Dearborn/Detroit Michigan
 

We may be moving to Dearborn, Michigan for a job with Ford. Can anyone out there give me the lowdown on what the suburbs are like outside of Detroit? What is the city of Detroit like? Is it a cosmopolitan city? We are coming from Columbus, OH (originally from NYC area), and would like some advice on the area. Can anyone give me some names of towns that are nice to live in? We are a young couple in our early 30's, so we'd like a community that's got some nightlife, shopping, and good restaurants and movie theaters. <BR> <BR>Any info would be most appreciated!!!

I live in the area and have all of my life. I live Downriver and work in the Northern Suburbs. Downriver is a great place to live, but most folks like the bustling Northern Suburbs, like Farmington, Bloomfield Hills and West Bloomfield. Also, the western suburbs such as Novi and Milford. I have lived Downriver all of my life, the last 30 years in Trenton. It has a great school system, pretty traditional, and Grosse Ile is a trendier, though conservative and pricey Island suburb. I will be glad to answer any questions via email. We love Downriver, as we are avid boaters and it is right on the Detroit River. Check out the schools anywhere before you decide to move, unless you lean toward the private ones. Good luck and Go Blue!

Hi, we have lived in the Detroit area 3 different times (GM). We prefer Novi and Northville because it is a little more rural than some of the others mentioned like Farmington Hills, etc. Novi and Northville both have a great school system. And plenty of restaurants, shopping, expressways. When I say rural, I mean it's not jammed with cars on every street. And you might pass a farm or two here and there. <BR> <BR>House prices will probably shock you, a little on the high side, and check out the taxes too. We couldn't believe how expensive it had gotten in the past 10 yrs. <BR> <BR>Downtown Northville is quaint and there is always a festival of some sort going on. And make sure you stop at Parmenters Cider Mill between Labor Day and Thanksgiving for THE BEST CIDER anywhere. Also Guernsey Dairy has the best ice cream. (both are near 8 Mile Rd and Novi Rd) <BR> <BR>Novi has a big shopping mall called Twelve Oaks. Plus many other strip malls sprinkled everywhere. <BR> <BR>And just in case, there are plenty of public golf courses all around that area too. <BR> <BR>Canada is just across the Detroit River, so there is plenty of things to do there too. <BR> <BR>Hope this helps you. Good luck! <BR> <BR> <BR>

