ATM Alert-Please Read!
 

WATCH THOSE DEBIT CARDS! I use to have the kind with the Visa logo and when my wallet was stollen, the thieves went to town! It took me so long and such a hassle to sort through it all. The money is immediately withdrawn from your account and you could be wiped out before you even know your card is gone. You can find yourself with a "0" balance when you think you have money in your account. Now the ATM card I have requires a 4 digit PIN so if lost or stollen, the thieves can't use it since they don't know the PIN. If it has the Visa/Mastercard logo, it only takes a swipe...no PIN required.Don't get the Debit cards with these logos! Don't learn the hard way like I did. Mary

So sorry for you Mary. Hopefully, you were able to recoup all your money. I have the type with the logo and you're right, it only takes a swipe. No one ever ask to see my ID, especially where I use it most often...buying gasoline! Sorry for your incident!

So Sad to hear. I'm calling Bank of America Monday to look into changing my ATM card! Thanks.

Good advice - and somthing that people may not think about when preparing for their trip.

Unfortunately, this has become way to common and there should be some legislation against these nasy Debit cards. I had mine switched to a straight ATM about 6 months ago after one of those 20/20 type TV shows and I feel so much safer! I still use it to purchase many items and don't feel like it's much different than my old debit card....but now my purchases require a PIN number! Merchants are suppose to check for other ID but many don't. I suppose with all the fraudulant ID's made, this wouldn't really stop a thief anyway. The original ATM was only to be used to withdraw money out of an ATM machine but look where it's gone. It sure could ruin a vacation! Sorry Mary but thanks for warning so many unsuspecting travelers.

Get copies of the signatures!<BR><BR>I think rules on debit cards vary by state, but I would suggest you get copies of the charge slips. If the signatures do not even closely match your own, you could argue that the merchants did not use due care to insure the card was being used by the named cardholder. Merchants should use diligence in accepting the card, and looking at the signature is part of it. BTW, in New York state the merchant is NOT required to obtain additional information in most credit card sales.<BR><BR>I have a debit card w/ Visa logo, and know that the amount I'm responsible for ($500 vs $50) over a regular credit card stands, but enjoy the convenience of being to use it when a merchant accepts Visa, but not eft/debit.

While travelling, it's probably best to leave the debit card at home. You simply to not have the same rights of recovery as you do with a credit card. ANY establishment can use your number and expiration date if you've used it there WITHOUT the card. I've read many horror stories. A particularly interesting one was where a clerk in a tee-shirt shop was running card numbers from the previous day's transactions for the current day's cash sales and pocketing the cash. This would be much easier to resolve when your statement comes with a credit card. Everyone with a debit card should obtain a copy of their bank's "agreement" phamplet and study it.

H-E-L-L-O....that's just it, you don't sign for your purchases like you do with a credit card!! It's a Swipe and go basically. I too was ripped off...my losses were minor compared to others. $200+ at Target for video games. My bank manager had the nerve to tell me "Oh, you're safe with a Debit card because they request I.D." I told her not to insult my intelligence...obviously when the thief purchased $200+ from Target no one asked for any second I.D. <BR>Luckily, I was in my own home city and realized it the same day before anymore purchases could be made. This has to be some type of money making thing for banks...this is all I can conclude.<BR>GET RID OF YOUR DEBIT CARD IF YOU HAVEN'T ALREADY. Carolyn

Mary, so sorry for what happened to you. I refuse to use a debit card with no PIN. I cut them up when they arrive from my bank.<BR><BR>On my credit cards, I write in BIG letters just above my signature ' "Ask for photo ID" and then highlight it with a colored marker. Do clerks ask me for additional ID - maybe 1 out of 10 times! So much for taking extra precautions. <BR><BR>I asked one clerk why he hadn't asked me for the photo ID, and he said ..... 'your signature matched the signature on the card". I told him that if I was it had been a stolen card, the signature would have looked even better.

