AirBnB is illegal in San Francisco,
 

and some people are losing their residences over it. Beware, if you are renting for vacations.

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/articl...ls-5381237.php

I'm certain the local hotel operators are happy, too.

I don;t know why so many people think this is a ploy of hotel owners.

What it really is are numerous complaints from legitimate tenants who find packs of strangers trooping through their private apartment building - creating potential security problems - as well as other unpleasant situations. (Recently in NYC an Air BnB host returned to find his apartment trashed by the renters to the tune of tens of thousands of $. I believe Air BnB is supposed to be reimbursing him (but would believe when I got the check).

But this is why legitimate tenants don't want packs of strangers that have not provided references - either financial or personal - trooping around their homes.

have read several articles in the Chron about people being evicted from their apartments because they rented out rooms. Use VRBO or hotels.....

" Use VRBO"

VRBO doesn't change anything. If it is illegal to rent out a space, it doesn't matter who lists the unit. VRBO, like Airbnb, is just a service that allows those with properties and those who wish to rent such properties to come together.

shar: >> Use VRBO or hotels…..<<

vrbo, airbnb, craigslist . . . same-o, same-o when it comes to legality (or lack there of)

Just to make it clear - it is NOT Air BnB doing anything illegal. It is the people renting out their apts short-term against their lease (contract) with the landlord. Or the condo or the co-op or the local ordinances.

And matching service is the same.

What I object to is that these services do not have a note on each listing in places where this is illegal letting the potential renters know that.

It is interesting, though, that VRBO has operated under the radar for years, whereas AirBnB seemed to draw fire almost from the start...

I would suggest that Air BnB has a lot more members/activity - and is therefore probably irritating a lot more other residents.

Also - they have had a lot of public press based on a couple of lawsuits - esp one renter in NYC who was being fined more than $20K until he promised not to do it again - and Air BnB tried to say they were "negotiating" with NY - only the city new nothing about it. They dug their own grave.

I'll be honest, I definitely would not like it at all if I lived in an apt building and people were renting out their apts to many transients, short-term, that they didn't know at all from internet ads who were coming in and out every few days. In fact, I would probably be really angry and try to stop it, also. Especially if it were a smaller building.

I have rented a few vacation apts myself, though, and I know I'm not a problem as I am very quiet and solo, but I can understand why people wouldn't like it. One place I rented in Barcelona had some apts rented by the building owners, though, so that was legit. it was kind of more like business apts, I think.

nytraveler on Apr 11, 14 at 10:18am
What I object to is that these services do not have a note on each listing in places where this is illegal letting the potential renters know that.

Maybe they don't have to? We rent an apartment, and in our rental agreement it states clearly, how many days a year we can have guests staying with us.

"Staying with you" may arguably be fine. "Staying in our apartment when we are gone" is ifffier. "Unrelated (to us or each other) people staying in our apartment when we are not there and arriving and departing with some frequency" will ring a lot of bells with the neighbors.

The issue is complicated and involves things like lost hotel tax revenue, reduced accomodation available for people looking for a place to live, as well as neighbours not being happy with transients.

Airbnb is only 6 years old. For whatever reason companies like VRBO did not take off as Airbnb has. Airbnb now takes a reservation every 2 SECONDS. That explosive and exponential growth is what has brought all these issues to the fore.

B&B's where you are resident when your guests are resident is not the issue. Nor WAS someone who occasionally rented out their place while they were away. The original premise of Airbnb was to rent out a bed when an event was in town and hotels were full. Seemed like a good win/win idea. However that premise is long gone.

The primary problem is people who now buy or rent properties with the sole intent of renting them out short term for as many nights per year as they can. Opportunists looking to make a buck and who couldn't care less about how it might impact anyone else.

The issue is complicated and involves things like lost hotel tax revenue, reduced accomodation available for people looking for a place to live, as well as neighbours not being happy with transients.

Airbnb is only 6 years old. For whatever reason companies like VRBO did not take off as Airbnb has. Airbnb now takes a reservation every 2 SECONDS. That explosive and exponential growth is what has brought all these issues to the fore.

B&B's where you are resident when your guests are resident is not the issue. Nor WAS someone who occasionally rented out their place while they were away. The original premise of Airbnb was to rent out a bed when an event was in town and hotels were full. Seemed like a good win/win idea. However that premise is long gone.

The primary problem is people who now buy or rent properties with the sole intent of renting them out short term for as many nights per year as they can. Opportunists looking to make a buck and who couldn't care less about how it might impact anyone else.

>>The issue is complicated and involves things like lost hotel tax revenue<<

AirB&B has agreed to start paying the 14% hotel tax in San Francisco & Portland, OR.

Stu Dudley

In NYC the lost tax revenue is just one part of the problem, though. For example, in my neighborhood, a lot of landlords are renting out apartments that might normally rent for $1500 a month at $150 or more per night (very cheap for accommodations in NYC, so they remain filled all the time), which nets the landlords triple what they can rent an apartment for by the month. (And some of these are rent-regulated apartments, making this doubly illegal.) Obviously, this takes badly needed housing stock away from long-term tenants, driving up rents even further. Or rent-regulated tenants sometimes keep their apartments, live elsewhere, and make a profit off renting out their units illegally. This is happening a lot in Stuyvesant Town.

