A trip to the SW: Not rushed, do it all, perfect time of year.
 

I read the post re very few posts of late in the US forum. So I am going to indulge in the hope I won't be run off by a crowd with torches.

As I told my financial advisor, I have a plan, thank you. I want below average risk, above average returns, and virtually no fees. Such a simple plan, why can't he understand?

So too for our forthcoming SW US trip. We want a trip that isn't rushed, but doesn't have any wasted time (or money) and the perfect time of year, notwithstanding that Phoenix is in the desert and Bryce is several thousand feet higher and very different climate. Surely we have enough pundits here who know the answer. Because it is a very simple plan. Oh, and we'll have 14 nights or fewer.

I want us to go in middle spring to Phoenix-GC-around the circle to Bryce, Zion etc.

This is likely an only trip. So we must pick with care. If it's in late April when we start, that's getting hot for Phoenix (as Canucks we will find anything over 80 degrees F hot), but we are trying to minimize encounters with snow in GC-Utah. Bryce in particular looks like a high likelihood for some snow in late April or even early May. Cold I can bundle up for, but snow is a bummer because of the havoc it can wreak on timetables.

So I need help thinking out loud.

Aside: Myer, I remember reading your trip report on your first visit to GC (and other places.) But while I can find several of your trip reports, I can't find that one. If you should chance to read this, maybe you will have better luck finding it?

May or September.

We've been twice in Mid-October and it was great, plus fall colors. Yes, the fall colors can be surprisingly good at some places in UT.

We've been 3 times in May. Been fairly warm all 3 trips.

September could actually be fairly warm. I think by May you would be fine 95% of the time in Bryce. You could save it for the last part of your trip. You can judge fairly decently about the weather based on when Bryce Lodge is open. April thru October. The last time we were in Bryce was 3rd week in May and it had been a super super heavy snow year. However, the entire park and trails were open. At the very end of the main drive thru the park, there was snow still visible that had piled up, but it was very minimal.

To me, the perfect trip would be starting out in Bryce around Oct 10th or so and going from there. My next choice would be April/May and ending the trip in Bryce, if you went with May. I think April and May you stand a chance of rain more so than October, but that's a crapshoot any way you look at it.

ven if the temps are in the 80's, no big deal. The mornings and evenings can have big temperature swings. You might be down in the 40's in the morning with day time highs in 80's.

If you want to see The North Rim of the Grand Canyon you will need to go after May 15 or before Oct 15.

Must you start in Phoenix? I haven't checked the mileage, but I think your driving distances would be less if you fly into LV. Are you considering including Moab, Arches and Canyonlands?

Because this question is never asked.

http://www.fodors.com/community/unit...d-zion-etc.cfm

April would be early for the northern parks, eg Bryce. Too cold for my taste. I also would not worry about 80 degrees.

Sue,
I tried to search for my report and couldn't find it.
I may have the original and if so I'll post it here.

I don't remember the tone of that report. That trip was intended to be my "trip to the southwest". Needless to say others have followed.

The Grand Canyon is one of my least favorite sights in the area.

I'll look for it.

Now, now, mlgb, I thought everyone was bored, so sought to indulge myself by asking a possibly redundant question. Besides, you all promised: no torches, no werewolves.

Thanks, Myer. I'm almost (almost) relieved you can't find it, some of my trip reports have gone AWOL, as well. The report I remember precisely because it was your 'the' trip and you've been back many times since.

Dayle - I want to see a cactus other than a miniature one in a plant pot. I've never seen a desert before. Hence Phoenix. One good thing - by that time of the year, hotel prices are dropping for some mysterious reason...

You could easily visit Bryce, Zion and the Grand Canyon (and more) in two weeks. But I'd start in Las Vegas instead of Phoenix. If you want to see desert you will have plenty of opportunity to do so there. Another advantage of starting and ending in Las Vegas is that you have a choice between two loops - one going through southern Utah one way and then northern Arizona the other, or you could go through southern Utah one way and then loop north through central Utah.

Oops, posted too fast. The above options assume that you're going to the northern rim of the Grand Canyon.

