I'm just wondering how you all feel about "escort" ads on Craigslist?

Escort ads really have nothing to do with a travel board.

But comparing disguised ads for prostitutes to disguised ads for illegal rental is a fair comparison.

That's my point.

You'll forgive me but you're taking me way out into the wilderness. I know nothing about "escort" ads, etc.

So, back to the topic.

nytraveler: you ask good questions but there isn't a way that most people can answer your questions.

First of all, if a law is poorly written, then it can be challenged. How many lawsuits? A few, many - it's up to the lawmakers to remedy a law that is unclear.

People can take issues up to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court can make a ruling, but that ruling can be overturned by Congress/other lawmakers. All the Supreme Court is saying is that the law appears to say such or so.

IMHO, this doesn't affect only airbnb, although it is probably the "biggest" entity affected by this law. Let's say a Mom and Pop live somewhere and while their son is away, they want to supplement their income by renting out the son's room. It used to be that people advertised in the local newspaper, posted the room in a public laundry, etc. - very "primitive" types of advertising. Today they use airbnb or Craigslist or a college website. These are the people who are affected also.

There are also the smaller B&Bs in New York who will be affected.

It's those with the big guns - the hotels, the condo associations - who tend to have a lot of say, but their say may not always be "right".

<<<People can take issues up to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court can make a ruling, but that ruling can be overturned by Congress/other lawmakers. All the Supreme Court is saying is that the law appears to say such or so.>>>

Well, except for this bit of mumbo-jumbo, I agree with you :-)

As far as I am aware there is no one filing lawsuits challenging this law. AirBnB did a lot of complaining and saying they wanted to "work with the city" but that just meant they wanted to be left alone.

Now that there is a specific ruling against them - they would have to challenge it legally. I can't imagine they will do so - they prefer simply to ignore the law and hope they will get enough naive people who will rent not knowing it's illegal.

I don;t see Air BnB rushing to challenge the law (since they know they will lose) - not would they take it to the supreme court (which I can't imagine would listen to something so local and without any sort of constitutional issues involved).

Just saw further information about this on the local news this morning.

The city has now established a task force which is investigating web sites offering these illegal rentals with the goal of identifying and fining those people renting apartments illegally. The fines for initial convictions range from $800 to $2400 and they can increase from there to up to more than $20,000 for multiple infractions.

Also the city 311 system is now being offered for use by legal residents who are aware than others in their building are illegally subletting. This is especially important for buildings in which the miscreant may be the landlord. For co-ops and almost all condos the board will take action, ranging from fines, to changing locks at the cost of the illegal renter, to act to rescind their residence in the building if they are repeat offenders.

New Orleans has laws on the books prohibiting short term rentals too but I'm not certain if that was just for the Quarter.

Good riddance, air bnb. What a lousy idea you were.

So, if I have met my prospective landlady socially, for dinner, say, it is legal for her to rent me her spare room, but if I have only met her over the internet (on Fodors, say) it is not?

I can understand landlords having clauses against sub-letting, and, although with much more difficulty, condo associations having similar requirements, but to have laws telling owners what they can do inside their own property is just ridiculous. I thought the US was supposed to be the land of the free. This is just to keep the hotels happy.

No doubt these laws are driven by the hotel industry, but why not? Tourist dollars support many city services.

Also, these laws protect the consumer from staying in unsafe dwellings that might not be up to code. And of course, these laws protect the consumer from fraud.

I don't see a downside to this law, thursdaysd.

I'm just as much a tourist spending dollars if I'm staying in a private house as in a hotel, and the profit from the rental will also be spent in the city, as opposed to going to a corporation based elsewhere.

How often are hotels inspected for safety? I would have had an easier time escaping the apartment I stayed in in NYC in case of a fire than I would have done the hotel.

And what about the acccomodation taxes that are not being paid by these illegal short-term rentals?

AIRB&B is curious to me. Like 'couch surfing' it sounds like a wonderful idea. AND if it is illegal, go to Hoboken. Rules, schmules.

thursdaysd -

These laws apply only to multiple dwellings - apartment houses. The do no apply to one or two -family houses (in which the owner has the right to do as they choose). However, two family houses are essentially unknown in Manhattan and single family houses are so expensive (anything under $5 million is almost unknown) that the owners are not likely to want to rent out rooms to strangers - although a small number do. There are a number of two-family houses in the outer boroughs - but they are typically not areas tourists would want to stay in - being too far from tourist sights in Manhattan.

