Daniel Williams

Hi

For the past 7 years I have lived in relatively large cities, Montreal and Baltimore. I'm quite specialized professionally (science) and recently I saw a position at UVM which is just up my alley.

I must say, most towns in the 35,000 person range I wouldn't even consider for a career but Burlington catches my eye because of its proximity to Montreal, where I have many friends that I don't see nearly enough. Also Burlington seems a little more "lively" than most towns its size from what I've read, with a pedestrian-friendly lived-in downtown and good music scene.

In places I live, I enjoy being able to walk to (or public transit to) things I need such as clothes/grocery shopping, few restaurants, entertainment. I like seeing people out-and-about; places that become ghost towns after 5 don't appeal to me. I'd rather not get a car and live downtown if it's possible, and just use the public transit to UVM(I don't like the idea of starting my car every morning and shoveling the snow.) I realize I would not have much diversity, but Montreal is not far.

Anybody have any thought as to whether Burlington might suit me?

DAN

PS I hear Vermonters can be a hard lot to get to know. Hard to make friends?

bm

Hi-
Burlington IS a great city, but it is certainly a lot more laid back and quieter than the city I now live in (Boston). I grew up in an even smaller town in VT and went to UVM and fell in love with Burlington.
Downtown Burlington is very compact and you would definately be able to get around w/o a car. The only thing downtown does not have is a supermarket. There are lots of convenient stores and a couple natural food stores, but no full service supermarket-they're out in the "burbs".
You are right that Burlington has a vibrant music and arts scene. Some fairly big names come through there before they go "mainstream". Things tend to quiet down in summer when the students go home a bit though.
As far is being a good fit for you, I can't answer that. If you're looking for the wild night life you can find in the city, you're not going to get it. A good number of students who come from larger cities end up leaving because they had a hard to adjusting to the "slower pace" than what they were used to.
I would suggest going up and spending a long weekend. Hang out downtown, go to the bars and music clubs. See for yourself. As far as having a hard time meeting people, you'll have no problem. It's kind of a Vermont "myth" that the locals are cold to strangers-you may find that a bit in the more rural areas and amongst the "vermonters" who have lived there for generations, but not so much in Burlington.

bm

Forgot to mention a couple other things-there are regular buses to Montreal via Vermont Transit, and Burlington airport offers daily flights to the DC area as well as NYC and Boston.
It does get COLD in the winter, but since you lived in Montreal, that probably is not much of an issue with you!
If you are a skier, you are within an hour or so of some of New England's best skiing-Stowe, Sugarbush, Mad River, Bolton etc. Not sure if you can get there via public transportation though-UVM has bus trips, but I think it's for students only.
Burlington's newspaper is also online: www.burlingtonfreepress.com
If you have any more questions, post back!

Boots

I spent a fair amount of time in Burlington in my 20s and loved it! The main thing that struck me about this town is that it is liberal and laid-back. There's a number of colleges there which contributes to the great atmosphere. Even for the permanent residents, everything seems more relaxed and casual. People wear jeans and a nice sweater to plays and symphonies. The nightlife is not wild, but it definitely doesn't close down at 5p.m. either. Go for it - you won't regret it!

Daniel Williams

Thank you so much for all your thoughts bm. Very much appreciated.

You mentioned that there's no supermarket downtown. I don't need some big, fully-stocked place, but are there smaller grocery stores or individual places to buy e.g. canned goods, bread, meat, fruit, veggies?
Also just out of curiosity, any pharmacies, repertory cinemas, video stores, gyms near/in downtown? (As faculty at UVM, I likely would have access to some sort of gym, I would imagine.)

I just wanted to mention that I visited Burlington around 7 years ago very briefly, saw the UVM campus and Church Street area. I remember thinking it seemed a pleasant place...I also remember that one could not order a pitcher of beer or some such rule.

Again, thanks for sharing your first-hand experiences. I love Boston and hearing someone living in Boston praise Burlington definitely wins the town points in my book!

charles

I wanted to weigh in as another BOstonian who loves Burlington. It's a lovely little city. I love Boston, but I would give serious thought to moving to Burlington if it wasn't so COLD. If you can tolerate the cold in Montreal I imagine the cold in Burlington (probably less) will not bother you.