Sue, if you have flexibility to go in the fall instead I would do that. October would be best. In late April you will encounter snow and maybe ice on the trails in Bryce, possibly the higher elevation trails in Zion and also in the Grand Canyon. You shouldn't have any of those issues in October and it won't be super hot in Phoenix.

If your trip has to take place in April, you can make it work. It's unlikely that snow would cause travel delays and screw up your timetable. It would have to be a big storm system and that would be known at least a few days ahead of time so you could try to rearrange your itinerary and rebook lodging. The bigger issue is really just the lingering snow and ice on some trails.

If you just want to see a desert and some cacti, you'll still get that by flying into Las Vegas and making a big loop through Utah and around the Grand Canyon. But if you really want to go to Phoenix, I would suggest flying into Tucson and visiting Saguaro National Park before heading north through Phoenix to the Grand Canyon and Utah. You will see plenty of desert and cacti no matter where you fly to though.

Sue,
Ok, I found the report that I'll post.

However, I reread your starting post and a few things interested me.

You mention Grand Canyon, Zion and Bryce.
You mention that you have about 2 weeks.
You mention that this is a one-shot trip.

Depending upon where you've been, how mobile you are and if this is really your one-shot trip, I might plan a very different trip than the one you are planning.

The following is the original post of my 2007 trip to the Southwest. This trip was to be my "trip to the Southwest". Obviously I'm no longer 63.
- - - - - -

I must thank those who not only answered my questions but those of others that were relevant to my trip. While I'd hate to name names and omit some, there were several people who continuously answered questions. Special thanks to Dayle, dwooddon, Theweasel, USNR and utahtea.

Preamble
Planning of the trip started when I saw a picture of Bryce Canyon in one of my photography books. I decided I just had to go there. The trip then grew to include Zion Park (due to its proximity to Bryce Canyon) and Sedona that I had heard a lot about. I was then convinced that the drive from Zion to Sedona was too long for a one-day drive so the Grand Canyon South Rim was added.

The final itinerary was:
Bryce Canyon (2 days)
Zion (1 day)
Grand Canyon (part of 2 days)
Sedona (2 days)

Bryce Canyon was visited first because I originally expected to drive directly to Sedona and wanted to shorten the drive by leaving from Zion. Also, I wanted in-park lodging and getting those reservations was not easy. I couldn't get reservations for the required days if the order was reversed.

Personal
I'm 63 years of age and fairly active. For a month before the trip I added running and the Stair-Master to my regular exercise regimen. The reason I mention this is that the trip involved physical activity and payment of fees. All hikes selected were rated easy or easy-to-moderate.

Day 0 (June 4, 2007)
I arrived in Las Vegas on time around 2:40PM local time. The plan was to immediately pick up a rental car and leave for Bryce Canyon. Nothing seems to happen quickly. It took well over an hour to get my luggage and the car. Even though, had I not stopped several times to take some photographs, I probably would have gotten to Bryce Canyon in daylight. That would have been good.

On the way from Las Vegas I took Route 9 so as to be on the scenic route. This requires purchasing a Zion Park pass. Due to my age, I was able to purchase a Senior Lifetime National Parks Pass for 10 dollars. I had also read that this pass is accepted in place of the Red Rock Pass in the Sedona area. I asked how to display the pass and the Ranger at the Zion entrance gave me a rear mirror hang tag with a place to attached the plastic card. Isn't research great? I drove along Route 9, up 89, along 12 and down 63 into Bryce Canyon. A beautiful scenic drive even late in the day.

The entrance gate was unmanned at that time so I just drove right in. I had my lifetime Senior Pass anyway. I checked into Bryce Canyon Lodge and the instructions were "go to this parking lot and your room is in that building". Well, I drove to "this" parking lot and as it turns out it was the correct one. But I wasn't sure. Could see the lights from the building but in the dark didn't see the paved sidewalk 15 yards to my left. I walked over ground to the building and found my room. Unfortunately, there were four entrances and I walked out the wrong one and found myself in the woods. Eventually I ended up back in the parking lot. I took a suitcase and rolled it on the ground to my room. Of course I again exited by a wrong door and wandered in the woods until I found the parking lot. This time when I went to my room I noticed there was a stone wall outside the entrance that leads to the parking lot. The next morning I saw the paved sidewalk.

