I'm guessing here - but I'll bet that 80-90% of first-time tourists don't even rent a car while visiting San Francisco on a 4 day (or less) visit. They walk or take public transportation - so street traffic is not an issue for them. I can drive from the northern edge of SF (GG Bridge) to the southern edge of SF in 15-20 mins - and never get on a freeway. Same thing for driving east to west on Geary. When I worked in downtown San Francisco, I had several co-workers who lived in the City & didn't even own a car. There is even a "car-share" program in SF (don't know much about it) which might be a good idea for these non-car owners to use for trips outside the City. There are lots of people who bike to work from areas withing SF that are considered "far away" (Inner Sunset to downtown, for example - more than half-way across SF). San Francisco is only 49 Square miles - 7X7.

Can't say most of these things about LA - which is why we moved up here.

Stu Dudley

<<<I can drive from the northern edge of SF (GG Bridge) to the southern edge of SF in 15-20 mins - and never get on a freeway. >>>

Well, to be honest, you'd be hard pressed to do that ON a freeway :-)

No sense bashing one location or another. Travel is about discovery anyway. Fodorites are here to help! I could post some relatively easy and fun things to do in LA area, but I'll wait for star48 to post some questions first.

Star48, when you are ready to ask about LA, there are a number of us on Fodors who will help you figure out how to maximize and enjoy your time there!

>>you'd be hard pressed to do that ON a freeway <<

East on Lombard to Gough. North on Gough to Fell, right on Fell, left on Octavia to the Central freeway, & then 101.

The only thing I might be "bashing" is all the time spent driving on freeways from site to site in LA.

Stu Dudley

I know - my point was you can't get from the Golden Gate Bridge across town to 101 south on a freeway.

>>you can't get from the Golden Gate Bridge across town to 101 south on a freeway.<<

Back about 40+ years ago, a freeway linking 101 to the GG Bridge was planned. They were going to knock down many Victorians in the Alamo Square area (including the famous 'Postcard Row") to make the connection. Thank goodness - it never happened.

As you know, there are fewer miles of freeway in the City today, than there was in '88 (before quake). There is the beautiful Embarcadero today, where an ugly & view obscuring freeway once stood. I was opposed to removing both the Embarcadero & Central freeways in the 70s & 80s when those ideas were first considered. The '89 quake resolved the conflict. I will admit that I was wrong - big time - in my support for the freeways.

Stu Dudley

Thanks for all your suggestions. As for Phoenix, we really want to go. Can anyone tell me how long the drive is from LA to Phoenix...we don't mind long drives. We've driven from Montreal to Miami several times.

LA to Phoenix, about 6 hrs actual driving time.