Angel trail on the day of your arrival just to get a tiny bit below the rim, then take an early morning walk on the Kaibab trail to the 1.5 mile point your 2nd day for a longer several hour morning walk.

The in-park shuttle buses will take you around to the various lookout points, and at the time of your visit the sunsets will be at the latest point all year so you'll have plenty of time to check out the sunset.

You will get no where near the river, and even if you could you wouldn't be able to raft. There are no short rafting trips in the Grand Canyon. It's a vigorous 1/2 day trek down to the river, and essentially a full day trek back out, with a 5000 foot elevation gain. You are not allowed to overnight at the river unless you have a permit, and those get sold out long in advance. With good binoculars you can see the river off in the distance from several vantage points, but that's as close as you'll get.

<b>Would it be preferable to go to the South Rim and stay in the park (limited rooms stil available) or am I better off staying outside the Park on the North side?</b>

Better off at south rim if you can get a room inside the park or at nearby Tusayan.

<b>What is the closest town to the North rim?</b>

The Kaibab Lodge not far from the park boundary, maybe 30-40 minute drive to the rim. Also a lodge at Jacob Lake, maybe an hour (about 45 miles). Kanab is the closest 'town', it's even further. These both look OK from the outside, in a pinch (I've stayed at the north rim lodge many times but never at either of these two).

http://kaibablodge.com/index.htm
http://www.jacoblake.com/

<b>Am I better off just getting a look at the Canyon from the closer West Rim?</b>

"West Rim" is a big rip-off, it's not actually in the national park and the views are simply not as good. Las Vegas investors and the local Indian tribe have developed a part of it, with the "Skywalk", and sucker in tourist from Vegas on mostly day trips. This is nothing like the north and south rims actually in the national park.

<b>so we would like to know which area is more accessible by foot.</b>

Two trails on the south rim will get you right into the canyon quickly, Bright Angel and South Kaibab. I would suggest hiking about 1.5 miles down Kaibab to Cedar Ridge, which is about the right distance with 8 and 11 year olds and has great views.

Problem with the inner canyon trail on the north rim (North Kaibab) is that the trailhead is about 7 miles as the crow flies from the river, 14 miles walking to the river, so you don't get the wide, expansive views on north Kaibab that you get on either south rim trail. Still beautiful hiking, but you are in the trees on basically a side canyon and the views are not as impressive.

<b>Your thoughts and suggestions would be greatly appreciated</b>

1) Keep trying for the north rim, cancellations are common. But if you don't get a room on the rim I'd go to option 2 ...

2) Try for a room on the south rim inside the park, or if not available, in Tusayan.

3) Avoid the 'west rim'. If you can't get a room at either north or south rim then stay further away and just do a day trip

This is just my opinion, but: Cut Las Vegas back to 2 days. That will be plenty, especially with kids. Spend the other 2 days at the South Rim (my preferred rim) or North Rim. If you go for the North Rim for 2 days, you could also take a peed at Zion on the way.

Las Vegas is not as kid friendly as you would be led to believe.

Definitely the south rim IN the park.

Bill describes the N. Rim perfectly: "Still beautiful hiking, but you are in the trees on basically a side canyon and the views are not as impressive."

IOW, if you're looking for "fulfilling", or the "wow" factor, its at the South Rim.

While its all personal opinion, for a first time visitor, the South rim is a much better experience. Yes it will be busy, but definitely doable. The grand canyon is, well, grand; lots of room and places to go and explore. Enjoy.

Thanks for the advice, it has all been taken on board.

I decided that the South Rim in-park lodging would suit and I went back to book for 2 nights, based on Michelle's recommendation, on the Xanterra site BUT now there is no availablity for my dates!

They do have a link to a site that books trips on the Grand Canyon Railway which includes 1 night at Maswik lodge that has my interest. Your first night is spent in a town called Williams and then they transport you by train to the South Rim and back the next day. The cost does overshoot my budget somewhat but it may be a good experience. Has anyone heard anything about this trip. Here is a link to thier site... https://www.thetrain.com/reservation...e=packages#top

My next option is a hotel in Tusayan. How far is that to the Rim and what time can I enter and leave the park?

<b>a link to a site that books trips on the Grand Canyon Railway</b>

Noooooo! The Train and the Skywalk are the two biggest tourist traps in Arizona. Since you already have a rental car you would be paying hundreds of dollars more to ride the train, with the only benefit that you'd get a room 1/4 mile from the rim.

