sweens66

We’ve made a late decision to take advantage of relatively low gas prices and drive from VA to Las Vegas to visit family for Thanksgiving, and to see some sites along the way. This will take about 3 weeks, and we’ll be leaving Sat. or Sun. We’re going via some dear friends’ house in Ruston, LA (near Monroe) and then proceeding thru TX, NM & AZ.

We have never been thru this neighborhood before and are excited to see what it has to offer, so we are looking for Fodorites’ expertise. “We” are a homeschooling family of 5 – two girls ages 15 & 10, and our son, soon to be 7. My wife & I are 39 & 42, respectively, in fairly decent shape, and love “easy” hikes/walks. All of us love long drives and are pretty jazzed about the trip. We want to focus on the National Parks and fun, unusual places. Our route will be along I-20 through Texas, and here is our first draft of an itinerary:

Tuesday 11/18 AM: Depart Ruston for Carlsbad, NM. Google says about 12 hrs… correct?

Wednesday 11/18: Visit Carlsbad Caverns & Guadalupe Mountains.

Thursday 11/19: Leave at daybreak & drive to Seguaro Nat’l Park and/or Ironwood Forest NM.

Friday 11/20: Enjoy whatever else we can early & head to Vegas for arrival around 4-5 PM.

While I know this is aggressive and are greatly restricted by shorter daylight hours, we are also restricted by our desire to be in Las Vegas to maximize our time with relatives there. (While in Vegas, we will also take in Red Rocks Canyon and Hoover Dam, and over Thanksgiving we are staying at a friend’s house in Cedar City to spend time at Zion National Park.) It’s the TX-NM-AZ part that we’d like to see as much as possible in a short period of time.

I know nothing about the drive in the Carlsbad/Guadalupe area, or between El Paso and Phoenix, so I don’t know how mountainous/windy the roads are. I anticipate taking I-10 to PHX, and then 60 & 93 to Kingman, and on up to Vegas. Is this reasonable? What should we cut out (or add in)? As most people are, we are on a budget.
Where would you recommend we stay? For the most part, I have enough points at Marriotts & Hiltons for 4 or 5 nights’ stays, but I’d be interested in hearing about unusually interesting or wonderful other places.

Thank you very much in advance for any advice you can provide to bring some "reality" to our Southwest US dreams!

sweens66

BTW, two more thoughts:

1. No slight against Texas, just driving through to get somewhere else! I just don't know what there is to see along I-20, but if any of you Longhorns out there have particular suggestions worth a stop, I'm all ears! We are most interested in the Guadalupe Mountains, and then the NM-AZ areas.

2. It seems a shame to exclude places like Sedona and Grand Canyon, but we hit all those places on previous trips & want to see new places. The region is just too big to do everything!

Looking forward to your replies...

FainaAgain

Oh, so it's not P_M driving? Whew!..

Barblab

I cool stop in Texas would be Fort Davis, staying in the Indian Lodge, visting the restored fort and attending a star party at McDonald Observatory at night. (About 70 miles south of Pecos on I 20.) Check to see if the observatory will have a program that night.

You also may want to break up the drive through Texas with a stop at the Kennedy 6th Floor Museaum in Dallas.

spirobulldog

You could book an "off trail" tour at Carlsbad. The two best tours(Hall of White Giants and Spider Cave) are only offered on Saturday and Sunday only. You could do Lower Cave or Left Hand. These are cave-like without a sidewalks. Kings Palace has a sidewalk. Call and ask specifically about age restrictions. Call a park ranger. If you think you may come this way again, totally skip Carlsbad as you are missing the bats and that is something "not to miss". Of course, you will want to see The Big Room and Natural Entrance. Plan to eat lunch in the bottom of the cave. I checked and Kings Palace, Lower Cave and Left Hand are all available. Left hand is lantern guided and age 6 is the limit. You must be 12 year old for Lower Cave, but call and ask!!!

Frankly, you will be driving about 15 hours of your trip through the most boring scenary you can imagine, but the things you have mentioned are very nice. I think a lot of the road in TX you are on is 75 MPH and even 80 around West Texas.

We love Dallas as we live in Oklahoma, but the things we like there are just shopping and eating.

I don't think you can Drive, see Carlsbad, Saquaro, Guadalope all in 2 days. You are making a mistake blasting through National Parks. The only park that you can visit in 3 or 4 hours that is along your way would be Petrified Forest in my opinion.

How are you returning? I-40? have you been to zion before?

WhereAreWe

Maybe 30 minutes west of Odessa is Monahans Sandhills State Park - it's right off of I-20 and would be good for a quick stop. The park office rents plastic sled/disks for sand surfing. If the idea of shaking sand out of your clothes for the rest of the day isn't appealing, you can just walk around on the dunes.