Other people have created unregulated hotels in their homes, with in adequate safety features and no insurance to cover them if something happens. There's such a brownstone hotel around the corner from me, almost always filled with Australian and European tourists. So the owners of the brownstone line their pockets while the city gets no tax revenue and people are at risk. Both are a problem here. And that's really why AirBnB is so objectionable to many New Yorkers.

It seems to me that AirBnB is a glorified Craig's List. The founders' genius was in giving the casual practice of letting out a room in one's home *occasionally* a slick name, which suggests that services and guarantees are in place when they are not. But that genius is also their downfall. I think dulcius' explanation is a good one. Individuals here and there will always try to let out a room if the demand is there, but allowing loads of people to unite under a corporate banner has broken the camel's back.

(Block that metaphor!)

But do you know that AirBnB is valued in the $$$Billions today? Crazy.

One wonders where this leaves people who do home exchange, or house sitters for that matter.

I wonder about home exchange, too. Maybe it's different if no money changes hands?

Doug makes some good points. I thought AirBnB was originally supposed to be exactly what the name implied -- B&B meaning the hosts were there and renting a spare room. It has morphed into people renting out entire apartments short-term to others. Now renting a spare room is also probably illegal (under leases or city code), as you are running a business, but I don't think it would have become so popular or well-known if it had remained that way.

House sitters are employees or simply guests (if not paid), I don't really understand that question about how it leaves them. I have never heard of anyone making a house sitter pay them for staying there, but if so, I guess then it is the same thing, renting your place out.

I do expect home exchange is different because no money is changing hands, that's usually where regulations and laws step in, when people start running businesses, basically.

I haven't heard anything illegal about Couchsurfing, for example, where no money is supposed to exchange hands, as I understand it. They are fairly well-known now.

You have it right Christina, if no money changes hands there is no problem and if you have a legal B&B where you are resident while your guests are there, that too is OK.

Even if money changes hands, it can be legal in some cases. Many condominiums exist in popular vacation destinations where all the units are rented out and the owner only visits a few times a year perhaps. But they comply with all legal requirements.

Again, the issues have come about as a result of the EXPONENTIAL growth of Airbnb. Why that has happened, who knows, but it has. As a result, the Law of Unintended Consequences has come into play. http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tm...nsequence.html

As I wrote, the original idea and intent of the founders of Airbnb was a way to rent a bed or find a bed in a city when major events were taking place (say the Olympics) and the hotels were full. They rented out AIRBEDS in their apartment.

Few people realize that Airbnb, was originally AIRBED and Breakfast. Read the history here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbnb

It took 4 years (2008-2012) to reach 4 million bookings. It took ONE year 2013 to reach 9 million! They now say they are taking a booking every 2 seconds. That is 30 per minute; 1800 per hour; 43,200 per day; 15,768,000 per year projected for 2014 !!!! That's what EXPONENTIAL means.

Whether they will reach that number or not this year, the fact is they will reach a very large number. That number is too large to be ignored as if it were not going to have major impacts on many people in many ways.

The example Doug_Stallings gives of $1500 per month vs. $150 per night ($4500 per month) shows why this is attracting people who are in it ONLY for the money. It is no longer an individual renting a room or a bed now and then.

This post is generating a reasonable discussion of the topic. This topic has been brought up many times on various Travel Forums, not just Fodors. Usually it gets into a heated defense of Airbnb by those using the service. Usually, by people who don't really understand what the issues are or don't WANT to understand.

For me the biggest issue is neighbours. If you live in an apartment building and suddenly several units are being rented out through Airbnb, I doubt very much that you would be happy with having total strangers have access to your building and arriving/departing constantly.

In that situation, it becomes to me a moral question. Should you as a traveller rent through Airbnb in a residential building or not?

Since Airbnb does NOT screen listings to determine if they are legal or not, never mind whether neighbours object or not, that means the onus is on the traveller using the service to do their own due diligence to determine if it is a legal rental and/or if their presence will be welcomed or not.

There is something about this almos every day in the SF Chronicle. Supervisor Chiu offered a "sweeping" proposal yesterday, in the form of new "laws" (that seem to me to be quite un-enforceable and un-measurable). Today the Chron took a "go slow" position to the issue - ending their opinion piece with "the concerns of landlords and neighbors need greater consideration than Chiu's plan is offering".

There were three "letters to the editor" today that stated the concerns of neighbors having to live with short term vacationers coming & going - arriving at 3am, disturbing the "peace & quiet", and similar issues.

Stu Dudley

All good points. I completely agree about the issue of neighborliness: indeed, it's not right to expose your neighbors to people who are not only strangers to them but strangers to YOU.

