Don't read this if you're afraid to fly
 

<BR>www.airsafetyonline.com -- a really good site. If you read their reports about Air Tran you'll never even consider flying with them.

A Value Jet by any other name is still a Value Jet. And looking ahead, DC Air will probably take the same (glide) path ... what does media management have to do with that type of air management?

I'm curious about who runs this website? Is it a watchdog group? Someone who has lots of stock in an airline that would benefit from negative press for other airlines. Some of the stuff there is pretty seemy, and yea, if you're afraid to fly, it won't make you feel any better about it.

Also peaked my curiousilty as to to was running this site, so I lloked it up on www.networksolutions.com, under "who is" (where you actually buy & register your domain names), this is what I found: <BR> <BR>Organization: <BR> Lethal Interactive <BR> Dan Rupp <BR> 6625 Victoria Drive <BR> Oak Forest, IL 60452 <BR> US <BR> Phone: 708-687-8023 <BR> Fax..: 708-687-8023 <BR> Email: [email protected] <BR> <BR> Registrar Name....: Register.com <BR> Registrar Whois...: whois.register.com <BR> Registrar Homepage: http://www.register.com <BR> <BR> Domain Name: AIRSAFETYONLINE.COM <BR> <BR> Created on..............: Wed, May 24, 2000 <BR> Expires on..............: Thu, May 24, 2001 <BR> Record last updated on..: Thu, Sep 21, 2000 <BR> <BR> Administrative Contact: <BR> Lethal Interactive <BR> Dan Rupp <BR> 6625 Victoria Drive <BR> Oak Forest, IL 60452 <BR> US <BR> Phone: 708-687-8023 <BR> Fax..: 708-687-8023 <BR> Email: [email protected] <BR> <BR> Technical Contact: <BR> Lethal Interactive <BR> Dan Rupp <BR> 6625 Victoria Drive <BR> Oak Forest, IL 60452 <BR> US <BR> Phone: 708-687-8023 <BR> Fax..: 708-687-8023 <BR> Email: [email protected] <BR> <BR> Zone Contact: <BR> Lethal Interactive <BR> Dan Rupp <BR> 6625 Victoria Drive <BR> Oak Forest, IL 60452 <BR> US <BR> Phone: 708-687-8023 <BR> Fax..: 708-687-8023 <BR> Email: [email protected] <BR> <BR> Domain servers in listed order: <BR> <BR> NS.SITEPROTECT.COM 64.26.0.23 <BR> NS2.SITEPROTECT.COM 64.26.38.2 <BR> <BR> <BR>Is this the boy you cried wolf? or for real?

Lisa, is it necessary to list his telephone numbers? What was your point? Perhaps he's attempting to increase air safety awareness. Do you have some information concerning why he created that website? But more to the point, lets hear from some other folks about that airline .. and yes, it was Value Jet before, when it crashed in the Florida swamp due to the dangerous cargo it carried. It wsa at that time run by a small group in Atlanta who made profits. We used them until it just became too inconvenient - they never left or arrived on time, never. Just stretched too thin. And then Florida happened a few months later. As I say, perhaps his site will servesome purpose. Crying wolf ... perhaps someone should have spoken up before the crash. We seem to be very reactive in this country.

For what it's worth, my next door neighbor is an executive with the FAA. He flies AirTran often. I don't fly them because I'm a Continental guy...

Well, for what it's worth, I'm with the DOT in DC, and in a position to know, and anyone who knows how FAA operates and its current problems, would shake their heads at your statement. FAA has been miserable, and no wonder Congress authorized the Administrator to hold a five-year term .. to lend some stability and good management to an organization that has been part of the safety problem in the US. You'll notice that Jane Garvey has announced she will continue in her position as required by law, even though the new Administration would probably like to put their own person in there (and Minetta will have nothing to say about it). If anyone from FAA flies Air Tran, then they are closing their eyes again ... a familiar action at the FAA.

Is it possible Dan Rupp is a disgruntled former United employee?

Interesting topic and replies, especially from our gov't posters. As a frequent traveler, private pilot and aviation enthusiast I have read a lot of anecdotal info over the years and the net of it is my confidence in the FAA is synonymous with C at the DOT. There is a lot of acrimony between NTSB and FAA over safety issues and it usually takes a body count for FAA to act--always reactive, not proactive. <BR> <BR>As far as the site referenced, it is interesting but I found it to be a bit sensationalistic. I prefer www.airsafe.com where the information is presented in a more clinical fashion. From my initial review of the site referenced above, I think airsafe also has more useful information on passenger safety. <BR> <BR>Just my $0.02 opinion.