Suz: <BR> <BR>As someone who recently moved from Columbus to the Detroit area, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE TAKE MY ADVICE: <BR> <BR>FOR GOD'S SAKE, AT ALL COSTS, STAY IN COLUMBUS!!!! <BR> <BR>......I wish I had! <BR> <BR>For starters: <BR> <BR>Diana was sugar-coating it when she said that the housing prices will "...shock you..." I almost had a coronary when I got up here & saw what they were asking. Plan on spending roughly 20 - 30% more for housing than in Columbus. Oh, by the way, the electricity rates here are outrageous (I was told it was because they have a bunch of aging, costly nuclear power plants they're trying to keep afloat), and the car insurance rates are higher. Groceries and gasoline are slightly higher. <BR> <BR>And I don't know if Diana is living in this area (it didn't sound like it), but practically the only time you won't have a ton of traffic anywhere on the northwest side of town is at midnight. If you think I-270 or 315 is bad, you 'aint seen nothin' (sic) until you've tried to get around this place! I-275 seems to be constantly jammed (especially north of I-96); I-96 on the west side (past Novi) isn't much better. And if there's an accident, you'd better bring a book or newspaper in your car, because you won't be going anywhere for a while. <BR> <BR>Another thing I couldn't believe is the fact that many of the residential roads in the suburbs are DIRT!!! .....I'm not talking gravel, but DIRT!!! When it rains, these dirt roads look like the military used them for target practice. Even the deepest, darkest spots in Ohio at least have gravel on the roads. I don't understand why people pay property taxes here....because none of the money seems to go towards roads. I've seen residential dirt roads in some of the nicer suburbs, like Bloomfield Hills & Farm. Hills, so it's not like the only places that have dirt roads are where a bunch of shacks are located. So if you decide to live off of a dirt road, plan on becoming fast friends with an auto repairman...... <BR> <BR>The whole Farmington/Bloomfield/Novi area is a mess (trafficwise)....imagine Dublin or Worthington with 1/2 the side streets and double the traffic, and you'll get an idea of what it's like here. Not to mention all of the road construction that seems to drag on for an eternity... <BR> <BR>I do agree with Judy that if you're still bent on coming up here, downriver may be a better alternative. It's more rural, but I like that kind of life. But if you're into heavy-duty shopping, nightlife, etc., downriver isn't the place. I'd live there, but it's simply too far of a commute from where I work. Plus, Judy, I have never heard so many nasty comments about downriver than from the Detroit locals who live and/or work up in the Farmington/Troy/Bloomfield area (not that I agree with them). <BR> <BR>There's very little in the City of Detroit, but there is alot to do in the suburbs (if you don't mind driving forever!). I do agree that Windsor is fun, too. <BR> <BR>I don't know if your/husband's job would require alot of flying, but I hope not. Metro Airport is inconvenient, overcrowded, and totally run by Northwest Airlines. None of the people I have talked to say that they WANT to fly NW.. They say that they HAVE to, because basically, NW is the only show in town. <BR> <BR>Suz, I wish I would have known all of this before I came up here. But I hope that I can spare someone else the grief that I have had to endure..... GOOD LUCK!!!! <BR> <BR>P.S. If you're a die-hard Buckeye fan like I am, you'll also have to endure the incessant yapping from all of the Michigan fans you and/or your husband will be working with...!! <BR> <BR>GO BUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Suz: I was born in Lansing, lived there and in some Detroit suburbs growing up (Birmingham, Royal Oak), went to college and law school in Ann Arbor (west of Detroit), worked in downtown Detroit (GM headquarters) to put myself through school, and get back to the Detroit suburbs pretty often to visit relatives and friends. I have also been to Columbus so I do have a point of comparison. Just so you know where I'm coming from, I also used to live in Charlotte NC and now live in Washington DC. I am also in my early 30s. <BR>I personally do not feel that Detroit and its suburbs compare very favorably with Columbus. The nicest suburb of Detroit, in my opinion, is Birmingham, but it is ridiculously expensive. If I had to live in the Detroit area for work, I would definitely live in Ann Arbor, which is one of the nicest towns in the whole state due to the University and all it has to offer in terms of cultural events, sports, plus nice neighborhoods, shopping, restaurants, etc. It is a long commute, but I did it for a couple of years and it is doable. You would probably want to live closer in though. Other nice suburbs of Detroit, besides Birmingham, are Bloomfield Hills, West Bloomfield, Farmington Hills, and Beverly Hills. Grosse Pointe is on the extremely high-end -- huge mansions where lots of upper-level GM and Ford execs live. But I would probably look in Birmingham, Bloomfield, Farmington, or Ann Arbor if I were you. As other posters mentioned, housing is expensive. Traffic is bad. <BR> <BR>You asked about whether it is cosmopolitan. The Detroit suburbs do have quite a bit of diversity but you will find it somewhat segregated in that various ethnic groups tended to settle in separate particular areas -- Poles in Hamtramck, Arabs in Dearborn, etc. There is an area in downtown Detroit called Greektown, which apparently did used to have a large Greek immigrant population but is now basically where a lot of tourists go for dinner -- there are some good restaurants there though. Detroit itself is coming back somewhat but is still a pretty depressed city economically compared to many other cities its size. I always feel like the area is trying really hard, but it still feels kind of sad to me. The weather is worse than Columbus. It's not even the snow, or the cold. It's the grey skies that loom for so much of the year. <BR> <BR>I am sorry if this comes off as too negative, but every time I go back I am overwhelmed with a feeling of relief that I don't live there any more. There are some nice things about the area, and I do miss Ann Arbor a lot (Zingerman's Deli, the Michigan Theater, ANGELO's, the Gandy Dancer, Drake's, the Art Fair, the Arb, etc.). But if you move to the Detroit suburbs, I predict you're going to miss Columbus an awful lot.

Suz: <BR> <BR>........Have you made any decisions yet? <BR> <BR>Please keep us posted! <BR> <BR>GOOD LUCK!

