College travel...UNC, Elon, Duke...
 

Ok, so continuing to do the college tour thing. We are now looking at UNC, Elon, Duke and I'd like to hear from any of you with an opinion(good/bad) as to these schools or any other NC school for that matter!!!
We toured some Texas schools(UT, A&M, Baylor) and came away with Rice being a favorite.
The kid is in the top 5% with decent SAT's and a 4.3 GPA. Tends toward a smaller school say 20,000 or less.
Just trying to make an informed decision here ya know!???
Anyway, thanks for any info you can give us!!

Many consider Rice and Duke very similar. UNC has 16,000 undergraduates, Duke has approximately 6,400. Both have excellent reputations nationally.

Duke's gothic West campus is beautiful...modeled after Princeton's. However, all freshme

Sorry, I got cut off.

All of Duke's freshmen are housed on the East campus, which used to be Duke's female campus.

Chapel Hill is usually described as a charming college town.

I know less about Elon but its reputation has improved recently.

Being a UNC grad I'm partial to the Tarheels but my son is applying early decision to Duke, but honestly he is a much better student than I was.

Will be happy to answer specific questions you have.

Duke and UNC are both beautiful campuses to visit as well as attend school. At Duke be sure to take a campus tour so you can see the Gardens and learn all about the history of the Chapel, etc. My parents loved the tour.

Obviously UNC is a much bigger school and has mainly NC residents, while Duke is much smaller with a student body from all over the USA. Rice does get compared to Duke sometimes but the people I know who went to Rice (all 3 of them) tend much more to the "techie" type than Duke students, who are more "preppy" than "techie." Duke does have an Engineering School but they are small in number by comparison.

While UNC and Duke are more prestigious schools, don't write off Elon. My dtr (HS senior) has done lots of college research and will likely apply to Elon binding early decision - she was very taken by a number of things about the school - and not just the appearance, although it is beautiful.

The best advice I have heard from guidance counselor people is that the most prestigious school your kid can get into might not be the best match.

And you have my empathy as you go thru this process - we visited every college in the Western Hemisphere (or so it seemed) this summer.

You can get the best college advice/opinions here:


http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/...splay.php?f=15

Good luck. It's a jungle out there.

I probably should have put this link - scroll down to index:

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/index.php

In that neck of the woods, have you also considered Davidson College? I don't have any connection to that school myself, but learned about it while doing research when my own kids went through this process.

http://www3.davidson.edu/cms/?debug=2

Meanwhile our favorite guidebook for colleges was the Princeton Review, most of which you can access for free through a simple signup process....

http://www.princetonreview.com/home.asp

The good news is that there are lots of excellent college choices in America. We're lucky.

I like the surrounding area around UNC much better than Duke (both outstanding schools.) I'd prefer my child running around Chapel Hill to running around Durham.

Hey all,

Thanks for your feedback!!

Some of the info I have researched came from studentsreview.com

Some of the issues I'm concerned about with UNC are the size of the classes several students referred to it as a 'factory' with little professor interaction and with Elon that it may not be challenging enough.

At this point she's applying early action to Elon and UNC(since we're out of state), and regular for the rest. and first see if she's even accepted then what aid package we can get. Will try to do NC tours next month.

OK, full disclosure: rabid Duke grad here and can't even imagine applying anywhere else!

That said, since you seem to be focusing on NC schools, I second the suggestion of considering Davidson and would also suggest taking a look at Wake Forest.

BTW relating to the comment regarding all the freshman living on the same campus (in what might have been a negative tone), most grads loved this! You really got to know the people who are going to be your classmates for four years (rather than seniors who are out of there in a few months). Makes for a much stronger bond.

Good luck with your decision. Go Blue Devils!

My tone wasn't negative. I think it's a good idea.

Don't overlook Wake Forest University which is roughly an hour and half from Duke or Chapel Hill. It is very academically competitive, has an excellent graduate school (medical, law, business) and has the enrollment size you are seeking. Lovely campus. GO DEACS.

Christine65--Two things:
1) If your child (who's got great credentials!) applies early admission to UNC, don't get discouraged if he/she doesn't make it in the first round. UNC, by law, can only accept a limited number of out-of-state students and I'm convinced that they delay the decision on out-of-state students until after the early admission decisions are made. My daughter, who applied early admission 2 years ago as an out-of-state student, was, among other things, a National Merit Scholarship Finalist. Yet she did not get admitted in the early admission round. She did, however, get admitted in the general pool (although she chose to go elsewhere).
2. As a graduate of the University of Texas, the second largest university in the U.S., I know something about going to college at a big school. I heard then, and I hear now, complaints that there is no way that a student can have any real interaction with a professor when the classes are so large. Well, it was only the intro classes that were large--the remainder of my classes, particularly those in my major, were comprised of 20 students or fewer. Also, even though the intro classes were large, the professors were always available to those willing to take the time and effort to meet with them. So, don't discount a university based only on size.