My ATM came with the Visa logo though I never requested it this way, why is this? I'm sure it MUST have something to do with the bank making money! I'm glad to hear this alert. It's nice to be able to share this information to help others avoid the same misfortune.

Of COURSE it has to do with the bank making money. If you use your card as a credit card, as well as an ATM card, they get transaction fees from the merchants.

Could someone explain how the banks make more money if the card has the logo than without it. I changed mine to NOT have the logo but I still use it the same as I did before when I make purchases etc. Since the money comes out automatically (with or without the logo) how does the bank make more money with the logo?? Thanks for educating me. Anna

Radio Host Clark Howard has warned people for years to get rid of Visa/Mastercard debit cards. (clarkhoward.com) gives some horror stories....He calls them "fake credit" cards. A co-worker got burned on this and had to file a seperate dispute for every single purchase....something like 32 purchases (all were under $20, used at such places as Blockbuster, Walgreens, etc.)I think he eventually got all his money replaced (?)but it was a huge hassle for him.

There is a new scam involving ATM cards (not VISA) here in Alberta. Apparently, through the video cameras at various gas stations, the crooked staff have the camera trained on the ATM machine. From there, they are able to dicipher the PIN #. And they are able to now recreate the ATM card. Apparently a lot of people have been bilked out of tons of money. The staff only stay at a job for a few days and then move on.<BR><BR>The recommendation is to always cover your hand when entering your PIN #.<BR><BR>A couple of years ago, I had about $1500 disappear from my Royal Bank account through ATM withdrawals. I took issue with it with the bank as I knew I hadn't made the withdrawals. To no avail. They said that their cards are infallible. Guess they have been proven wrong now. <BR><BR>So, do be careful even with your ATM's.

Here is the website that spells out the dangers of the Visa/Mastercard Debit cards:<BR>http://clarkhoward.com/shownotes/2001/07/30.html

Anna, as a small business merchant, I can tell you that the bank charges merchants a percentage for every credit card transaction (anywhere from 1.5 to 4 percent, depending on volume). However, if a pin pad is used, instead of the percentage there is only a transaction fee (like 50 cents). So you can see why the banks like the no-pin-pad situation. Up til now, I haven't had enough debit card volume to make buying the pin pad cost effective - they charge hundreds of dollars for these ten-cent gadgets. I'm starting to have second thoughts - I didn't know the customer had a higher risk. And Nina, I'm one of the few merchants who actually LOOK at the signature. If there's no signature, we require a photo ID. You wouldn't believe how surprised and even affronted people get, but we do it anyway. I love the new cards with photos on them. Thanks for the heads up.

Thanks Joan for such a good explanation. Makes me so angry at the banks...grrrrrr...<BR>to: r-travels ([email protected]<BR>If you want the convenience of a Visa card (like we all do) why don't you just get a "real" Visa card so you can review the charges BEFORE you pay your bill?<BR>Did anyone else see that show (maybe 60 minutes or Dateline?) where the person lost thousands of $$ and hadn't received any compensation?? Mary, have you received any of your losses back?

I am paranoid and suspicious about money, so I have always shielded the keypad when I input my PIN, and I even try not to let the people in line see the name and # on my card when it's in my hand!

I have heard that if your credit card gets stolen, you are responsible for the first $50 that was charged before you reported it stolen. With a debit card, it's $500. So when my bank sent me an ATM card with a Visa logo, I called them and said I didn't want a debit card, just an ATM card. So they sent me one without a logo. HOWEVER...I was out shopping one day and realized when I got to the front of the line that I didn't have my credit card on me, just my ATM card. Surprisingly, it still worked as a debit card.

Yes, they work as a debit card (P.O.S.-point of sale)as well but with the protection of knowing a PIN is required. With the logo debit card, not only can you make a purchase with just a swipe, you can get cash back as well. The thieves will have merchandise as well as spending cash!