What article on Airtran are you guys looking at on that site? The one from August of 2000 effectively blaming a separate company for the crash? <BR> <BR>And I wouldn't hesitate to get on an Airtran plane. I figure that they must be the most careful carrier out there. One more crash and they're out of business.

Brian, Value Jet knowingly allowed that shipping firm to place the oxydizers onboard their plane, in violation of FAA rules. Value Jet admitted they were alseep at the wheel - the suits blames the collars. And rather than step up and take SOME of the responsibility, Value Jet played the Ford-Firestone SUV-tire game and blamed the shipper for everything. Yes, the courts ultimately faulted the shipper .. a technicality if there ever was one. Value Jet of course hired a media outfit out of NYC and reinvented itself and took a new name. But please, lets have none of that argument about their now having to be careful due to the one-more-crash theory. That was used extensively at the time, and no one I know will set foot on one of their planes now. I realize AT/VJ is based in Atalanta. It's like saying hey, we killed a plane-load of people, and now we have to be serious about air safety. The least bit cynical, do you think?

To DM (above): <BR> <BR>I only posted what was registered under www.networksolutions.com. When you make a public website, you list your contact information, and it is available for all to see. I did not go searching for his home phone number. Someone inquired about who was running this site and I looked it up 1-2-3. I was curious as well, as you cant believe everything you read on the internet. <BR> <BR>I too am a website owner, and my information is listed as well. If I didnt want people to see it I wouldnt have listed it. Simple as that.

I fly AirTran weekly (live in Atlanta) and have never had any real problems with them. Yes, they really botched that Miami flight when they were ValuJet. American, Continental, Delta, TWA, United, etc etc etc have all had multiple fatal crashes. They're all good carriers, but accidents do happen and all we can do is learn from them. I believe AirTran has had sufficient government oversight and is now running a good operation. It's up to each passenger to decide which carrier to fly and I'm okay sticking with AirTran. <BR> <BR>AirTran is the launch carrier for the new Boeing 717 and it's a great aircraft! I have to admit I feel better on a 717 than I do the older DC-9s.

DC, I agree that Value Jet is not blameless in that crash. But if you never fly with an airline that has had a crash, you'd have a hard time getting anywhere. <BR> <BR>Say what you want about Airtran's name change and transformation, but it was a ingenious business move. <BR> <BR>And BTW, Airtran is headquartered in Orlando, not Atlanta.

I heard, possibly incorrectly, that the guys who created VJ lived in Atlanta. HQ is in Orlando .. did someboby move? Sell out? I don't mean to disagree, but I couldn't agree less about their brilliant corporate strategy ... the name change is just standard stuff when things go awry ... but normally the top folks stand up first and say their mea culpas. So, if it worked, what was it that worked, I wonder? Did it amount to hiding under a different banner and hoping people would either forget or get confused? We have our own gathering storm here in Washington ... DC Air. By the way, if you can access the Washington Post, check out the letters to the editors today ... about how US Airways pulled in NY what they are about to pull in DC, with United's help. It really helps the big boys to keep the VJ's around to offer some semblance of competition.

I never said it was an honorable thing to do, but that move to acquire Airtan and use their name saved that airline. They were on the brink of financial ruin and have now posted something like 7 straight quarters of profits. <BR> <BR>Had they kept the Valujet name and insignia, they would not have made it. <BR>Have they benefitted from disassociating themselves from the name Valujet? It's undeniable.

I was curious and looked up the site. Basically, the ValueJet article, written about 2-3months ago, states that the airline continues to violate safety regulations. That's is supposed to be from an FAA point-of-view, which from what I read here, may not carry a lot of weight. Personally, with so much controversy surrounding it, I say better safe than sorry. I won't fly it.

I forgot to mention that I looked up airsafe.com also. It's an interesting site also.

Sal, help me out here. I'm probably just being a bonehead, but I can't find that article you refer to. Can you give me a more specific address? Thanks.

Is Air Trans's management and ownership the same that managed Value Jet? Or, did new owners' take over?

If I remember correctly, ValuJet (of Atlanta) purchased AirTran Airlines (of Orlando) and renamed ValuJet as AirTran Airways. They operated two companies with the same name for a little while and eventually merged the two under the same AirTran Airways banner.

Brian, <BR> <BR>There is a search panel on the home page. Search for the article titled, "Air Safety Online: In Depth: Air Tran 956-Fire in the Sky". Particularly disturbing is the information toward the end of the article.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm looking more at what type of aircraft the flight is on. I know it is no guarantee (wouldn't have helped in V.J. crash, for instance) but we won't fly any old models anymore. Generally they are bought off a more mainstream airine by a start-up or budget airline, and re-habbed. And do these budget airlines have good or enough mechanics that can repair and maintain them properly? We were booking a trip to Hawaii on Pleasant Hawaii Holidays (newish charter flying direct to Hawaii from Chicago) at an excellent price, around Christmastime, no less, when we saw that they were flying a Lockheed plane!! Haven't been making them for years! We stopped right there and changed to American (not non-stop, however) on a 757. As I said, no guarantees, but we felt better! BTW, we paid for it, as well!