(Actually since you're overnighting and have kids the Train isn't as big a rip-off as it is for the childless doing a day-trip. The kids might enjoy the 'train robbery' shootout ... and people doing a day trip are only at the rim for 3 hours mid-day, the worst possible time to be there. At least you will be there for sunrise and sunset, though I'd rather have a car so I could drive the east rim road. So it could be worse. But still absurdly more expensive.)

<b>My next option is a hotel in Tusayan. How far is that to the Rim and what time can I enter and leave the park?</b>

Tusayan is a couple hundred yards from the park entrance but about 7 miles from the first overlooks inside the canyon, which usually takes 15-20 minutes to drive. The entrance station is manned during the day but you can enter any time, ie, when not manned the gates are always left open. You can have traffic backups up to 30 minutes mid-day at the entrance, unfortunately, but no problem getting in early.

In general I prefer staying inside the park (ideally on the rim) but Tusayan works fine and the hotels have some advantages ... some have free internet, several have pools (good for kids mid-day), a couple have free breakfasts, and all are within walking distance of the IMAX theatre, which shows a GC movie with some exciting river running scenes. There are also fast foot restaurants like McDonald's, Wendy's and Taco Bell in Tusayan, in case you want quick meals.

Holiday Inn Express and Best Western Squire Inn are 2 we like in Tusayan.

Looks like it will be Tusayan. The Best Western Squire has a Bowling alley/Games room and includes breakfast.

As long as we can get to the Rim to see the sunrise and sunset this will probably work fine.

I like the train idea but it gets back to Williams just before 6pm and we have to drive from Vegas to Yosemite the next day so it really isn't that practical.

Thanks for your help Bill, Ellen , Michelle and J62. It's great to have "friends" in the know!

We stayed both in Tusayan (for one night when we could not get an in-park reservation)and in one of the park motels. The latter was definitely much better. Often if you keep trying to call for reservations in the park, rooms will open up closer to your stay.

Sunsets and sunrises at the canyon are both spectacular. Early in the morning there are not many people up and about and it is a nice time to enjoy the south rim.

My brother and sister-in-law took the train from Williams to the GC one day and thought it was enjoyable. I would definitely not do that for just a few hours at the rim but a trip that includes an overnight in the park would make more sense.

At the GC, the Tusayan museum along the south rim has information about the native American people who lived in the area. The ranger programs at the Canyon are varied and interesting.

I second MichelleY's observation that Las Vegas is not kid-friendly. On the other hand, the kids would probably enjoy seeing the Hoover Dam en route from LV to the south rim. You can also see some sections of Rte 66.

If there are no rooms available on the Xanterra web site, try calling their their 1-800 number and you may get lucky and get a cancellation.
1-888-297-2757 Try calling every day or every couple of days.

Go ahead and book rooms at Tusayan, just to make sure you have someplace close to stay. But keep trying for in-park lodges. At least twice a day on their website and call once a day. There are always cancellations, so you will likely be able to get something inside the park. Then just cancel the Tusayan reservation.

The problem with being in Tusayan is that, even though you are pretty close, EVERYONE has to be ready before you can leave for the GC. When you stay inside the park, if only one or two of you are ready, you can just walk out your door and you are right there.

Bill H .. I remember the park entrance being a decent distance from the Rim .... Am I remembering this correctly? so if that is the case, then ShaneK may want to get up really earlyt o be there for sunrise. Just thinking . would hate to have them miss it by 1/2 hour or so :)

I agree as well .. South Kaibab is great .. wemade it as far as Skeleton Point carrying the 5 month old and 2 year old ... but it was October and not nearly as June may be .. nor as crowded. have fun . it is a great place.

We have also done the airplane ride over the Gc Canyon ... very cool.

The rim is a ways from the entrance, but not more than 5 minutes by car.

Until the sun is actually above the horizon, the canyon is various shades of gray. It is after sunrise, for about the next hour, that the walls and formations take on changing colors. So it would be a bit of a waste of time getting to the rim much before sunrise.