If your daughter is determined to consider UNC over Duke, despite the huge difference in size, at least have her look into the UNC honors program http://www.honors.unc.edu/. Otherwise, she may not find some of the courses challenging enough, which is very depressing when the classes are also enormous.

UNC actually has an excellent academic reputation. Obviously some courses are easier than others, but it's consistently one of the most competitive state schools in terms of out of state applicants, as others alluded to, and has a great reputation overall.

Christine, based on what you've said, the only strike against UNC (and granted, as an alum I'm biased) is its size. I'm not sure of the current total, but it's definitely over 20,000. However, to me, it didn't feel that large. My professors all knew me and my classes were small, although I was in grad school and not the huge intro classes. But those can be large even at a small school (I went to a school of about 4000 undergrads for my bachelor's and still had a few classes of 100-150 people). And there are definite advantages to a larger university. In terms of towns, as a college student I'd most definitely prefer Chapel Hill to Durham.

But then again, I'm biased. :) And I don't know much about Rice, so can't really compare what you already like to what you might like.

Am also a Tar Heel alum, have been in classroom at both places and taught as well. UNC's best are as good as any 'select' school, and certain of its departments are world-class at upper levels. However, in honesty, the bar for what is passing/average is a little lower in some departments and some courses there (esp. the intro courses) than at Duke -- partly because of the trade-offs from the demographic requirements (all NC counties must be represented, etc.) and partly because of the sheer size.

The Honors program is effectively a school-within-a-school and the quality of the students is exceptional. Those who want the social/sports atmosphere of a larger school but the intellectual stimulation from faculty and other classmates of a smaller select school might find this a good situation.

I'd try everything I could to get into Duke because a Duke education carries a lot of weight.

UNC Chapel Hill by a small margin would be my second choice.

Wake Forest would be my third.

No offense but if your daughter has the chops to actually get into the above schools, I would not waste my time with Elon or Davidson.

Our daughter was accepted at Rice, and we, too, loved the campus and were very impressed with the school. She did an overnight in the dorm, and liked the kids, but she ended up choosing Johns Hopkins U. instead.

I know it's not in NC, but you might want to consider Hopkins. It's not just for pre-med students, although I think it's rated #1 for pre-med. It also has a very impressive Writing Seminars major (i.e. creative writing), Internation Relations, etc. And, the Hopkins campus is the prettiest one we've seen anywhere.

Good luck with your search. Our son just started freshman year at Loyola Marymount, and we're really excited about it being such a great fit for him.
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well, thanks again for all of the replies!!!
I think we will consider Wake. John's Hopkins is on the list also. The other issues with any of the schools besides UNC is being able to afford them!! Duke $$$$ Rice $$$ Wake $$$. It's all so frustrating...and the thought that she won't get into any of them is always in the back of my mind ;(
I've been reading a book by a former admissions officer at Duke.."Admissions Confidential" by Rachel Toor quite interesting and insightful as to how the admissions process works!!!

Davidson, Wake Forest, U. of Richmond, William and Mary, UVA.
Your daughter would benefit from talking to a college counselor and narrowing down the style of school she will want.
And what she might be interested in majoring in, although at this point it might not be that important.

Relax take a deep breath. Realize that she will end up where she should be. Your job is to chaffeur her and then, maybe, to make sure she has applied to a range that includes stretch, good fit, and sure-thing schools that she would be happy to attend.

Forget the reputation stuff and if you need confirmation of that, read last weeks NY Times Sunday mag. Duke is not worth the money if she is miserable there.

Birdie's advice is best so far!

As for Toor's book -- take it with a big CHUNK of salt. She took a lot of heat for it because it's finally more about how working at Duke struck HER, and it's a good thing she didn't go on in academic administration because she was "telling tales out of school" and not always accurately. The business of alumni's kids getting preference is disappearing rapidly (just too many of them).

But on the other hand, it's certainly true that admissions offices tend to hire 20-somethings not long out of college because they think they'll appeal to new applicants more. So some admissions people are -- forgive me -- immature and thinking more in terms of whether they'd like an applicant as a roommate than whether the applicant would make the campus a better place.

C'est la vie. Mainly: RELAX!! Your daughter's being stressed from every corner. Make yourself her retreat where she knows someone will say "it'll all turn out great, you'll be fine, college -- wherever you go -- will be GREAT!"

I am a professional college consultant. If you want to learn more about my services you can go to www.abbysiegel.com. This is what I do for a living after 10 years as a college counselor in a high school. The book you mentioned was written by someone who did not work at Duke for very long and I agree with the previous poster that it should just be taken with a grain of salt.

Good luck and if you are interested in working with me let me know.

Have you looked at the most current Fiske Guide? We liked that reference book the most, for its straight-forward pros and cons of each school. It only addresses the upper echelon schools, though. You can usually find it at the public library, if you don't want to buy a copy.

