I think re visiting a class, it is true that it has to be taken in persective but my daughter (who is a freshman at Williams College) in giving advice to my son (junior in HS) says it depends whats important to the kid. For her goinng to class allowed her to see how engaged the kids are in the learning and also to see what college classes are like and what she wanted in them. Profs were part of it but not the most important part since they tend to be excellent everywhere. It's the kids that are different. That's how she ended up chosing her top school. It's not the thing that is the only thing to do but it is one bit of info (along with talking with kids.. I find you have to be pretty specific since the kids almost always say they like it. So more What do you for fun on Saturday night? Do kids stick around on campus or leave to go to the big city? Of course, your kid has to know what he/;she wants but its as good a way to pick a school. If you have a smaller liberal arts school around where you are you might stop in to see if it feels better. I myself (and I'm a prof at a large state research university) am biased. What you can do is if you don't like UP, head on out to Swathmore. Look up a post on fodors about someone else's college trip from Hawaii. they ended up loving Swathmore and hating UP. (which I liked but my son wanted more green space)>

"Profs were part of it but not the most important part since they tend to be excellent everywhere."

Baloney! Ivy-league professors get their positions based largely on their reputations, not on their teaching skills. Many professors at prestige schools are highly distracted by their writing, travel, research, consulting, etc. My daughter and late husband attended an Ivy (many years apart!) and both reported that the quality of the classroom experience was so poor that my younger daughter didn't even apply. My daughters' friends who chose some of the excellent smaller schools (Amherst, Wellesley, etc.) are much happier with their experience.

Kids choose colleges for different reasons; parents too. When visiting collegs with mine, I felt it important for them to ask questions like the following: Does the school offer the courses I am interested in pursuing - when can I take those courses (how many core, how many elective, when in my 4 yrs there, what are the criteria to obtain my major/s. Most importantly was: what "type" of learner am I? Do I excel more in small, intimate class sizes with more of that give and take discussion and what is the opportunity for further relationships with professors than outside the classroom setting - can I learn well in a large, auditorium type lecture setting, how many of those are required, will TA's will teach my classes/ how is the breakdown / lectures vs. smaller groups. Which of these opportunities- all or some - does this school offer for me and in what combinations?

If I am looking for (research opportunities, internships, etc) will I have that chance, with my academic standing, interests, etc at this school/ how and when?

What is offered as far as study abroad thorugh that school and others they have access to offered by other schools/universities, semester or year exchange, internship semesters, etc - if they are interested in this.

It is important to remember the child will be spending four years of their life at this new home, and their needs are the ones that must be addressed to find a good match.

Also we added to this: what type of campus/social environment did they want and why? Will they have the chance to do what they love whether it be sports, club sports, theater, arts, music and at what level?

Sometimes it comes down to, after the acceptances are in of course, to simpler choices/ facilities/dorms/cost/scholarship/loans/the dining hall or jsut hte fact that they felt "they belonged" on one campus more than another.

One of mine chose Middlebury, a small liberal arts college in Vermont over Columbia b/c her final decision, based on many of the above as well as her wanting four more years in a different setting than a city, and yes, the ability to still ski and enjoy other things she liked, a more contained campus experience rather than having a city as her campus, and the feeling that she'd end up in a city for grad work anyway at a larger university. She's now in nyc working and applying to grad schools in cities.

Many friends thought she was nuts to not go to the ivy, just b/c it was an ivy, but it was an excellent match for her.

Son also ended up at a small liberal arts in Maine, Colby, for many of the same reasons. Academics he wanted, plus location for other outdoor environmental opportunities less available in a city.

Daughter never ended up leaving campus during her 4 yrs, as she felt she traveled enough thru other opportunities; son is a sophomore and has already done one semester exchange and is doing another in the fall, one in Germany, one in India.

