JungleCat

Ok, I'm no George Bush fan but I am horrified at the treatment we're getting from our "allies", particularly with the posturing on the NATO protection for Turkey. Now it seems like anything the US has a gripe about, they oppose for the sake of opposing.

Personally, I'm gonna scratch France off my list of trips to take. They don't like us politically, economically, or socially. Why waste my hard earned money there, especially since their current opposition is led by an elite that has major business interests in Iraq?

Just wondering if anyone else is po'd enough to cut their travels?

JCE

heres my take. The French et al say they don't dislike us,just our leaders. I am going to france in april and intend to keep my trip. The french leaders have weakened the influence of the UN with their politics,and I don't like that. But I still plan to travel there. BTW I am a Bush fan,not a Hussein fan.

GoTravel

The French government needs get a grip, regroup, and stop being so stupid. Would I boycott France? Yes, been there, done that, too many other great places to go. I like Germany but not what they are doing. France and Germany need to stop tearing NATO and the European Union apart.

wendy_wetson

Well, the Fodor's police will delete this post soon enough, but I just wanted to say the French have a vested interest in Iraq because they are their biggest supplier of arms and they also have a large interest in their oil business. Imagine that, it's going to be French weapons used against Americans. I feel like the whole world is ganging up against us and they can't wait to see us fail and fall.

Sarah

Jungle Cat they are responsible to their own people first. Have you noticed how many demonstrations there have been against this war in Europe?

What would you think of your President if he went against his people's wishes to serve the interests of another government. What would you think of any country doing that to their own people?

Just a thought not expressing an opinion for or against the desenting duo. Just think if your entire country is telling they don't want to support the efforts of a war you listen.

I would not curtail travel on this issue.

Wendy

Sarah I totally agree with what you are saying but the same thing IS happening here. How many demonstrations against the war are in your city. Here in Seattle they are everywhere all the time.

Governments have always done things differently than the voters have wanted. The history books are full of these examples.

Another thought, how would we feel if we were in the locations of France and Germany? This is in their backyard! We have no idea how that feels. I was in Europe during the Bosnia *war* and let me tell you it was frightning from London to Athens!

I am absolutely an American and this is not to bash my country but to say there are a lot of things going on that no matter what we think we will not have control over.

Wendy

doc_

Wendy,I'm sure the residence of NYC were pretty horrified on 9/11. That is what we are trying to prevent. This happens in our backyard now,did you forget? Maybe that anthrax was Husseins,I don't know,do you?

Sarah

Wendy that is not really the case here most are indifferent about this war. That is why we are seeing a thread on boycott, seems like mainstreamers can't fathom full support.

Yes in NYC, Boston, Seattle there are demonstrations but they are not examples of how mainstream Americans think, you know that.

Sarah

I meant to say mainstreamers can't fathom a country not giving full support in this war effort.

Wendy

Doc- 9/11 was horrific to everyone, of course I haven't forgotten that this was in NY and DC area. What I was referring to, which I think you know, is an on going full on war which could last years.

Sarah- not so sure about suggesting that mainstreamers are for the war. I speak to more people who are for finding other ways than are for war. Peace.

Wendy

cruelbee

Maybe if we just ask Saddam to join all the world leaders in a group hug, we can all have peace.

JungleCat

Sarah, my personal boycott of France is not a specific statement on the Iraq issue but rather a general feeling that the French really don't like us. From personal anecdotes to statements from the "cultural-elites" to government policy, it seems like they dislike us in so many ways. I feel silly spending my money there when there are so many other places to travel, even those that disagree with us on Iraq but don't necessarily find every opportunity to oppose and insult us (which is why I didn't mention Germany as "off my list").

Thanks for indulging, glad to see it was a civil discussion.

suzy

I heard that France has between 6-8 million Muslims in its country - and France hasn't been able to contain Muslims all that well (Algeria, e.g.)
I suspect they are afraid (as are many non-French) in the long run of what will happen AFTER we attack Iraq. Maybe they won't feel safer then with so many Muslims in their country.

Flyboy

It is the responsibility of those governments to represent what they see as the best interests of THEIR citizens. France and Germany are not allies of Saddam Hussein in this matter; they are simply taking a very strong stand in support of exhausting all options short of war and demanding a stronger case than the U.S. has been able to make thus far. While at some point that may prove to be an unrealistic position, it is a defensible point of view at this particular point in time -- (whether all of us agree with it or not and inconvenient as it may be to timing of mobilizations and stagings that they have had nothing to do with.) In view of that, I would not support a boycott of France or Germany based on this policy difference at this point. If their reluctance eventually leads to a workable solution short of war, then we should all be grateful to them. If they must eventually change their posture because facts surface and events unfold that change their view, then it will be an even stronger endorsement for military action at the time that it comes.

NotMe

Flyboy
I wish the French has such altruistic motives. However, I think their position stems more from the fact they are Iraq's No. 1 arms supplier and the country most heavily involved with Iraqi oil. Of course, the fact they get to thumb their noses at the US doesn't hurt either.

Fodorite018

Wendy I'm in Seattle too. This city seems to draw protestors for every cause. Thankfully, there have also been a lot of support rallys for our troops...too bad those don't get quite the media attention though.

Sarah

Jungle Cat Let me know where you find this country. I have never not picked up anti American attitudes in Europe. Rural places like Ireland, Scotland, Italy have less but I can still think of bad experiences there. Some British are equally pompous as the French. Just the other night here in NYC I had a British man tell me that he wanted to see America beyond McDonald's, he had been living in NYC for 6 months. 50 states, 240,million people, 3 time zones, and he thinks he will have trouble seeing outside of McDonald's. He went on to tell a joke about Irish drunks and I BLEW!!!! Kind of like a white American telling Native American drinking jokes with the white American DRINKING LIKE A FISH!!!!

Just have to be prepared for it. That is always the surprise for me. I forget that people can be hostile based on my home country that can hurt when you don't expect it. Never not a reason to not go though just remember how foreigners can be treated here.

Rick_Steevs

Hi All
I heard somewhere that in 20 years France will become a Muslim country due to the current and future amount of Muslim residents settling in France and the births of their children, who will be legal French citizens. In short, the Muslim population will explode while the Judeo/Christian levels or declines, making the Muslim religion the majority. Not trying to stir up any trouble and I don't know if this prediction is true. Just something I heard on talk radio. It would be weird if 30 years from now the "Beautiful Cathedrals of France" are replaced by the "Stunning Mosques of France". For those boycotting France and Germany, remember to boycott their products as well as travel services.
Happy Travels
Rick

Sarah

Suzy France could give rats *** about the Muslims. They have a history of treating them as third class citizens. I have read about this for years.

I remember years ago seeing bbc specials looking at murders of Muslims by police in Paris that went uninvestigated, routinely. Not one or two here and there but dozens of murders and annually. Remember this is France not the US. I would be interested to know how many of those Muslims even have voting rights.

I still see articles about lower standards of living even though France boasts that it is a socialist conscience. One standard for Christian French another for Muslim citizens.

beachbum

Flyboy (or anyone else),
What in your imagination would be a plausible "workable solution"? I can't see one. Short of revolution in this country (the US), we will always be seen as the infidel, and the target of terrorism. Help me out here, but I think a "war" against Iraq is really just one in an endless string of battles in the larger war against terrorism.