We didn't see the need for hiring a college counselor for either of our two kids. Using the internet, Fiske, sites the kids would go to for college students' feedback, high school counselors, etc.-- we had plenty of help. The tough part is deciding what your student wants in a school, to narrow the field.

Your student sounds like a strong candidate, and there are merit scholarships out there. One Jesuit school offered our daughter $100,000. She ended up accepting the Hodson Scholarship from Hopkins ($80,000!). A huge help, needless to say. You don't apply for the Hodson, they choose you from all the applicants they get. I think they award about 20 of them each year, out of the 10,000 applicant pool.

Good luck. The college app process is a killer, but your student will end up someplace well-suited no doubt.
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In addition to advice I gave above - you again have my empathy. Our household is so stressed out by college trauma and drama that dtr and I are going away this weekend (Portland, Maine) and the only rule is that we are going to have a good time and not disucss college admission at all.

Gail, that sounds like a great idea. Have fun taking college 'off the table' for your weekend get-away.
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Oh WOW!! The day I relax will be the day she's accepted and that will last until the financial package comes in and we see how much debt we will be in!!!
MaureenB:I'll check out the Fiske Guide

I've been all over the net looking at college reviews

Ya'll have been a big help--it's nice to be able to bounce ideas off people...oh man, this is aging me!!!

So you think the application part is difficult...just wait until your kid gets in, then the fun starts. All the paperwork for the school and the financial aid. Then you have to buy everything your kid needs for 10 months and fit it into half a room.

I want to raise a couple of issues based on my experience as the college dean who got to decide whether your kid was in or out when they had a bad freshman (or other) year. What helped kids succeed and what helped them to fail?

1. College readiness. Just because all their friends are going to college this fall or next doesn't make it a good idea for your kid to go as well, esp. if he or she has not spent much time away from home, has no compelling reason to go to college, and has become an experienced partier in high school. Save some money and keep them home until they are mature enough to benefit from the experience. European and UK kids increasingly take gap years to travel, and they typically start college a year later than Americans already.

2. Decide carefully between a small college and a large one. In a large university your child may feel isolated and have trouble making friends; in a small college, everyone knows on Saturday morning what your kid did Friday night. Universities can be coldly anonymous but there is no privacy in small colleges.

3. Recognize that the person you drop off for freshman week is going to be an adult when she graduates. Reflect on the fact that about half of us meet the person we eventually marry while we are in college. Scary, isn't it?

4. Therefore, do not be a helicopter parent. If you want your student to have a miserable time, call him every day, call his professors when he does badly, be nosy about and interfere in his life as much as possible. Don't let him grow up.

5. Do yourself a favor and find a college near an airline hub if you are not within easy driving distance of the campus. You won't have to pick them up and deliver them to college, and they won't have to drive. Every year kids get killed on road trips home for various vacations. It is a predictable tragedy.

Wow, Ackislander, how to scare a parent! Do you have kids yourself? What size place were you "dean" of?

Have had to deal with helicopter parents as a teacher but have also had to deal with college administrations so hostile to parents that some serious problems got dangerously out of hand before anyone decided to believe parents on an issue instead of telling them to take a hike.

No, you shouldn't hover and should be giving your kids their wings, but NO you shouldn't abandon being their advocate if you see things going wrong.

And what was the point of talking about dropping off a child and graduating an adult who's already met their future spouse? Yes, your kid will grow a lot in college, but they don't do it in the first week there.

The first semester can be rocky for both students and parents and finger-shaking at anyone probably isn't helpful.

The business of scary stories of kids dying on car trips home is just over-the-top if what you're trying to do is give parents the confidence that their kids can take care of themselves.

Although your comments about large vs. small places are valuable, the rest of your comments are IMHO a little weird.

Dear HKP,
There is so much worry over things that don't matter (nice dorms, pretty campus, good climate) that it sometimes pays to stop and take a look at some of the things that do.

Academic excellence, a wide variety of course offerings, and an intellectually and culturally diverse student body and faculty are the most important for intellectual and personal growth. But I assume that everyone knows that.

Every single one of the schools the posters wrote about provides a fine education and has hordes of loyal alumni. Thus a successful college experience depends not on the institution but on the student and sometimes on the parents. Not everyone stops to think about that.

Yes, you are right. The vacation trip issue is over the top. Withdrawn.

I do think it's important to consider the location of the school in relation to an airport; the location of the airport in regards to winter weather; and whether or not nonstop flights will be possible.

Because over the four years, the airfare and ground transportation to and from the campus really adds up. Our last school was a $40 cab ride to and from the campus/airport. That added $80 to each trip. Sometimes it was possible to share a cab, or to take a shuttle, but not usually so. Shuttles wouldn't show up reliably, and friends' travel schedules vary widely. At least she could travel non-stop by air.

Our current campus is just a $10 cab ride from the airport, and a non-stop route, so that's as good as it gets.
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