<b>Bill H .. I remember the park entrance being a decent distance from the Rim .... Am I remembering this correctly?</b>

The south entrance station (south rim) is just a few hundred yards north of Tusayan, but then it's about 7 miles drive to Mather Point, the first overlook. Not sure if you can still drive directly to Mather or if you have to park and walk or catch a shuttle (this keeps changing).

On the north rim the entrance station is even further from the first overlooks.

I meant to take a "peek" at Zion, not take a pee.

Agree with the above to book Tusayan, but keep trying for in the park. It worked for us at both the North & South Rims and Bryce.

Also agree on avoiding the train from Williams.

I think taking a Pee in the Canyon will be high on my list. Bladder not quite what it used to be!!!

I have booked Best Western Squire but will keep trying for the park. If given a choice, which lodge would you choose?

el Tovar is the nicest property on the rim. Otherwise also on the rim, I would choose Thunderbird, Kachina, or Bright Angle (only BA if I got a cabin or room with its own bathroom). Yavapai and Maswick are about a 5 minute walk from the rim. All except el Tovar are typical national park lodgings, clean, basic, no frills motel type places in a fantastic location.

Bill H .. thanks for the distance update :)

Shanek .. reconsider Zion .. it deserves way more than "a Peek" .... the hike up the narrows is awesome .. as long as you don't mind getting wet.

What ever you .. enjoy .. the GC is a magical place.

El Tovar is definitely the nicest lodging in the park.It and Bright Angel are registered national historic landmarks. It is worth checking out these buildings even if you don't stay at either.

I have read all comments with great enthusiasm since I know that I have found the help I need to make the most of my trip to the GC.Can someone advise me of the route to take from Vegas and whether I can do it in a rented car.We are visiting from Greece this summer

The roads from Vegas to the GC are all fine for any rental car. Multi lane, divided highway most of the way, and 2 to 4 road (high speed) the last 50 or so miles.

From Las Vegas there really is only one route

I-215 to Henderson NV,
US-93 across the Hoover Dam, to Kingman AZ
I-40 to Williams AZ, then
AZ-64 to the Grand Canyon.

QED.

A second route convenient from Vegas is to the north rim of the GC via Utah. Most people combine stays at Zion and/or Bryce National Parks with the north rim.

All four of these (Bryce, Zion, GC north rim, GC south rim) are very different from each other and worth visiting.

I called Xantera last week and got a room with a canyon view when their website said there was nothing available where I wanted to stay. So, my advice is to call directly. Good luck.

The only mule rides are all day affairs down to the bottom of the canyon and back the next day which need to be booked months ahead of time. There aren't any one hour rides, which is kind of too bad as they might be fun, but there is a stable nearby offering horseback rides of an hour, though not into the canyon.

If you want to splurge and wow your kids, take them on a helicopter tour of the canyon. There seem to be dozens of them.

Have fun!

In addition to the rides to the bottom of the canyon, there are also 3hr rides through the forest to the Abyss overlook.

http://www.grandcanyonlodges.com/mule-trips-716.html

<b>The only mule rides are all day affairs down to the bottom of the canyon and back the next day which need to be booked months ahead of time</b>

This sounds like the south rim trips to Phantom Ranch.

In addition to these, on the south rim there are mule trips to Indian Gardens/Plateau Point and back, which are day trips.

Also, on the north rim there are several flavors and lengths of day trips using mules, but no overnight trips.

Unfortunately there are no longer mule rides to Indian Gardens and Plateau Point. These were cancelled last year.
The only trips into the canyon are the overnight rides to Phantom Ranch. And the NPS is proposing to limiting the number of mules to 10 a day. So they are drastically cutting back the mule rides. Pretty soon you won't be able to do it at all. #$%^&*!!!!
Giddyup

There is a 3 hour mule ride at the South Rim and several rides at the North Rim.

Nice catch Gilbert56 ... here's an article in the Phoenix paper from last month describing the new options (this article makes it sound like things are still in 'discussion stage' though).

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...ule-rides.html

An earlier article mentioned that it costs the Park Service over $2,000,000/year to maintain the Kaibab and Bright Angel trails, with most of the damage coming from mules due to their heavy weight and sharp hooves. Xanterra takes in $2,700,000 from the mule riding concession but paid only $100,000 of the $2.7M in concessionaire fees in 2008.

http://www.azcentral.com/travel/arti...mules0927.html

As a strong hiker who often had to wait behind mule trains if there was no place to pass, and who hated walking thru/around the small lakes of urine and crap the mules left on the trail, I won't miss them much, especially on Bright Angel with all the Plateau Point traffic. But they will be missed as a historical link to the early miners.