As for condos and co-ops - the rules and regulations established by the other owners are made perfectly clear to potential buyers before the purchase - and if they don;t want to abide by them they don;t have to buy the apartment.

And it is a complete fiction that these laws are being driven by the hotel industry. Unlike many other places in the country in NYC the occupancy rate for apartments and condos/co-ops is almost 100%. People trying to buy condos or co-ops often find they have to pay higher than original asking price due to bidding wars. The issue with apartment rentals is that the landlord can make more money renting by the night to tourists (illegally) than to a legitimate local tenant on a 1 or 2 year lease - due to rent regulations. Some landlords are doing this and it is making the apartment shortage for locals worse.

The issue is nothing to do with hotels and everything to do with the shortage of housing - especially affordable housing - in NYC. (Typically the only places on the market for any length of time are the ones at the top of the market since most people can't afford apartments that rent for $10,000 a month or sell for $10 million.

The issue is nothing to do with hotels and everything to do with the shortage of housing - especially affordable housing - in NYC.

Says you. I would say the issue is more complex and multi-faceted than this.

Doesn't change the reality of the law. And these aren't 'rules' like those in a basketball game, 12345. This is the law. However, you do make a point in that New Jersey has no such laws and anyone can rent there for short term stays.

So, I need some clarification.

First: If a multi-family building in New York City does not have its own regulations against temporarily letting a room or apartment, it is none-the-less illegal, is that right? That is still the law telling people what to do on their own property.

Second: is this just a matter of a room, or of a whole apartment? I once rented an apartment for a weekend in New York, but not from airbnb, and I see that vrbo.com still has many apartment listings in New York. What's the difference?

nytraveler - it seems that your issue is with landlords, but in the case of airbnb one is usually renting from owners or tenants, not landlords.

"I once rented an apartment for a weekend in New York, but not from airbnb, and I see that vrbo.com still has many apartment listings in New York. What's the difference?"

There is no difference. Whoever rented this apartment to you in NYC for a short term stay was breaking the law.

I stayed in an apartment in Long Island City. The couple who rented it to us are the owners of the building. I asked her if it was legal, and was told that it was. According to some posters here, it was illegal as the duration was less than 30 days. This apartment was listed on VRBO and AirBnB.

nelsonian, When you asked the owner, did you really expect her to say it was illegal!?!

If it is a multi-family building (apartment house) then city rent regulations apply. This limits what landlords can legally charge for many apartments - especially affordably priced ones (less than I believe $2500 per month). If a landlord has an apartment become vacant with a legal rent of $1500 per month (based on the landlord beneftting from tax abatements to encourage middle class housing) he can make more money renting it out at $150 per month to tourists ($3K per month even if he rents it out only 20 nights per month). This is illegal - since in accepting abatements the landlord has contracted to rent the apartment long-term at rents based on the annual increases approved by the Rent Control Board. If you see a building with many apartments for rent it is likely this is what going on.

Another option is a landlord that does a co-op conversion and for some reason can't complete it and sell the apartments (if everything doesn't comply with safety and fire rules & regs the builder can't get a C of O) and without appropriate legal measures, including a sizable reserve fund, he can't sell the apartments - since no bank will give a mortgage on them. In that case he may sublet them short-term illegally (a couple of years ago one poster here apparently ran into this situation).

And I'm sure the owners would simply lie to be able to rent the apartment. Many people probably don;t really see this as a crime - and until the city enforces more frequently will probably continue to break the law.

And this has nothing to do with AirBnB - it applies to any company or individual illegally renting their apartments - including VRBO - if it's a multi-family building.

Again - the rental situation in NYC is unlike the rest of the country - and has been heavily regulated since WWII - when there was a huge housing shortage and a number of laws were instituted to prevent landlords from unfairly enriching themselves due to wartime conditions (laws similar to those in many other businesses at the time). They have continued in NYC since, except for a few years, we have had a housing shortage (except for the highest price ranges) here.