Guadalupe Mountains NP is notoriously windy in the winter. You might catch it on a quiet day if you're lucky, but I'd go prepared for sustained winds of at least 20 mph with higher gusts.

Barblab's suggestion is good. It'd be about a 3 hour drive from Fort Davis to Carlsbad - if you got up early you could get to Carlsbad in time to do some cave tours.

Either way, I'd suggest maybe an overnight in El Paso or Las Cruces after your day at Carlsbad/Guadalupe. You're looking at a sunset time of ~5 pm and there isn't much to do in Carlsbad after dark. I'd hit the road and drive a ways before settling down for the night to give yourself some extra time the next day for sightseeing. You're not going to miss much doing that drive after dark.


I had to google Ironwood Forest - not sure why that would be on the agenda for such a quick trip? Saguaro NP has to be a better choice. The western section is probably a better choice for a quick trip.

ElendilPickle

We've visited Carlsbad Caverns in November (fellow homeschoolers here), and it's great with or without the bats.

By the time you get to the caverns, walk to the bottom via the Natural Entrance, tour the Big Room, and do an extra tour such as King's Palace, you won't have any daylight left for Guadalupe National Park. You might want to spend some time there the next morning before you head toward Arizona.

Lee Ann

sweens66

Thank you all. I will check out some of your suggestions. I've been to the Kennedy 6th Floor museum many years ago, and it wasn't that impressive then; maybe it's been improved, so I'll look into it. The observatory definitely sounds like an option!

My wife will actually be quite relieved to hear about the "no bat zone" this time of year, but I sure would have loved to see them!

I know, I know, this blasting through the parks is driving me crazy, too, and pretty much violates my First Rule of Visiting National Parks: Take your time! But we just don't have much, so my Evil Plan is to whet everyone's appetite for more places to visit in the future, when we will have time!

We are returning mostly via I-40, which we did westbound 4 years ago between OK City & Grand Canyon. We loved Standin' On a Corner in Winslow, the Wigwam Motel in Holbrook, Petrified Forest/Painted Desert, Gallup, Albq, etc.

We are planning a few days in Zion and will be checking out Zion Adventures for some tours/canyoneering expeditions there, which will more satisfy our Nat'l Park cravings. Any particular suggestions, spirobulldog, that I may not have already seen in the Utah posts?

I picked Ironwood Forest because it's on my U.S. map in our school room and it's on the way. I know nothing else about it, and it may well be worth skipping.

Finally, aside from what sounds like most of Texas, what could we drive through at night and not miss much scenery? Sounds like we should plan on a fairly full day at Carlsbad Caverns & get through the Guadalupes and at least as far as Las Cruces. What is the scenery like between Las Cruces & Saguaro? How about between PHX and Kingman? I know what's between Kingman & LV... not much, and we will be going back to Hoover Dam anyway. That could be cool to see at night, assuming it's all lit up.

Thanks again for the wonderful feedback. You're all helping me refine our expectations and the itinerary. Keep it comin'!

katefrisco

Dallasite here...I would skip Texas really. I love my state but where you are going will be more picturesque IMHO. I think it will save you some time to do the outdoorsey things.I wish I was going with you all! I love Gallup for the shopping. Have a blast!

katefrisco

What about detouring and going through Northern New Mexico..up through Cimarron, Eagles Nest..very pretty drive up there. I went to camp at Cimarroncita which is between Cimarron and Eagles Nest..very beautiful up there. Out of the way but might be more picturesque....just a thought...

sweens66

Thanks to both of you. Unfortunately, I'm having a hard enough time squeezing in a couple things that ARE on the way - never mind driving up to the north.

We are pretty much blasting through TX but are considering - if we can make good time after a sufficiently early start from LA - stopping at the McDonald Observatory for Star Night. Sounds very cool, but it puts us in a crunch to get to Carlsbad, which is probably our #1 non-negotiable stop. So we'll play it by ear & be flexible.

I have read up a bit on Carlsbad Caverns, but it's not real clear to me what we should be able to expect to do. Off-hand, I'd like to take at least one self-guided tour (which you can do anytime during operating hours), plus one guided tour. I'm thinking of Kings Palace, which is billed as 1.5 hrs starting at 10 & at 2.

I don't know how long the self-guided tours take. They start at 8:30. Can we be real pigs and walk ourselves thru Natural Entrance and emerge through the Big Room path (or vice versa), and then hit the 2:00 Kings Palace tour?

That would conceivably let us leave between 3:30 & 4. What time does the sun set this time of year? We would like to leave Carlsbad & head out via the Guadalupe Mts. (just driving past) to El Paso, but will we actually see anything that time of day?