I'm confused by this post. I have two VISA check cards, for accounts at two different banks. You can use them as a debit card (with a PIN) OR as a credit card, no PIN. I called both banks and one said my liability was only $50 on each, and even that could be waived, and the other said NO liability. What am I missing here??

Chris,<BR>I think the point is that this could wipe out your checking account without your knowledge, you could be in a foreign country, it could happen on a Sunday when your bank is closed etc. It could really ruin your vacation by not having access to your own cash. In foregin countries, most travelers now depend on accessing Euros or foreign currency from ATM machines. Even in the USA, travelers access ATMs in cities away from home. Now as to ultimately getting your money back....you may very well prevail but a seperate claim form has to be filed for each and every charge. Is this something you would look forward to? Who is going to cover you in the meantime? Disputes are handled with individual bank who issued the card, not with centralized Visa/Mastercard. It's the opposite of a real credit card where you receive a bill and can file a dispute for a fraudulant charge BEFORE you pay your bill. The bottom line is to get the card without the logo and that requires a PIN. This way if the card is lost or stolen, it won't benefit anyone who tries to use it since they would not know your PIN. This is a Huge Scam for many thieves because unlike credit cards, you don't sign your name...just swipe and leave with the merchandise and maybe even some cash back. Is this more clear? Consumer advocates are advising you to get rid of this type of card. There is a website posted in a previous posting (within this thread) which discusses this.

Carolyn ([email protected]) -<BR>Maybe other "Visa" or "MC" debit cards work different than mine, but with mine, if I use it as a credit card, I must sign a charge slip - that's why I suggested using those as a defense - whereas when I use it as a debit card, I must enter the PIN to complete the transaction, and the PIN could never be identified from any other info about me, nor in my wallet.<BR><BR>To Anna ([email protected]): I have a "real" Visa, tucked away at home, and carry Amex with me. I prefer to have my purchases immediately paid for, even if I could benefit from the float. I'm willing to accept the increased risk, but it's good that others have been made aware of that risk via this forum.<BR>(there is no x in my eddress)<BR>

Interesting....there must be different kinds?? I only use mine for withdrawls from an ATM machine but on several occassions (when I'm out of cash) I've loaned it to my teenage daughter to use it to fill up her car or charge fast food. She said no pin nor a signature was required. She used it right at the pump, not inside the station. Mine does have the logo, the more I'm reading, the more confusing these cards seem to be.?? I'm afraid I have the BAD kind like Mary had! Ida

I think this is why I was confused, above. When I use my VISA check card at a restaurant or store, I have to sign a slip. If I run it through a machine, or go to an ATM for cash, I have to enter my PIN. However reading this it occurs to me that someone could use the number and expiration date and charge stuff over the phone or the Internet and my account would be deducted. So I'll pay attention to these risk issues.

I'm like you Ida...I think I too have the wrong one. I don't recal having to sign anything or enter a pin on my small purchases.I seldom use mine for anything but cash at the ATM machine, once in awhile for gasoline....never sign anything or enter a pin at gas station.Hmmmmmmmmm....

This seems to be a popular thread on the Europe Fodors board since being overseas and experiencing this is the worst of the worst. Many questions that you all are asking have been addressed in the Europe postings.

Well,we just returned from 3 countries in Europe...France, Switzerland and Italy, I'm happy to report that we had no trouble using our ATM card whatsoever...even in tiny towns, and (like others) shortly before departing the USA on April 30, 2002...we too changed to an ATM without the Visa/Mastercard logo. All you need is your PIN (4 digit) and hopefull you will have no trouble whatsoever. We had a glorious, though some rain, vacation and obtained cash easiliy in each country we visited. Don't hesitate to convert your ATM with peace of mind, no problem without the logo as the bank may lead you to believe..?? MerrilyS.