Hi, Rich: <BR>Nope, haven't made any decisions yet, since we haven't gotten an offer yet! Based on what I've read here, I'm not very psyched about the Detroit/Dearborn area. Everything about it seems less-than-appealing, other than the new job! We really need to take into consideration the quality of life issue vs. the money issue. I personally don't think it's worth moving there based on what people have said (I've also talked to a bunch of people ther than this forum as well). We still haven't visited, though, so my opinion may change. We are still very open minded and are still very much considering the move. <BR> <BR>If anyone can state a case for me to actually move to Detroit instead of back East by my family and friends(the to the NYC/NJ area), I will be very appreciative! <BR> <BR>Thanks to everyone who gave their input! <BR>

Suz, <BR> <BR>I moved to Tampa, Fl in 1985 (age 20) for a man that I married and divorced. I have not moved back because I would have to sell a house and move my 6 cats (a chore!), and reissue my licensure. In the mean time, I have visited my home town of Farmington Hills and the cities of Dearborn, Northville, Walled Lake, and Brighton where my brothers live. I have also made time to visit the City of Detroit. Keep in mind that the Detroit area is very large. <BR>I am very pleased with the rejuvenation that Detroit and the Detroit area has made over the last few years. Yeah, it has a ways to go compared to NY (doesn't every place?), but it really is gaining by leaps and 'bounds. <BR>Rich is *very* negative! I think it was him who posted terrible things about Tiger Stadium and the surrounding parking. What did he expect from an historic stadium built in 1912? (just to give you a clue as to his frame of mind). <BR>Yes, I think that the Northwest suburbs are the place to live because I grew up there. Compared to Florida, I think all the housing north of the Georgia line is high (keep in mind we don't have basements). <BR>I don't know about other counties in the area, but Oakland County has an excellent educational system plus a vocational educaton system where people 15-20 can get a free education in things like dental assisting, medical assisting, mechanics, cosmatology, food service (management), floral arrangement, computers plus other things that have been more updated than when I was there getting my certificate in dental assisting at 17 (later attending the University of Detroit for my Hygiene degree). <BR> <BR>Try www.homefair.com . They have computations where you can find out what you would have to make in a different city in order to live at the same level that you are living now. The question after you put in all your info is: what is the difference between what you make/spend now and what you would make/spend in the Detroit area. <BR> <BR>I will be leaving for 12 days on Friday early afternoon. Please feel free to email me before then or after that for more info on the Detroit area. <BR> <BR>Take care. <BR> <BR>Kittie <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>

Suz, <BR> <BR>To add fuel to the fire, I went to homefair.com and did a comparison between Columbus and Farmington Hills. The analysis said that if you make $50,000 in Columbus, you would have to make $52,249 in Farmington Hills to keep that same level of living. <BR> <BR>Kittie

Kittie: <BR> <BR>First, It seems that we are both in love with our hometowns (yours being Detroit, and mine being Columbus), so I don't think that either one of us is exactly impartial. However, that being said... <BR> <BR>Second, I actually agree with you that Detroit has come a long way, but it also has a long way to go. It seems that people here are evenly divided as to whether bringing in casinos and the renovation of the RenCen is enough.... And as for NYC, not everyone is enamored with it.... Frankly, I'd rather chop off my arm than live there..... <BR> <BR>Third, I know that my first posting sounded negative, but I am just relating my own experiences since moving here. And if you look closely at my Tigers Stadium posting, I made no reference to the condition of the stadium... I actually had a nice time when I went there. I just don't enjoy being gouged for parking (I've paid less in Beverly Hills!), and even Detroit natives agree that it's not in the best part of town... I drove by the new stadium yesterday, and thought what a tremendous asset it will be to the city (I just hope they planned for parking!)... <BR> <BR>Third, as far as the comparison in housing costs, I don't know where homefair.com is getting their information, but all I can say is that for what I am paying for a tiny, 2 bedroom apt., I had a spacious, 2 bedroom townhouse w/a patio and 2-car carport for the same amount of money in Ohio. I work with someone from Syracuse, and he also agreed that the cost of living here (compared to the rest of the midwest, except for Chicago) is outrageous. It looks like Lisa (who posted here), as well as other people with whom Suz has talked to fall on my side of this issue....... I suggest that when you come up here, look at the real estate section in the Detroit News...you might be in for a shock! <BR> <BR>Fourth, I stand behind my comments regarding the horrible state of the roads and traffic here... Kittie, I am sure that when you lived here 10+ years ago, it was not as crowded on the northwest side, but the traffic, the conditions of the roads (especially the side streets), and the abundance of dirt roads in residential/rural areas all create a truly miserable driving experience.... Again, I ask: why do people pay property taxes here? If I was a Michigan native, I would be completely embarassed by the fact that our state has dirt roads! Besides that, I truly believe that these roads create a public safety (ambulances, fire trucks, police) hazard....especially in the winter. <BR> <BR>As for Metro Airport, I had a delightful experience when I tried to fly to Virginia this past Summer...the place was mobbed, most of the long-term parking lots were full, and I had to carry my luggage on my back and hike 1/2 mile to get a bus to the terminal so I wouldn't miss my flight.. Mind you, I got there an hour and a half before my flight was scheduled to leave... <BR> <BR>Kittie, I am not saying that there isn't anything good w/Detroit. In my previous posting, I pointed out that there IS alot to do here, if you're willing to drive alot, and that neighboring Windsor is fun... <BR> <BR>I (and apparently Lisa and several people that Suz has talked to) am just saying that if you're looking at cost of living, traffic, and ease of access to activities, Columbus beats Detroit hands down. <BR>