Day 1

Up early for sunrise at Bryce Point. Except for being cold and windy, the sunrise was spectacular. After watching this event for a while, I went to Inspiration Point. The lookout is about 75 yards from the parking lot and uphill. I walked and was winded. So much for extra training. That's what an 8,800 foot elevation will do.

On my way back to the car I heard a bit of noise to my right. I looked over and saw a deer walking. I immediately to a photo and then tried for a better angle. That scared it off.

I went back to my room, packed my backpack, put on my hiking boots (it was sunny, warm and a shorts day) and walked over to the rim (less that a 100 yards) and to Sunset Point (a couple of hundred yards to the right).

I decided to hike Navajo Loop (it's no longer a loop as the side leading the Wall Street is closed a quarter of a mile from the top due to a rock slide - they will be covering over the rocks this summer to make it passable) down and connected with the Queens Garden trail to go back up. The named Hoodoos are just the beginning of it. The more you look the more different shapes you can identify. I took a photo of what looked like an animal grazing with its owner behind it. I showed it to some people who asked where I saw that. It was directly in front of us. This is an excellent, easy hike and took a few hours.

I then decided to drive up the scenic park road and stop at the lookouts. In my opinion, past the Bryce Point turnoff, the only lookout different from any other is the Natural Bridge. It's very close to the road and truly fantastic. Since the sun faces you in the morning, it's best visited in mid afternoon when the sun is starting to go behind. Unless the plan is to walk the Bristlecone loop, I wouldn't bother going past the Natural Bridge. The best lookouts are Sunset Point (Navajo Loop trail head), Bryce Point and Inspiration Point.

In the afternoon I decided to visit Grosvenor Arch. It's about 20 miles to Kodachrome State Park and then another 10 miles on a dirt road. This road is impassable when wet. I found the road wasn't too bad and in most places I was able to drive 20-25 mph. Eventually I got to a little sign indicating Grosvenor Arch. There was parking for 3 cars (one pulled up right behind me), a picnic table and a 200 yard long concrete sidewalk. This amused me. I drove 10 miles on a dirt road and they have a concrete sidewalk. The Arch was truly impressive and worth the drive.

On the way back I stopped in Kodachrome Park. Not really much to see there. I decided to walk to the Shakespeare Arch. Once in the park, it was worth the walk. I also saw some other interesting-shaped rock formations. What looked like a caricature of a worm and also a clown. I guess the imagination was at work again.

I got back to Bryce about 6PM and went back over to Sunset Point. The Canyon was bathed in sun and it was still quite warm.

There was a sign indicating one side of the Navajo loop was only open for a quarter of a mile. Many people were going down that side and I also did. I was able to go right down to where the rock slide occurred. Some people said they had climbed over the rocks to the other side. Not me.

That evening I ate at one of the restaurants at Ruby's Inn just outside the park. Bryce Canyon is a bit isolated and there really isn't a town very close to the park (unlike Zion and Springdale).

On the way back into the park, the Ranger at the entrance mentioned that they expected a storm overnight and into the next day. Oh well, at least I got in one day.

Day 2
I woke up to much cooler temperatures. While there wasn't a storm, the roads looked a bit wet. I drove over to Bryce and then Inspiration Points. It started to drizzle, then got thicker and eventually turned white. Somebody forgot to tell them it's June. What was I going to do all day without even a tv set?

I went back to my room and by about 9:45 noticed the sky was getting much brighter. I pack my backpack, put on my boots (a jeans and sweatshirt day) and drove to Sunset Point (at that time I wasn't very confident in the weather so I decided to drive).

By the time I got there at about 10:30, the sky had turned very bright and there were some blue patches. People were starting their hikes.

I went down the Navajo Loop and then hiked the 3.5 mile Peek-A-Boo trail. This trail is terrific. It's very scenic and puts you in the middle of all the great rock formations. I highly recommend it. There were very few people on this trail and it's shared with horses so be careful what you walk in. Before reconnecting with the Queens Garden trail I went a quarter of a mile back up the closed side of the Navajo Loop until the rock slide blockage and then came back down and continued. This was a long day but the hikes were well worth it.

