If he is going to make a successful move to San Francisco, he (and you) need to quit comparing it to what he has in Chicago. That just isn't going to happen.

Besides Berkeley you'll may also want to check Oakland.

I mentioned Burlingame on this thread a few days ago. My 20something daughter just moved out of her apartment there and she loved it. Her one bedroom apt. was $1300.

Wow, thanks for all the help. He just forwarded me a craiglist ad for an apartment in a Victorian that looked beautiful and not horrendously expensive but it is in Haight Ashbury! Isn't that like, drug dealer, down-and-out scarysville?

Where in the Haight? And no Haight-Ashbury is not "drug dealer, down-and-out scarysville". Haight Street itself can seem crappy with lots of young, homeless, street people hanging out, but the Haight has some very, very expensive homes (think multiple millions) and some very beautiful Victorians within its confine. Hence the question about where in the Haight?

Nope, that's not correct at all. Mission District and the Haight would be two neighborhoods I'd love to live in if I could afford them.

I live 10 mins from downtown sf and pay $2050 for a two bedroom appartment
be expected to pay for 1 bedroom 1400 and up and for a two bedroom 1700-2500

In the city, I'd vote for Cole Valley although I'm not 20-something. :-)

If the only real consideration (other than cost) is being able to get to the airport easily, remember airporters.

There is Marin Airporter that services all of Marin County - it takes about 1-1/2 hours barring traffic issues to get from Novato to SFO on the airporter.

There is Sonoma County Airport Express that services Sonoma County to SFO or Oakland - it takes about 2-1/4 hours from Santa Rosa to SFO and 2-3/4 hours from Santa Rosa to Oakland.

There are others that service the different Bay Area regions.

The Victorian in the Haight might be a good idea. We were visiting family recently in S.F. and my niece took my son (both age 18) to the Haight Ashbury district one day to hang out. They like the little shops and cafes there. It's a young scene. Lots of S.F. music history there. Some burnouts from the 60s, too, but that's inevitable.
:)>-

trippinkpj--Cole Valley is wonderful, but it not a post-college single neighborhood. Too expensive. Lots of younger couples, however. Most of the younger, singles live closer to Haight or the panhandle. Cole Valley used to be filled with med students from UCSF, but not anymore. Many of the apartments have gone TIC or condo.

Burlingamers--I was just razzing you. It depends on the individual, of course, whether he/she would enjoy that environment. I *do* think that unless a young person is a committed suburbia-lover and/or has a family, he/she might as well start out in SF--or even Berk/Oak and--then decide "Hey, I'd rather be someplace more relaxing."

Of course if I wanted relaxing I would hightail it to Marin. :D

I don't think Haight is terrible. A bit grotty, but not dangerous. SF is a small, <b>extremely</b> gentrified city; most neighborhoods have some sort of mix--or are simply upscale. He's not going to live in Bayview or anything. Although I know artistes, etc., who have already started migrating out that way.

SAB--I saw on another post you like DaFlora. You are one of the only Fodorites I've ever seen mention it. I love the food there and the wine list is great! That gnocchi appetizer is heavenly.

Interesting info SAB, about Cole Valley. I spent over a week in the area when my DH was in the hospital at UCSF.

All of these people that are calling SF gentrified must live somewhere else. SF has one of the worst law and order records anywhere in CA and a huge amount of drug and sex tourism. You'd have to be blind not to notice the prevalence of people sleeping on the street... more than NYC, more than LA... that's what happens when you create a city around an attitude of tolerance. Not that I'm bashing it, it's wonderful, but let's be realistic bay area people.

As usual, someone with the name &quot;BOSTONstrangler&quot; knows more about San Francisco than the people who live in and around it.

Sorry, posted before I finished: this is nonsense.

As I've said above, I know several young people who live scattered all over San Francisco in different neighborhoods, it's a great city for young people.

Our sons moved to SF after college and were roommates. They love the City. After several years one decided to come back to the beach in LA, but the other stayed. He lives in the Richmond district. Has always had to have a couple roomies to aford a flat. He likes this area (has been in several in SF) because he can find a parking place for his car everyday. Many streets have parking rules where you have to move your car day after day for street sweeping. Lots of parking tickets if you forget to go move your car early on a Tuesday morning.

We lived in the Noe Valley when we were in our 20/30s &amp; loved it. We're in our very late 50s now and have lived on the Burlingame/San Mateo border for the past 26 years (the area with restuarnats/cute shops that others have mentioned is a 10 min walk away).

However, we go into San Francisco for almost all of our entertainment - dinner, movies, shopping, hanging out, long walks, etc. Often when we return home after a night in the City - places like the Marina, North Beach, Union St, Mission, are very active with 20 year olds walking around and enjoying themselves in the City. As we drive up Burlingame Ave (shere the local stuff is located), things are dead on week-days, and barely alive on Saturdays. There are more places for a 20 YO in Burlingame than there were just 10 years ago - but still NOTHING like the City.