I personally would skip the Abyss ride on the rim. You can take the west rim shuttle to the Abyss and get the exact same viewpoint.

I find it hard to believe they spend 2 million a year on a trail.

<b>I find it hard to believe they spend 2 million a year on a trail</b>

One of those articles said <i>"Thirty employees work full time on maintaining the trails year-round. Sixty more are used seasonally and part time."</i>

I'm just guessing at wages but if full-time government employees make $30,000 and part-timers $10,000 then that's already $1,500,000 in wages alone.

I used to hike south-to-north rim in late May every year (when the north rim lodge first opens), spend the night and hike back the 2nd day. Twice in years of heavy snowfall large sections of the north Kaibab simply fell off the face of the cliff and up to 1/2 mile of the trail thru the Supai formation had to be rebuilt. One year they didn't open in time and we had to cancel the lodge, another year they opened the day we went through and there were 20 mules and two little front loader Bobcats still working when we passed. Looked like 50 people digging and grading and stacking stones when we went by. I wouldn't want to be the guy to drive the Bobcat down that trail, too easy to flip it.

Also every few years Bright Angel creek floods and washes out parts of the trail, and once when I was hiking rim-to-rim a rockslide destroyed one of the footbridges across BA creek in the Box (just above Phantom Ranch). So a lot goes wrong due to erosion and flooding on all three maintained trails, and it's very labor intensive to fix since almost everything has to be done by hand.

The NPS says they are still in the "discussion" stage, but I can guarantee they have already made the final decision.
This "discussion" stage is to make it look like everybody gets their say.
No more Plateau Point mule rides and only 10 mules allowed down to Phantom Ranch.

Giddyup

Gilbert,

I hope you are right but from watching how these eco-friendly vs big-business dramas play out at the GC over the past 20 years I've become a bit cynical. Big bucks usually wins out over more ecological concerns because of the politics.

Example # 1 was the flight-seeing fiasco, where because of safety and noise pollution problems the Park Service wanted to cut back heavily on flights after a spate of fatal crashes. This *almost* became law but was blocked by politicians from Az and Nevada at the Federal level. Some good changes were made (higher overflights, no flights over heavily used corridors, quieter choppers, etc) but the net effect was actually MORE flights than before as the Park Service compromised.

Example # 2 was the river rafting regulations 'discussed' a few years back. Park Service wanted fewer motorized rafts to protect beaches and for noise reasons, fewer trips allocated to concessioners, and more trips allocated to private boaters, who face a 10 year wait list.

When it appeared this might get implemented politicians stepped in and the Park Service backed off. As an example of the pressures, one Utah US senator has a bill blocking park funding if motorized trips are eliminated. Look at the list of concessionaires and you'll see his family name listed (xxxxx River Expeditions) as owners of a company doing mostly motorized trips. The Park Service backed off the more radical changes, basically widening the season to get more people thru even though the weather is often too cold during the new early dates.

So maybe there isn't enough money involved with the mule trips to warrant bringing in the politicos, but if they get involved because of the $$$ lost you'll hear a song and dance about Brighty the Mule and his historic importance, and PETA will raise hell that these new rules will mean 100 hard-working mules are out of a job and destined for the glue factory, and the Park Service will get a few more bucks for trail maintenance, and little will change.

Bill,
I hope you are right, but "me thinks not".
More than 1 flightseeing company. Many voices.
More than 1 river rafting company. Many voices.
Only 1 mule operator. Only 1 voice.
I have done 4 mule trips to Phantom Ranch and hope to do more in the future. I hope the NPS sees fit to keep them.

Giddyup

One of my very favorite things I have done in a National Park is Canyoneering in Arches with Desert Highlights. They were the only concessionaire and have operated there for 13 years without any accidents or incidents. New Park Superintendent isn't allowing them in this year. They really stressed staying on the trail and not damaging anything.

Bill_H, thats really interesting; thanks for posting. For years i subscribed to the 'official' Nat'l Parks magazine but have been out of the loop for awhile. Not sure it's even still published? Wonder what else is happening to our other beloved nat'l parks that we don't know, in addition to the public "loving them to death".