Suz - I agree with everyone who has warned you not to go to MI - I moved to michigan (90 minutes from detroit) from indianapolis 5 years ago and would go back to indy in a heart beat - aside from all of the other negative remarks about the area (traffic, property taxes, cost of living, etc...) add: the most closed minded, prejudiced group of people I have ever experienced, and I travel throughout the country on a regular basis.

Oh my, <BR>What venom. If you hate the Detroit area so much why don't you move elsewhere? <BR> <BR>Rich, I do apologize for mis-stating your earlier post. I was under the impression that you disliked everything about your outing at Tiger Stadium. I, too, drove by the new stadium. It looks very nice. I also look forward to the new football stadium being built next door. <BR> <BR>I'm going on vacation now... <BR> <BR>Kittie <BR>

It is unclear if Suz has decided to move to Detroit yet, but I must say that Detroit suffers from a negative image both in the national front as well as the very people who live in our suburbs. As someone who has lived in Detroit - and I mean the city, not the suburbs - for 20 years, I am always disheartened by the negativity that comes from the suburbs. I am not completely naive about the problems that Detroit faces, but the growth that has occurred in the past few years is amazing. <BR> <BR>Suz states that they are a young couple looking for a good community. What exactly does that mean for you? If you are interested in malls and chain restaurants, then the places people are mentioning will be perfect. If you are looking for culture and an interesting life, think about living in the city. There are lots of nice apartments, there are historical districts where you can find an absolute steal for the amount of house you get, there are nice communities on the edges of the city so that you can benefit from the surburban ammenities that people find so important, and you won't spend the rest of your life dealing with traffic trying to get to the museums, music, stadiums, etc. If you can't quite handle the city as it does require a certain mindset, suburbs such as Dearborn and Ferndale have interesting communities, good restaurants, and are still close to the city. It also sounds like you do not have children which should make it easier to choose where you live, as schools are always an issue. <BR> <BR>I am always curious about why people who live in the suburbs hate Detroit so much. I have to say that there is often an underlying tone of racism, but unfortunately that is as much a part of Detroit history as the automobile and Motown. As more and more young professionals of all colors and creeds move into the city, this will hopefully change the overall perception of the city. <BR> <BR>Suz, you and your husband need to make your own decision about what you are comfortable with. But rather than base your decision with what people (including me) say about this area, please come visit and learn more about it. Also, there are LOTS of transplants in Detroit due to the auto companies. You will not be alone! Just remember, there are many reasons to come into the city limits. Just keep your mind open to all opportunities.