Regarding crime - most of that is confined to areas in the City that your son will probably never see. We've been here for 32 years, and never had an occasion to drive through the area in the City where most of the crime occurs. Sure - there are too many unsightful vagrants on the streets - but most of them are annoying but pretty harmless. If your son lives in Chicago, he won't have any problems with &quot;threatening&quot; people in San Francisco.

My wife &amp; I moved to San Francisco from the LA area 32 years ago. We both agree that moving here was the single most positive thing we ever did in our married lives (not counting getting married to each other - and we don't have kids). Don't have your son miss the opportunity - live in SF or Berkeley/Rockridge (I much prefer SF).

Stu Dudley

<i>As we drive up Burlingame Ave (shere the local stuff is located), things are dead on week-days, and barely alive on Saturdays. There are more places for a 20 YO in Burlingame than there were just 10 years ago - but still NOTHING like the City</i>

Stu and I usually agree on these things, but not on this one. While I agree that Burlingame Ave. is NOTHING like the City, I completely DISagree that it is dead on weekdays (even during the day) and barely alive on Saturdays. In fact, I regularly marvel at the vibrancy of this very decidedly suburban downtown area. Just go into Peet's or Starbuck's and you'll see what I mean. (I still think your son should live in the city, but that's because I think the suburbs aren't meant for 20-somethings).

Hey, it is fun to see some of my regular Fodor's Europe people helping me out! My husband and I have made reservations to fly to SF in early January and meet him there for a long weekend of 'house' hunting. I know he would love to live in SF proper but paying over $2000 for a one bedroom is going to be too much. Also, he has a car and will need parking. We all continue to look on craigslist for ideas, although it is too early to jump on something. Thanks again for all the ideas. It is helping so much!

rbnwdln, that's a great idea! If he's certain that the city itself will be too expensive, I'd suggest you drive to each of the mentioned towns, and have a cup of coffee or a meal and a walk to see what kind of &quot;vibe&quot; he gets (that's how we chose Burlingame 20 years ago). Also, you (and he) should keep in mind that the weather differs, particularly in summer, from town to town --- San Francisco is an area of microclimates. Palo Alto is much warmer than Burlingame which is much warmer than Daly City, for example. There's also more fog in certain areas than in others. So, you could check out University Avenue in Palo Alto, 3rd and 4th Avenues in San Mateo, Burlingame Avenue in Burlingame (Broadway in Burlingame, too), Telegraph Avenue in Berkeley, Elm Street (I think that's the name of the street) in North Berkeley, etc.

At night everyone must be inside Starbucks or Petes (or hanging around just outiside the entrances) on Burlingame Ave, because I don't see dozens &amp; dozens of them walking around the streets at 10pm in the evening like they do in the City.

We're heading into the City tonight, and I'll give it another look when we drive back home - just like we did last Saturday &amp; the Saturday before that.

Actually, I think Burlingame Ave was more alive (in the evening) in the past when there were more &quot;music&quot; venues. Remember the lines-to-get-in at Banyon Bay (I think that was the name) where Il Fornaio is now located? Lines-to-get-in seemed to have vanished at Hola's too, and Towles' music stopped when it closed, along with Alexander's &amp; Fanney's. There was a nightclub with music on the second floor above Fox Plaza at one time - but not now. Perhaps nightclubs have gotten larger and crowds are inside now &amp; not flowing out into the street. I don't follow the &quot;club&quot; scene - so I really don't know.

Stu Dudley

easytraveler I live in Sebastopol and spend the weekends in the Marina. I've lived in or around SF for 5 years.

Good idea to spend a long weekend of house hunting. And have a plan of the areas you want to look at.

If your time is limited, I wouldn't spend a weekend house hunting - I'd spend a few <u>weekdays</u> house hunting. The differences between access/traffic/parking on weekends and weekdays can be very dramatic.

If he plans to maintain a car, that's yet another reason (besides the exhorbitant rents) to look outside the city. I've mentioned it before, but Oakland is where several of my friends live.

Another thought is looking in any direction where BART connects his home neighborhood to his work.

Stu, I think we're talking apples and oranges. I wasn't referred to late-night activity (of which you're right there isn't much). I was speaking more of general activity -- say, up until 10 p.m. Which is, of course, typical suburbs, just that Burlingame Ave. happens to be more &quot;alive&quot; than a lot of suburban main streets, at least until the streets are rolled up at 10.

&gt;&gt;at least until the streets are rolled up at 10.&lt;&lt;

OK - I see. You're right - there is a lot of activity along the Avenue around noon (lunch), and before early dinner at 6:30-7. I always plan on getting to Copenhagen no later than 11:30 if I want lunch &amp; don't want to wait in a line.