Cathy

We also love Burlington and have friends that moved there and love it. I must say you should go and visit before making a decision if you have not been there in 7 years - you will be surprised at how much the area has grown- not so much Downtown yet the surrounding area has many large chains that have opened in the last few years- I believe the words the local paper described it as Urban/Suburban Sprawl. Still, the area is lively, great restaurants, stores and coffee shops!Being near the lake is also a nice feature if you love the water! Best Wishes on your choice.

bm

Daniel-
There are mom and pop type convenience stores in Burlington so you definately would be able to buy your staple groceries there. There are plans to build a supermarket downtown, but from what I understand there is a battle brewing over what kind-a conventional full service store, or a large food co-op. Yes, there are pharmacies downtown. The Flynn Theater is the centerpiece of Burlington's arts scene-they host movies, theater, and music concerts. Not sure about gyms, but UVM has good facilities. There are also lots of good restaraunts. Will you be renting or buying? The housing market is pretty tight there right now as Burlington is now being "discovered" as a great place to live. If I were you, I would definately go for it, but definately visit before you make any firm decisions!

Daniel Williams

Wow. I'm very impressed with all the positive comments and appreciate everyone's thoughts and suggestions. Thank you one and all!

At first I would probably rent...I'd be a single professional guy, so I would not need/want anything huge. Does anyone have any idea on housing costs? A one bedroom with living area for entertainment would be perfect.

I must note that while Burlington is not quite as cold as Montreal, in Montreal it's pretty easy wintertime to get around. I lived 7 minutes from the Metro and the Metro was 3 minutes from my work; also, one could always taxi it or take the metro/bus to a spot very close to nice restaurants, entertainment. In wintertime at the coldest, it was rare that I would actually be OUTSIDE for more than 15 minutes. It looks, though, that if I time the buses right from UVM to downtown Burlington, I'd be OK.

Well, I've decided to send in my application and push former supervisors for recommendations. Know that your words definitely played a part in my decision to do so. If I get an interview, that will give me a chance to check out the town a little more closely.

lisa

A good friend of mine moved from Washington DC up to Burlington several years ago and absolutely loves it. Had no trouble meeting people, found it very easy to get involved in the community, found housing to be reasonably priced compared to here (ended up buying an old Victorian fixer-upper).

BTilke

Daniel,
From time to time we've mused about moving to Burlington ourselves someday (but opted for the Olympic Peninsula in WA state instead) so I've done some checking into housing. First of all, the rental market is tight to very tight, as it is in any attractive community with a good sized university and a fair portion of young professionals. The picture is brighter if you're willing to buy, there are some good deals on townhouses, condos. They may not be in the heart of downtown Burlington, but they're close to bus lines, bike paths, etc. The many two bedroom townhouses/condos we looked at in 1999/2000 cost between $75,000 to $140,000 depending on square footage, amenities (garage, basement, 2+ bathrooms, etc.). As you get closer to the heart of downtown in some of the upscale condos the prices shoot up. Way up.
If I were you, I'd look for a modest 2 bedroom townhouse/condo with 1.5 baths, a fireplace (a MUST for those winters!--not to mention single guy romance possibilities), a garage if possible (for storage and resale value, even if you don't have a car) and plan on spending about $100k or so. Contact any real estate agency in Burlington (Century 21, etc.) and they'll be happy to send you a full relocation package with detailed info on housing in your price range.

Sarah

Daniel--
Actually, there IS a supermarket scheduled to open within weeks in Downtown Burlington.

PLEASE note: Housing is very, very hard to come by and quite expensive--I've been here for 10 years and I can honestly say that prices for purchase are beginning to mirror the Princeton, NJ area. And renting? Don't even think about it...less than a 1% vacancy rate. Unlike most of the folks who have responded, I LIVE in Burlington (and worked in affordable housing)...do not come here without pre-arranged housing. We cannot support those already here. And there are NO condos in the area for under 100k...and with a fireplace and a garage? No way.

The nightlife is primarily college students, with a few new "grown-up" (read--those of us in our late 20s can go without being thrown up on by some sorority brat) bars popping up. They're nice, upscale and ridiculously expensive, but better than the meat markets.

The arts are alive in B-town, the music scene is not any longer. Not like it used to be. We are not EVER a ghost town here, actually. There are many more than 35k people here, especially with the student population! Check out www.sevendays.com and you'll see what I mean.

There is plenty of access to gyms, video stores, etc. We really are just like any other city, simply not to scale.

good luck!

charles

Mirroring princeton? That seems unlikely. Cna you really not find anything under half a million in Burlington? I'm really dubious.