Amy: <BR> <BR>First of all, I for one certainly do not "hate" the city of Detroit so I am assuming your comments weren't directed at me. I used to work in downtown Detroit and have spent lots of time in the city itself in addition to the suburbs. I still have relatives who live in the city, who I visit, as well as in some in the suburbs. The city does have some nice things to offer. The Detroit Institute of Arts and some of the other cultural attractions are definitely worth visiting. However, most major cities have such museums, theatres, and cultural attractions. Detroit's are not outstanding in that regard. <BR> <BR>Your post is a little mysterious because if you read it without reading the posts above it, one would think that the previous posters had raved about how wonderful the suburbs are and criticized the city of Detroit. But actually, the previous posts were fairly critical of both. The comparison that Suz really asked people to make was not between Detroit and the suburbs, but to discuss Detroit and its suburbs relative to Columbus. <BR> <BR>Nevertheless, just taking your post on its face: You say that the recent growth has been amazing. That is true, but the VAST majority of that growth has been in the suburbs, not in the city. I am not saying this is a good thing, just that it is a fact. <BR> <BR>In my opinion, the primary reason for Detroit's "negative image" is not racism; lots of other cities have majority African-American populations in their inner cities but still do not have the image problem that Detroit has. Rather, I think the main reason for Detroit's negative image stem from the previous years of mismanagement of the city, lack of investment in infrastructure, and negative economic growth that occurred under former mayor Coleman Young. In other words, Detroit has a negative image because it is, in fact, not as pleasant a place to visit or to live as other cities its size. This is not racist. There are good mayors and bad mayors. Some of the good mayors are African American and some of the bad mayors are African American. Decades of neglect and decay are not easily remedied. The turnaround has definitely begun, but there is a long way to go. (Not unlike my own city of Washington DC, which itself suffered from mismanagement under former mayors and is now on the upswing, but I digress -- by the way, I live in DC itself, not in the suburbs, so I speak as one who is not enamored of malls and suburbia, but rather, enjoys living in a city). <BR> <BR>I also think that the auto companies are sort of a mixed blessing for Detroit and for Michigan in general. On the one hand, they certainly bring a lot of jobs. On the other hand, the importance of the auto companies to Detroit and to the state's economic growth mean that what is good for GM-Ford-Chrysler is viewed as good for everyone in the area, and that's not necessarily always true. For one thing, Detroit and its suburbs and the whole state suffer from a deplorable lack of public transportation (everyone is supposed to buy a car!) which has been actively encouraged by the auto companies. The lack of accessible public transportation contributes to unemployment (if you can't get to work because you don't have a car and there's no public transportation, you can't hold down a job) as well as poor air quality and overcrowded roads (although Detroit is hardly the worst city in the country as far as the latter two problems). <BR> <BR>I am not arguing that the Detroit area has no race problem or that there are no racists in the suburbs; only that to dismiss as racist those who sadly view Detroit (AND most of its suburbs, if you read most of the previous posts carefully) as a less desirable place to live than Columbus is, to put it mildly, too easy. <BR> <BR>I agree that Detroit is worth visiting for anyone who is considering moving there. I also agree that Dearborn and Ferndale (which had not been mentioned in earlier posts) are interesting communities.

Lisa: <BR> <BR>What a truly eloquent (not to mention accurate!) response to Amy's post. As you pointed out, in my posts, I actually had more negative things to say about the suburbs (which is what Suz was originally asking about anyway) than the city. <BR> <BR>Amy, In this age of hyper-sensitive political correctness, it seems that some people can take virtually anything that anyone says & twist it into some kind of horrible sociopolitical assault. Frankly, I am also getting tired of seeing posts from people (not just here) who think that unless one lives in a major city, and is 2 blocks from a museum, theatre, coffeehouse & gallery, that they are some kind of horrible backwater rube, or at the very least, do not lead an "...interesting life." Did it ever occur to you that there are people who dislike living in cities for reasons other than racism?!? Well, I am here to tell you that they do. I personally prefer to live in a rural area, away from the city OR suburbs, and it has nothing to do with racism. I simply prefer living in an area where it is quiet and uncrowded...PERIOD. If I want to see a play, go to a movie, or go to an ethnic restaurant (which I sometimes do), I simply get in my car and go. And by the way, what's wrong with shopping malls? Apparently, enough people like them, or else they wouldn't be in existence. I feel sorry for you and your fellow city pseudo-sophisticates who are generally too cynical and closed-minded to enjoy the simpler things of life that living in a small town or rural area offers... <BR> <BR>Amy, please open your eyes (not to mention your mind!) and stop looking for racist "boogeymen." Where you see culture and sophistication, I see crime, overcrowding, and high prices. I guess beauty really is in the eye of the beholder... Amy, I also do not "hate" Detroit. I AM disappointed with Detroit (city AND suburbs)...there's a big difference. <BR> <BR>Lisa is also right when she points out what years of the Coleman Young administration have done to the city. Most people I have met in the suburbs AND city agree with that. She is also right on-target when she brings up the almost non-existant public transportation situation here. The people in the ENTIRE area need to get rid of this outdated notion that if they build a convenient, reliable public transportation system, people will give up their cars, and the auto industry will dry up and blow away. Other cities figured out that this was erroneous decades ago...why hasn't Detroit? If it's one thing I can agree with Amy, it is the fact that anyone who is contemplating a move to another city, no matter where it is, should visit it beforehand. But, it has also been my experience that visiting a city and living there are 2 entirely different things... <BR> <BR>I also feel sorry for tmn. I live in a rural area, and work in the suburbs, and despite what Amy thinks, I have worked with, and met nice people from all different racial/ethnic backgrounds. I guess I didn't realize it until now, because I'm too busy doing my job and living my life to put marks on a racial/ethnic "tote board." While I don't always agree with them on everything, I have found most of the people I have met here in Detroit to be your typical, good-hearted midwesterner - this goes for people in the city AND the suburbs AND the rural areas...... <BR>