Just to add a note or two. I believe your scenario about VJ and ATA is correct ... I now see ATA landing at Reagan National every few minutes. About five years ago the DOT Inspector General wrote a scathing report about FAA's ineptitude. She testified before Congress over a 2-3 year period. She was not supported by the DOT Secretary ... she was undercut by the DOT senior management. She was eventually hounded out of DOT, but not before she had established a very good record of the problems at FAA. I must tell you that FAA was a disgrace. And a dangerous accomplice, at least that is my opinion. At this time, Congress claims it has tried to take the politics out of FAA .. the FAA administrator now holds her position for five years. If you want to get a sense of the VJ crash, visit the NTSB website and check up on their VJ investigation and the voice recoder record. Under Chairman Hall, NTSB attempted to do professional investigations and call them like they saw them. VJ is certainly not blameless, and I would suggest that the belief the name change saved them as a company may be quite beside the point ... what argument was given at the time for their continuing? They were grossly stupid in relying on uneducated people of another firm to decide what to stow in their cargo holds. The pilots of that doomed plane must have wondered what the hell was happening.

I would have written my real email name but after 2 1/2 years on this board trying to help people,etc.-received a virus that was obviously sent from one of the fodors forum people.(This has been a super place to meet fellow travelers and swap opinions and insights so what has happened?) <BR>Anyway-my husband(767 captain) and myself(flight attendant) with 29 and 28 years respectively WOULD NOT SEND A UPS <BR>PACKAGE ON AIR TRAN!!!!Please realize that Air Tran is just repackaged and is still having violations. There are times to go cut rate and then there are times to decide how much you want to play "russian roulette". For those of you who say that flying any major carrier is russian roulette-think again! Experience,accountability and great mechanics are the difference.

Melody, <BR> <BR>We have two close friends, one an AA pilot and one a UPS pilot, who concur. As they say, you get what you pay for. My guess is that you're not paying for meticulous maintenance. As one poster suggests, depending on the airline, we avoid flying on old aircraft. In the article that originally started this discussion, one of the issues cited is the age of AT's fleet. That, plus lax upkeep and maintenance are a formula for disaster.

melody and others in the airline industry. <BR> <BR>Friends of friends or family who work for the airlines get "Buddy" tickets that allow them free to nominal (e.g., $25) tickets on a standby/available basis. <BR> <BR>How does that work at Continental. Other carriers. I heard each employee gets 2 buddy tickets per month; they can be given to anyone. <BR> <BR>What is your carriers policy?

interesting discussion

To those of you who think that working for an airline nowdays is a deal-think again! We get on after everyone else(including the visa free miles,etc.).Our airline is always full so my family and I haven't really been anywhere since last summer. As far as buddy passes-at our airline we get only a few a year and they still cost quite alot(so much a mile)and you are <BR>still flying space available. I think the following story sums up travel benefits: <BR>I had to go take my son for a college visit this past fall-We had to pay $198.00 each for what they call an ID90 (it was also space available so we did not know if we could even get on till the last minute). We got to the college and found out that a"regular" person got <BR>on priceline for the same route and paid <BR>$139.00 a <BR> ticket on the same airline and she knew she had a seat for sure.Enough said!

As a final note, you may access the following site which presents comprehensive data on ValuJet Flight 592: Http://www.flight592.com/welcome.htm. <BR> <BR>At that site, if you access the NTSB final report on the crash of 592, look at conclusion #38 on page 133, where the NTSB concluded that ValuJet's failure to properly supervise the firm that loaded the oxydizer cannisters aboard the doomed jet was a factor in causing the crash. This is only one in a very long list of conclusions. This is not to suggest that this was the only flaw. The year after the crash (which occurred May 11, 1996), ValuJet ceased to exist, as it merged with AirTran on September 24, 1997. The AirTran corporate history does not include any information about their prior existence. Another corporate success story perhaps?

i like cheese

Bringing this up again because of the recent posts regarding AirTran (formerely ValuJet)

I rarely fly, but when I do, I only use USAirways. I come from a major hub city of theirs (Pittsburgh) and I feel safe on this airline. I will never get on one of the many small carriers.

Well thanks people. We're flyin air-tran in May from Philly to Tampa and I'm not cancelling again. Had to cancel last Sept. after the attacks. I'm just hoping we're on the newer planes, with no cargo.