When you have a "check card" from the bank, it works as an ATM/Debit card and as a VISA/MC. Either way, the money comes immediately from your checking account. You are responsible for the first $500 of any fraudulent transaction with a Check card used as an ATM/Debit card. This is because there is added security with the PIN you must use. You are responsible for only up to $50 of any fraudualent charge when a check card is used as a credit card. When you use your check card as a credit card you are able to use VISA/MC in any dispute with the merchant. You also can do almost anything else that you can do with a regular credit card. So, if you only use your card as an ATM/Debit, always putting your PIN in, and someone makes note of the PIN you are using or an employee at the bank makes note of it, and they get a hold of your card or clone the card, you are out $500! But if you use that same card as credit, and someone steals the card from you or clones it, the most you are out is $50. I have worked in the banking industry and I will now try to be more clear with customers on how this works. I am amazed that there is so much false information out there. FYI, im most check card used as a credit card fraud cases we waive the $50 charge. In most cases with the check card used as an ATM/Debit we make the customer pay the $500. Why?? They should have kept their PIN number more secure.

There have been many postings on Fodors as well as a show on Dateline, 60 Minutes articles in the Wall Street Journtal, websites, etc. reporting unfortunate travelers who lost their ATM cards (in USA, Europe, wherever) where their checking accounts were literaly wiped out without their knowledge. Yes, aftet filing disputes etc. you may or may not be reimbursed your losses (varies from bank to bank and is not controlled by FDIC or any banking laws) but who wants to go through this when you're on vacation (or even if you're in your own hometown??? Although, this never happened to me, most feel more secure when a 4 digit PIN is required. Too many department stores, convenience stores and gas stations etc. only require a "swipe and run" without a PIN and no one asks for any additional ID, nor is a PIN required. If you work in the banking industy, you MUST be aware of the thousands of fraudulant misuses of ATM "swipe and go" type debit cards (not at the ATM machine to withdraw cash which as far as I know Always require a PIN). Eventually reporting, completing loss forms and getting your money back etc. doesn't do you much good if you're on vacation, only to find that your checking account has been depleted! Also, the postings I've read and the newspaper articles I've read affected many people who had their mortgage, insurance premiums, utlities etc. set up for automatic withdrawl from their checking account on a set day of the month. The automatic withdrawl is set up and guess what....there is no money in your account to cover this. Depending on how often you use your card, you may not even realize that your card has been stolen! Get you head out of the sand and read about the rampant fraudulant cases being reported by unsuspecting card holders. The safest way is to eliminate the VISA/MASTERCARD logo which was put on ATM cards (without the card holder's requesting this). Without this logo, the card user will ALWAYS be required to enter a PIN....when making purchases. Personally, I switched mine about 9 months ago after a local Sacramento TV report and it's well worth the extra few seconds it may take to be required to enter my PIN. Prior, I found self service gas stations to be the worst offenders. When I had the Visa logo on my card....NEVER did any attendant ever run out to my car and request a PIN, ID etc., I'd just fill up my car with my debit card and be on my merry way. Looking back it almost seems criminal, I just never considered the downside until the public alerts. Craig Elenham

There is a federal law. "Under federal banking laws, a consumer's liability is zero for fraudulent charges. The vice-president of Visa International states that member banks issuing Visa debit cards must cooperate with consumers and restore checking balances within 5 days. He states that no one should have to pay a penny in penalties and that debit card holders have the same rights and protections that traditional credit card holders have."<BR>I have worked in the banking industry for several years and deal with this on a regular basis. If you use that PIN your liability increases to $500. Which would you rather be out?? $50 or $500. What if you have a dispute with a merchant? If you put your PIN in then there is no recourse for you at all. It is like you paid cash. If you allowed it to be processed like a credit card and you signed the slip, you will have all the rights that credit card holders have and your dipute will be handled by Visa/MC. If you are not getting all of your fraudulent transactions refunded to you, it is not the fault of the card. You need to change banks and file a complaint with your state or the federal gov't.