WhereAreWe

The combo Natural Entrance/Big Room self-guided tours would take ~ 3 hours, depending on how long you wanted to spend in there. If you're crunced for time, you may want to consider this: be there at 8:30 and get your tickets, then get going and do either of the self-guided tours and finish in time for the 10am Kings Palace tour. Afterwards, have a lunch underground and decide if you want to continue and do the other self-guided tour. If you do, you would be finished with that by probably 2 or 2:30 at the latest, instead of 3:30-4 if you wait until the 2pm Kings Palace tour. That gives you more daylight - sunset is ~4:51 pm in Carlsbad over Thanksgiving.

I think generally people do the Natural Entrance and then the Big Room - the Natural Entrance tour ends in the central underground area where the Big Room and Kings Palace tours begin. However, I think if you decide on the 10am KP tour it would be better to start with the Big Room. It has a shortcut partway through, so you could skip part of the trail if you're worried about making your 10am tour, and then go back afterwards and see what you missed. With the Natural Entrance, you're basically going downhill all the way, so you don't really want to backtrack and there's no way to skip anything as it's a continuous trail, not one with a couple loops.

I hope that makes sense and doesn't cause a lot of confusion.

spirobulldog

Get to the Visitor Center @ 8:00 and look around there and get your tickets. BOOK THE TICKETS NOW.
Do the Left Hand Tunnel @ 9:00. Have lunch in the bottom of the cave, then tour the Big Room and Natural Entrance. Left Hand Tunnel is age 6 required.

Kings Palace would be my last choice for the off trail tours, unless there is an age issue. You want to get where there are no sidwalks and at least a little adventourous. I don't remember, but some of the tours may take you through "The Natural Entrance" to start with. I know that Hall of White Giants did, but I am not sure about the rest of them.

You will want to return in a summer season to see the bats. Not seeing them would be like going to Yellowstone and not seeing Old Faithful. Yes Yellowstone is wonderful, but the geysers are cool. Carlsbad is all about the cave and the bats come in 2nd, but definately are a highlight in Carlsbad.

sweens66

Oooohh... thank you both! Very helpful. I will say that my wife is somewhat less than "adventurous" when it comes to potentially slipping off a trail into Hell itself while in the caves. Need to see some kind of assurance about Left Hand Tunnel's lack of sidewalks, etc. It makes it less fun if she is worried all the time about someone falling.

Our youngest will be turning 7 next month, and he is very well coordinated and has a lot of energy to keep up with the "spelunking." He is also very respectful of our rules & guidelines and would stick close by when told to, so I'm not worried about him doing something dumb. So it sounds like he'd be fine in either Kings Palace or Left Hand Tunnel. It's my wife I have to consider.

Hmmmmmm... Decisions, decisions.

Your assessments of the time involved are most helpful, though. Thanks!

ElendilPickle

http://www.nps.gov/cave/planyourvisi...and_tunnel.htm

Here's a link to Left Hand Tunnel tour information.

If you do what spirobulldog is recommending, you would end up taking the elevator down to the Big Room (I don't know where the Left Hand Tunnel tour starts), touring that, taking the elevator back to the surface, then walking to the Natural Entrance and walking back down to the Big Room.

We did it the way you're considering - get to the park when it opens, walk to the bottom via the Natural Entrance, have some lunch, do the King's Palace tour (which you should book in advance), then tour the Big Room.

By the end of the day, the rangers kind of push you through the Big Room in order to get everyone out by closing time, but you'll have seen a whole lot of cave formations by then, so it wasn't a problem for us.

It will be getting dark by 5:00.

Lee Ann

spirobulldog

I don't think there is any danger involved on this trip. I guess slipping and falling, but you might do that in the bathtub or shower. This tour is very mild. While the Big Room and Entance and Kings Palace are all awesome and a great experience, the trails that don't have lighting and don't have a sidewalk seem more like a cave. Frankly, the ones that you have to crawl through and get dirty are more my speed, but this one is mild. If you are concerned about dropoffs, call a ranger and ask specific questions. They do the trips on a regular basis, where any answer you might get on here will probably be from someone like me who did the trip one time 3 years ago. I just remember thinking that the White Giant Tour was really good. There was potential for some falls in that one, but only if you were an idiot.

sweens66

Quick in-process trip report...

First, thank you all for your great advice. So far things have gone pretty much as planned. Boy, were you right about the drive across Texas... B-O-R-I-N-G! And smelly, too, with all the oil fields. I had to remind my kids that, despite the smell, we had to be thankful for those stinky oil fields & refineries and those who work them and live in it all the time; otherwise, we would not be driving across Texas to see the National Parks.

We were not able to make the time necessary to get to the McDonald Observatory. We stayed in Odessa and then got up early to be at Carlsbad around 8:15. This worked out just about perfectly; we walked in and signed up for one of the off-trail tours - the Left Hand Tunnel lantern-light tour. Wow, did we all enjoy that! It was easy to do, and we had great guides and a wonderful group. It was so cool to sit and blow out the candles and sit in silent darkness. The kids absolutely ate it up!