I feel they need to look at different types of schools (large, small, Ivy if they qualify, universities, colleges, etc to really see what is out there, since they haven't done this before and visiting allows sthem to really ask themselves some of these questions and more and make the best decision they can, and if it's the wrong one, thankfully there is tranferring option later if they were wrong.

Sometimes it comes down to - I want to be able to do a radio show (just a random example) and are my chances better at a smaller school to get more opprtunity and experience in this than at a larger school with more kids bucking for the same position.

And if htey know what they will major in, look for the school that offers a good program for that - least they find themselves in a school that doesn't just because of the brand name.

THere is nothing wrong with the Ivy's or the smaller colleges or the larger research univiersities, there is no wrong or right, no one for everyone, the individiual student is going through a process and asking questions to learn more about themselves, their learning style, what they want, and trying to sort it out and choose the best for themselves.

I found it one of the bigger decisions they had to learn how to make, a good process for them as to how to look at life choices and what goes into a decision, that will also help them in deciding future issues. Most of all, it should be a fun and interesting time as they look at themselves and learn things about themselves that they perhaps had not thought of before.

Those are excellent suggestions, escargot. Many of those questions can be answred before you even leave home, based on introspection or research in school catalogues. We can only hope that the OP's son has already determined that he wants a large urban high-powered school filled with other Type A overachievers.

I would like to add that when students are first thinking about schools and figuring out what type they want (big/small, urban/green), they can visit local schools that might not otherwise be a good fit (e.g., not offering the right majors, not being far enough away from family) just to get a feel for what appeals to them physically.

For instance, my younger daughter, so sure that she wanted an urban environment, was surprised to find that she also wanted a green, closed, community-type campus rather than the type of city school that's scatered along the public streets.

I think that's the beaurty of these trips is that the kids often delete school from their lists.

Mine thought she'd love NYU and dislike ("all girls")Barnard; instead loved Barnard and didn't even finish her app for NYU. Dislike Chicago in general despite high expectations.

Also thought she'd love Boston College, but didn't- the admissions people, the shape of the campous, the location. And although one of her best friends ended up there and loves it, my daughter dislikes it even more than she did in the beginning.

BU turned out to be her choice and she still is amazed how perfect it is as she finishes freshman year.

PS-My girlfriend's daughter is the one who loved Swarthmore..This from a kid who always thought she ONLY wanted to go to Stanford. April 2 is the day when she'll know what her choices are. The waiting is the hard part!

The best part of kids in college...? You get to go visit them!I'm off to NYC and Boston next week!

Best advice given during a college planning session for parents at our HS was given by director of admission at an elite school - "The toughest college, the most elite college your kid is able to get into may not be the right college for him/her"

And as a graduate of any "Ivy", I find it amusing that they were originally grouped together as a football conference, not as a mecca for the intellectual elite.

sactomama -

Just dropped in on this thread. Lots of very good advice. I would just like to addd that you may want to stay closer to Penn's campus during your Philadelphia stay (although staying in the historic section of town is quite lovely, it may be a little far). You can check out this site: http://www.philadelphiasheraton.com/About_01.asp for accommodations very close to campus, and a very short taxi ride from 30th Street Train Station

Then, if you have time after you Penn visit, most definitely visit Old City and the historic sections of Philadelphia, getting there either by bus or subway (see www.septa.com)

Best of luck on your journey and fact-finding - and hope you enjoy the city of Brotherly Love (my hometown). Feel free to ask any more questions about Philly - hope I can help!

Maybe I was being too kind re profs (I am one actually) but I guess I was thinking in the context of small liberal arts colleges (I went to Smith College, my daughter is at WIlliams College) but other kids who are at small liberal arts colleges that are less "competitive" all find their profs are great but one is frustrated with the lack of intellectual focus of her classmates. I agree that you need to be more careful with the ivies re profs. I think some (e.g., Yale) is known for their emphasis on undergraduate education others (eg. Columbia and Harvard) may be less so. I have to admit I have not checked that out, just through rumor and friends. But kids are happy at the schools. It's important to find out why on your trip...