Last night we drove down the Avenue at 9:40 PM after dinner in the City. Not many people at Straits, nobody at all outside at Sarbucks (that's unusual), and only a few people inside. There were only 7 people total walking along Burlingame Ave at that time - all men.

We had dinner in the Presidio at Pres a Vi. We drove down Chestnut a little after 9 &amp; it was mobbed - perhaps 200 young people going from venue to venue (I presume). You could tell that the Christmas party scene had started because there were lots of young women outfitted to the &quot;T&quot; in ther dresses, and trying to hail cabs. Same with the Bermuda Triangle in front of Balboa Cafe on Fillmore, and Union St too - but only about 70% as many people on Union as on Chestnut. Lots of people in the Hayes Valley as we crossed Hayes on Gough to get on the freeway home.

If I were 25 &amp; single (or even married), I know where I would spend my time.

Stu Dudley

&gt;&gt;Another thought is looking in any direction where BART connects his home neighborhood to his work.&lt;&lt;

Suze - he works from home. Being near BART is good for access to the airport - he travels quite a bit.

janisj - parking &amp; driving in the City is easier on weekends than on weekdays. There is no 2 hr &quot;restricted&quot; parking on weekends, and often they have open houses for rentals on Sundays.

We owned two cars the entire time we lived in the Noe Valley in SF. The friends we &quot;ran around&quot; with, owned cars also.

Between now &amp; New Years, the housing market is a little dead because people don't want to move around Christmas &amp; New Years. There are noticeably fewer adds in the paper. Wait till at least the 2nd week of January to look.

Eastern half of the Noe Valley, Glen Park, and the Mission have walking access to BART. Bernal Heights, Southern Mission, Noe Valley, Potrero Hill, &amp; Glen Park are convenient to Hwy 101 &amp; the airport.

If I were a 25 YO preppy, I would live in the Marina or near Union St or on Russion Hill. All those neighborhoods are a little pricy, however. If I were a preppy bordering nerdy-hipster, I would live in the Mission, Haight (Page/Oak) or Inner Sunset (9th &amp; Irving) - rents are a little more reasonable there. I'm actually 60 years old - so my memory of what 25YOs are like is a little faded. My comments are based on what I see when we walk or drive through these areas.

Stu Dudley

Stu: I meant, one <b>really</b> needs to see the traffic/access on normal work days, not on weekends when things are slow. I don't know how many people I know who bought/rented after seeing a place on a weekend only to discover the school run makes access just about impossible twice a day, or there is absolutely no parking w/i 6 or 7 blocks.

janisi - wish we could look during the week but we work, too, and can only take a few days off. Actually, we will arrive in SF on Wed. night and look on Thurs, Fri, and Sat. Our son will start scoping out the area in December when he is out there for work. We plan on looking in Oakland, Berekley, and that area, as well as SF, although there doesn't seem to be much hope with prices and needing a place to park. Again, he is working out of a home office and has to visit some company in Walnut Creek as part of his job.

hit post too soon. I have one friend who literally cannot get out of his driveway between 0830 and 0930 or between 1400 and 1500 M-F because of bumper to bumper traffic to/from 2 nearby schools.

our last posts &quot;crossed&quot;. At least you have a Thurs and Fri. Fridays are especially important since the traffic patterns can be very different on &quot;getaway day&quot;

Since he has to go to Walnut Creek sometimes, Oakland or Berkeley looks good. Easy access via Highway 24, and it would be &quot;reverse&quot; commute.

Stu, we are going out the second weekend in January. I hope things are available then! He can move at any time but has actually started this new job already so I know he would like to move by Feb. 1st.
PS You may be 60 but you seem to know your stuff! (Wanna be our guide?) Actually, his company will provide help with this but I have to say that the person/company they hired when he moved to Chicago weren't much help. He eventually found what he wanted on craigslist.

My daughter is leaving her apartment a half block from Mission Dolores at the end of the month - her one bedroom costs $1700, but the building is clean, safe, sunny whenever sun exists, and has a heated pool. Parking is extra. We looked at some real rat holes (just about as expensive) before finding this, so be very careful. I think she found it on Craigslist.

Oops, sorry, missed the working from home part. All the more reason to be in a vibrant in-city location. For example, I like parts of Walnut Creek well enough, but it's no place I'd recommend for a 20-something. He needs to live in an area with better possibility to make friends nearby.

Hey likeswords, is her apartment available?????? :o)

rbnwdln - yes, probably. It's at 240 Dolores, and you could contact Trinity Management Services, specifically Sabrina Cosentino (that's the leasing consultant) 415-421-3333, ext. 22.

rbnwdln, it's unit 234.