Anyway, then we went up, had lunch in the parking lot and set off on the Natural Entrance walk. That was truly amazing - beyond our wildest expectations. The park rangers throughout the caverns were so kind and patient with all of our questions, and they had helpful advice on the best way to see the caverns.

Once at the bottom, we set off on the Big Room tour, which was awe-inspiring. The kids really enjoyed finding cave crickets and remembering the difference between stalactites and stalagmites.

By the way, against Spirobulldog's advice, I didn't call Carlsbad until the day before as we were driving thru Texas, because I just wasn't sure whether we'd make it when we planned. I was also gambling on the time of year and going on a Wednesday. I was disappointed to hear that they were all sold out but that I could make reservations for the day after that. That got me wondering, so I called the park directly to ask about cancellations, and they said they had all kinds of availability for anything we wanted on the day we wanted. They explained that the company they contract to sell National Parks tickets, hotel reservations, etc., has sole rights up until 48 hrs. prior. After that, the Parks get the rights, so all the reservation company says is that they are sold out. So that's how we were able to walk right up and get tickets. I would NOT recommed doing this during the summer, but it certainly worked out well for us. Things that make you go, "Hmmm"...

After an exhaustive day, we headed off around the Guadalupe Mts. on our way to Las Cruces. We left a little too late to see much of the scenery, but we did enjoy some of it.

We stopped at a truck stop in a dark stretch of highway to enjoy the stars - so many stars!

Anyway, late the next morning we made it to Saguaro NP (West) and spent some time at the Visitors Center and driving around and doing small hikes (we were still a little stiff from Carlsbad). After watching the sun set from the balcony of the Visitors Center, we went off to find a hotel.

The following day we got to the Sonoran Desert Museum right at opening time and had a marvelous morning there. (Well, at least until the hordes of school groups arrived with a few adult-looking people they loosely referred to as "chaperones". Not sure what their actual purpose was, however.) But the museum workers were mostly retired school teachers who LOVE to teach, so we took advantage of them as much as possible to learn about what we were seeing. We had limited time, though, as we still had to get to Las Vegas, so we stopped back at the Saguaro Visitors Center to get the kids' Junior Ranger work signed off.

Yesterday we went up to Red Rocks Canyon for a drive around and a short, easy hike (we have a little neice with us now who lives here but doesn't do much outdoorsy stuff... shame - but she loved it). We are off shortly for a morning hike up there again and a picnic lunch.

I was SHOCKED to see the price$ for the Hoover Dam tours. I don't remember them being so high. It would cost us about $50 for the power plant tour and $150 for the dam tour. Fuggetaboudit! As an engineer, I'd love to go see it again, but that's just too much, and I don't want to go by myself, so we'll just take extra time up at Red Rocks for $5 (more in my budget).

Weather does NOT look promising for Fri./Sat. at Zion (rain), so we're playing that by ear.

Well, if you read this before Thanksgiving, please have a very Happy Thanksgiving with your families, and remember to be thankful for all the great blessings we still enjoy in this great country with such amazing natural wonders.

See ya!

spirobulldog

Hey sween, glad you got to do the left hand tour. I think any of the off trail routes give you a better idea of the cave. If you have it in you at all, do ANGELS LANDING. Just hang on to your 6 year old very very well. The Narrows is another good hike, but you would have to spend some dollars to rent gear. overlook trail is another good hike that is short. weather.com says rain on thursday and then clearing fri and sat. Good Luck.

i don't understand why the reservation company wouldn't sell you tickets in the first place if they weren't sold out. Maybe I'm just not following what you are saying. I don't think that would apply to hotels normally. I must say that now I think about it, when were there last (in the summer and busy time) there were actually several people who just walked right up and did a tour. I am really confused now. Probably better safe than sorry to go ahead and get your tickets in advance if at all possible, otherwise it might be a gamble. But at least you lucked out!!

sweens66

Yes, I agree with you on booking the tours. Definitely - especially in season - book 'em ahead of time. But in Nov., it's probably less of a gamble. I would have preferred to book them ahead, but we just had to be more flexible with our "plans". I don't know whether the 48-hr restriction applies to hotels or other types of reservations, but that was the story I got with the ranger tours.

We were overcome by other family events and were unable to do Zion. Oh well, we went up to Mt. Charleston outside of Vegas & played in the snow a little. We're off in the morning to head back home via I-40 Flagstaff-Albq-Amarillo, etc.

Thanks again!

ElendilPickle

I'll wave as you pass through Albuquerque! Have a safe trip home, and I'm glad you enjoyed your vacation.

Lee Ann