Furthermore, as a condo board member, I would be very, very concerned about liability. If an Air BnB "guest" burns one of our buildings down, will our condo insurance still cover us? If a "guest" drowns in our pool, same question.

Illegal sublets pose a similar problem, except that a subletter has a vested interest in being a good neighbor so as not to attract scrutiny. Someone who is under the impression that they have paid for a room and have the right to enjoy it does not.

Btw, does anyone else think Uber is just like AirBnB?

I would just be very leery of staying in the home of someone I don't know.

Scroll through this long running thread to see comments over the last few years. I say 'scroll' as it is far too long to expect to read every comment.
http://www.fodors.com/community/unit...nd-lodging.cfm

Scroll through this long running thread to see comments over the last few years. I say 'scroll' as it is far too long to expect to read every comment.
http://www.fodors.com/community/unit...nd-lodging.cfm

I would suggest that condo or co-op insurance (I'm also a board member) would NOT cover either an accident to or damage caused by a paying guest. They would be in the building illegally (not a legitimate guest of a tenant/owner - but part of an illegal business) and that's just another reason that we don't allow this - besides the obvious security issues.

Not sure what would happen in the case of a rental building - but it would probably be the same - leaving both the tenant and the landlord exposed financially.

Dulcius, we have gone head to head on some issues, to the point of rudeness on both sides.

Thus I think it very important to thank you for your informed, intelligent, and well- reasoned contributions to this discussion.

I have made my own contributions on this topic elsewhere, contributions with a somewhat different focus. It would be superfluous to add to what you have written here.

Thank you.

LOL, these same comments on Airbnb, have got me plenty of rude responses on other threads and in other forums Ackislander.

Yes, Newbe, some of us do think Über is just like Airbnb, only harder to get to since they are domiciled in the Netherlands and lawsuits against them have to be filed there.

I am not a lawyer but spent many years reading and marking up legal documents and contracts as part of my work.

While things vary from state to state and city to city, carrying passengers for hire normally requires livery or taxi plates, commercial liability insurance (and the 50-100-50 that Über is requiring is laughable) and a driver with a commercial driver's license.

This is all going to get settled in massive lawsuits some day. Until then, why take the risk?

Many of these were issues in the UK mini-cab/black cab wars. Does anyone have good information on how that turned out?

I am curious about Uber because friends of mine who have used it in NYC are emailing around a petition to bring it to our city--and I can't understand their enthusiasm. In NYC it seems to me that Uber wouldn't exist without the taxi shortage that occurs at peak hours and in bad weather; unlike Air BnB, it's not reliably cheaper, nor does it offer a unique experience. Add in an untrained driver (yeah, I know some cab drivers aren't really trained either, but still) and, most importantly, no insurance that would cover driving for money, and I ask "why??"

Agree, Dulcius also now has my attention.

Have 15 3 BR, 2 Bath apartment bookmarked for possible rental next year in Paris on AirBnB.

I do know illegal apartments are being talked about in Paris/France.

We are still thinking about using the site, but certainly this conversation has us perplexed about what to do.

As long as each bookmarked apartment gives a street address I can usually pull up on Google other sites that have the same apartment for rent and has reviews.

No decisions made which way to go, but will have booked something by the end of July.

If I found anything on VBRO or Home Away or Owners Direct that accepted AX, they would be considered.

Don't get me wrong iris1745. There are legal rentals everywhere tourists are likely to want to go. It's simply that the onus is on you to do your own due diligence to make sure what you rent is a legal rental.

The insurance issue for example could be a nightmare if you fell down a set of stairs in a building say (Paris has a lot of buildings with no elevators) and needed medical attention.

Who would pay? Your travel insurance could well say, 'sorry, you were doing something illegal and your policy (all travel policies have such a clause)clearly states that your policy is void if you are engaged in anything illegal.

Checking references cannot tell you if a property is being rented illegally or not.

http://www.myfrenchlife.org/2013/02/...-under-threat/

Note it says that owners in Paris CAN convert their property to a commercial property and legally rent. Also note, the last comment re your insurance.

Aparthotels exist in many cities including Paris. They are perfectly legal.
http://en.parisinfo.com/where-to-sle...is/aparthotels

dulcius; Thanks. I do realize there are problems with on -line rental agencies.

But we have rented large villa's in Tuscany [2] and Greece [1].

So far no problems.

This villa has been rented for next year and I don't anticipate any problems. niceholidayvilla.com

However it is always prudent to be cautious as I never take any kind of travel insurance.

Without needing to explain why, I made a crass comment about you before, I apologize for the comment.

Water off a duck's back iris1745. I often make statements that annoy people. I really don't care if they annoy people. I have opinions and tend to call a spade a spade. If you do that, you get flack.

Yes, I have read some of your travel comments.

Our building doesn't allow rentals under 30 days. (Condo in SF.)

Did anyone see the recent Portlandia skit, Rent It Out? I enjoyed it, especially because I see those Pink Mustache unofficial taxis ALL over my city nowadays.

http://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=P7Y8KDRCUIg