We just returned from a 3 week trip to Michigan (used to live there and go back farily often) and there were many things we loved and realized we missed (seasons, friendly people, etc.) and many things we did not miss. The traffic has gotten terrible and I am saying that as a resident of Los Angeles Area. They are building many lovely homes in the suburbs but they are not inexpensive. Areas we liked the best were on par with some areas here on L.A. I do agree that the Novi/Northville/Farmington Hills Areas are nice and we also liked the Plymouth Area. We used to live in Birmingham and Bloomfield Hills and those areas are still very nice but housing prices are getting out of hand there. Many large homes are being torn down and even bigger ones built. As for Detroit - we weren't impressed with any of it. It didn't seem any better at all and we definitely would not spend much time there - but do like the suburbs and look forward to going back again soon for a visit.

I lived in downtown Detroit (Indian Village) and Birmingham. After being robbed at gunpoint in my car, having car stolen 3 times, etc. etc. we moved to Birmingham. No problems of that nature there. Lovely homes, well maintained with enough diversity to keep it from being boring. Great shopping and some fair restaurants. I miss almost nothing however. There are charming suburbs in almost every city of any size. The airport is an abomination and the interstates are a mess. You would think that the auto companies would have had more clout with Washington to have the roads maintained.

I am sorry it has taken so long for me to respond. Yes, thank you Lisa for your response to my posting. It is indeed eloquent and right on target in many ways. Thank you also Rich for your comments. I hope no one took my comment as aimed at them as it certainly was not. It was purely my comment on much of what I have seen and heard in my years as a Detroiter. <BR> <BR>My family moved into Detroit because we were sick of having to drive to do the things we wanted to do, most of which were in Detroit. I am very impressed, Rich, that you will drive to the interesting places you wish to visit. It used to be the joke (and reality) that suburbanites would not go south of 8 mile, but now it is south of 12 mile! (sorry to anyone not from the area) For me, the most interesting comment I have ever received was when I was told, to my face, that "Real people don't live in Detroit." Hmmm... <BR> <BR>I am very pro-Detroit - like you couldn't tell! My post was meant as merely another option for Suz and her husband to consider. Many people who are transplants to the area are never even shown the options for Detroit living and I hoped to offer her that. Am I blind to the problems in Detroit? No. Am I willing to live with them in order to enjoy the benefits that I think are here? Yes. <BR> <BR>Any word yet from Suz on the final decision? It would be nice to start a posting on people's favorite things in metro Detroit (yes I will admit some of my favorites are in the burbs.) If I started one, would anyone play along? <BR>

I worked for Ford for 20 years. It is a great company with great people. Problem is: It has HQ in Detroit. I left Ford to escape Detroit. They were saying it was "coming back" in 1985 when we moved there. There is no downtown to go to. None. The weather is terrible. The roads are bad. All the Ford guys leave as soon as they retire unless they are stuck there. Everyone dreams of going to Florida someday. Some of the neighborhoods are very ethnic and they will not accept you if you are not one of them. Check this out very, very carefully before you buy. Bottom line: Ford Motor is a great place to work and a quality company. I just could not handle living my life in a town like Detroit. Life is just too short. Only the local, born here, raised here people like it. Everyone else serves there time and bails out. Have fun.

Why don't you spend a couple of days in the Detroit area during the week. <BR>I'm from Columbus and live upstate in Michigan...by choice. <BR>Detroit and area are a mess....not an ounce of planning....the whole area "just happened"...the traffic is a nightmare. <BR>I never thought I would say this but....stay in Columbus!