Mr. Dennis Banker,<BR>You keep referring to "entering your PIN" or giving out your "PIN" out to someone (really stupid)...what is your take on the merchants that do not require a pin nor ask for any ID? I still have a debit card that was automatically sent to me (I never requested the change as I was just fine with my original ATM card from Wells Fargo Bank in California) that does have the Mastecard logo. I used it only today and it was at a small boutique, the type that others are referring to as the "swipe and go" type as I DID NOT have to enter a PIN nor did the clerk request any ID. If I were to lose this card, couldn't the thieves rack up purchases against my card without necessarily even knowing it was stolen? I too happen to have my mortgage and electric bills set up on automatic withdrawls....couldn't my card be stolen without my knowledge (I only use it approx. 6 times a month so it could be a week before I even noticed it missing)and the money be depleted out of my account? You make it sound so safe and protected but I don't think so. At least if a "real" credit card is stolen, you have the opportunity to see the charges on your card PRIOR to paying instead of the money automatically debited from your checking account. I too am considering switching my Mastercard Debit card from Wells Fargo Bank back to the kind without the logo?? Please explain. How could it NOT be safer if you are required to enter a PIN each time you use the card?? I see no advantage to this "swipe and go" type card....help me understand. Also, how come there is so much publicity on TV news etc. if their as safe as you make it sound?? Thanks Janice

Dear Janice,<BR>Some merchants are equipped with point-of-sale debits. This is when you swipe yourself and enter your PIN. Most large grocery chains, Walmarts, Kmarts etc have this. The money is deducted from your account immediately, as if you went to the ATM and withdrew it. You can often get cash back with this. You will not sign anything or be asked for ID as this is not a CREDIT CARD transaction. Most merchants do not have this point-of-sale debit. They take Visa/Mastercard. When you give them the check card, or in some cases swipe it yourself, they get an authorization from Visa/Mastercard in the amount of your transaction. You will be asked to sign the reciept in almost all cases. You will not enter a PIN as this is a CREDIT CARD transaction. They do not have to ask you for ID. If it is a fuel purchase, a restaurant bill, a hotel room, a rental car etc they may authorize a different amount than the amount of your transaction. This authorization withholds an amount of money from your account. This is only temporary until the merchant submits the charge, which may take a few days. <BR><BR>To answer your questions:<BR>If you were to loose your card and the theives used it as a credit card, the maximum you would be liable for is $50. You do need to notify your bank ASAP that your card it missing. I suggest that you keep this card in a good place where you can see it everyday to make sure you have not lost it.<BR>The advantage to the "swipe and go" card is that you can make purchases anywhere in the world that take Visa/Mastercard. You also will not be charged extra for this. Many merchants are now charging fees for making a POS purchase (putting in your PIN). An example is Taco Bell/KFC. if you just swiped and went using Visa/MC then there would be no fee. You can use the card to make purchases over the internet and make travel reservations. The best benefit of the check card is that you are only liable for $50. Another excellent benefit is that you can follow the Visa/MC dispute procedure with merchants. For example, you buy a TV from Store A. You use your card as a debit and put your PIN in. I am right behind you in the checkout line buying the same TV. I choose to use my card as a credit card, or "swipe and go". We both get home and find out the TV's are defective. You and I attempt to return the TV's and the store is unwilling. I tell them that I will dispute it with VISA/MC. You have no recourse. They may give me the refund right then. If not, I go to my bank and submit a dispute through Visa/MC. The amount of the dispute is immediately put back into my account and I let my bank and VISA/MC resolve the dispute for me. You are left with a bad TV.<BR>Hope this helps. Remember technology is a good thing. Use it. Don't run from it.

No fuss and I don't need to worry ....I have a Visa as well as an American Express card for credit cards. I also have my bank ATM card without any logo (just the "plain card used for getting cash out of worldwide ATM machines). My ATM card does require a PIN so no problem if it were lost or stollen.... Obviously, with my 2 credit cards I see the bill before I pay so have the opportunity to dispute prior to paying if something is incorrect. Easy Easy...why all the fuss?? Ted