ALF

You can buy a very nice home for $200K - less if you are willing to commute from a satellite town. Burlington is a wonderful little city, and the surrounding towns are great too. As a UVM alumnus, I can also tell you that I think its a great school. They have perpetual funding problems, as the State legislature is always a bit too parsimonius with education. Some of the buildings are in need of renovation, but many have some great ivy-league-style character. Winters can be long and brutal, but the summers and autumns make up for it (mostly).

Sarah

Be as dubious as you care to be. There is plenty of housing stock in Princeton under 500k...and, as I'm sure you don't know, this area is a lot like Princeton in that "princeton" often means West Windsor, Ewing,Lawrenceville or any surrounding area...it simply reads better. Burlington proper has very little available housing, and goes either sky high ($300k plus) or "first time"---which is around $140k (not exactly a bargain--it's generally run down). The areas surrounding Burlington have very little available stock and it too is expensive. It also sells as fast as it is listed.

The economy here, unlike Princeton, does NOT warrant prices like these. Listen, folks--all we're trying to do around VT these days is get people to do some research before they move here to live the country folk dream...by all means--DO COME, but know that there is very little housing, even less affordable housing, and a whole lot of people already here that need it too--the market is tough, tough, tough.

soundslike

Sounds like sarah is trying to keep people from moving to Burlington and driving up housing prices. Understandable, but I would check in person before listening to her. According to realtor.com there are 50 places available in Burlington between 96,000 and 200,000

Sarah

Actually, SARAH is trying to keep people from foolishly moving to Burlington without knowing what they are getting themselves into---the onslaught of people who think because VT is a tiny little state it'll have just TONS of oh-so-sweet oh-so-affordable housing are really suffering. You have NO idea what it's like...$96k??? Give me a break--did you research at all? Do you know the neighborhoods? Are you ready to pay 100k to live in a 600sq ft rundown home? Super.

Housing prices are driving up regardless of who moves here. DO you know the local economy? Do you know how few well paying jobs there are here? Really, soundslike, tell me all about it---being a resident of Vermont like you are, right? Keep it to yourself until you know for sure.

I'm simply tired of people seeing Burlington on the latest "top 10" cities list and coming here with no clue---it hurts them and it really hurts those that are already here. Plain and simple, until you have been here (and not when you were a frat boy at UVM 10 years ago---NOW), don't give bad advice and DON'T dare second guess people who live our housing crisis on a day to day basis.

Paul

I'll ignore the UVM frat boy comment (because I was one) and agree with Sarah---how can people who don't live in a city say that information coming from a person who lives there is invalid?
I remember Burlington beginning it's housing crash a few years ago, and friends that still live there say it's worse than it ever has been..and looking to improve anytime soon.

It's a typical story, city makes best place to live lists, city gets lots of people who want to live there, city can't physically handle it...no one seems to care or do their research and show up there anyway.
Pity--because the town IS fabulous.

soundslike

$100,000 for 600 square feet? sounds like a bargain to me. I'm more used to hearing 350,000.

So Sarah, if its so hard to live there, have you moved? The more you say, the more it sounds like you just want other people to move to Burlington - which will undoubtedly raise housing prices.

And what about a response to the facts? Ie the 50 places available under 200k?

Sarah

Well, yes, if you live in an expensive urban area (ie Boston or NYC)..of course, one would expect high pricing. How foolish are you to think they are in any way comparable?

Oh yes, going back through my posts, it surely does SOUND EXACTLY like I'm calling it hard to live here. And that I want the housing prices to go up. I've gone on and on about wanting to move, haven't I? Wow. Selective reading is a gift. I don't want to move, I want other people to know what they are getting into...because we have had a serious problem with people accepting jobs and beginning a move without housing. Then they get here, and they have to live in extended stay hotels for a few months. We don't want people doing that--it sucks for them, it sucks for us, it sucks for the families already here who can't find housing either. How hard is that to understand?

OOOOO--a whole FIFTY places under 200k??? FIFTY?? Are you kidding? FIFTY openings for literally hundreds and hundreds of people seeking housing on any given day. Not to mention that those "postings" (as I've said before) are generally gone as soon as they are listed...and not removed from the web with any speed. There's your FACT. Local news coverage ran stories yesterday of the onslaught of phone calls from people recently who want to get out of the big city...and are stunned to hear from actual realtors (just to get that FACT straight for you) that there is such a huge shortage of ANY housing, especially affordable.

Soundslike, you know absolutely nothing about this situation. You do not live here, you haven't any idea. Find the corresponding state of your residence, and throw inaccurate ideas and accusations around there.