By about 4PM I was cold, tired and a few snow flakes began to fall. I was glad to be finishing. Rather than take the shuttle I walked the half mile from Sunrise Point to Sunset Point to get my car.

While most destinations are a "visit" I consider Bryce Canyon to be an "event". There's nothing else like it!

Day 3
I got an early start and drove the 80 miles to Zion Park.

I arrived at the East Entrance to Zion park about 9:30AM and there were two cars in front of me. I parked at the Canyon Overlook parking area, put on my boots and lotion (sunny and hot - a shorts day) and began the hike. I immediately noticed that the trails in Zion are narrower, rockier and possibly a bit more steep. I just can't understand a husband, wife and children hiking these trails. While the trail isn't hanging over the edge of a cliff, they're not far. It wouldn't take much for one of the children to jump towards a butterfly and be involved in an accident.

The hike was scenic, not too long or difficult and ended with a beautiful view of the canyon. It was definitely much warmer than in Bryce.

After returning to my car, I continued thru the last tunnel and followed the signs indicating that a red sticker was required to drive a private car to the Lodge. It was great to be one of the people permitted to do something.

I got to the Lodge about noontime and didn't check in then. I walked across to the Emerald pools trailhead. I decided that since I'm doing "easy", I would start with the Lower Pools. The walk was nice but I wasn't impressed with the result. I continued up to the Middle Pool and this was a bit more satisfying. After a few minutes and some photos, I decided to go for it. The Upper Pool. The signs weren't really very good and a few of us went up the wrong way. We finally reached a point where a decision had to be made. Going back to the Middle Pool and starting over seemed like a good idea.

The Upper Pool really was worth the additional hike even though it was a hot climb. We were rewarded with a large pool and flowing stream. A lot of people were in the water in spite of the sign.

I took off my backpack, put it on a stone and walked around taking photos. After about 10 minutes I returned to my backpack only to find it unzipped and a squirrel eating one of my granola bars. There are signs all around the parks warning people not to feed the wildlife.

Apparently, the digestive systems of the various animals are geared to their specific diets. When fed food they're not accustomed to, it could remain in their stomach undigested and they die of starvation with a full stomach. Sounds far-fetched to me but could be true.

After descending from the Upper Emerald Pools I returned via the Grotto trail (no signs indicating Kayenta trail). Just an additional scenic walk thru the canyon.

I checked in at the Lodge reception and decided to visit the Weeping Rock (not much to see) and walk the Riverside Walk. The Riverside Walk is a very nice, scenic, easy walk. It ends at the start of the Narrows hike. I had already decided that walking in water with a camera was not for me. I took many photos of mountains and the stream. I think I got a little carried away.

That evening after dark, I decided to take a walk around the main lawn in front of the reception office. I heard some noise on the lawn and noticed two deer eating grass.

Day 4
In the morning I saw some very large turkeys(?) walking in the same area as the deer the previous evening. Before leaving the park I decided to walk the Riverside Walk one more time. This time in morning light. I passed another couple of deer eating.

After completing the Riverside Walk a second time, I stopped part way down to see a place called Menu Falls. It should have been more scenic but the observation deck built there is actually too close to the falls. There's an interesting story about the falls and its lack of visitors. Nobody knows about it and it's not publicized. For many years the Lodge restaurant menu had a photo of these falls on its cover. Many people asked about it and it became known as Menu Falls. It's located between shuttle stops and apparently has about 10 visitors per day.

I left for the Grand Canyon but stopped in the Page area as I had added a few sights to my agenda.

"The Best Dam View" is a turnoff (free) from Route 89 just after crossing the bridge that goes from one side of the Lake Powell Dam to the other. I guess it's really the Glen Canyon Dam. A very good view and a short 15 minute stop.

I continued on Route 89 for a couple of miles until I saw the sign indicating Horseshoe Bend (free). I walked over to the sign and read that it's a three-quarter mile walk. I should have put on my hiking boots since it's in soft sand and fairly level rocks. It was a hot walk that ended at a cliff with no barrier, fence, screen or bar. Just a cliff.

Cliffs aren't for me but I had to see it. It doesn't stretch out. It goes straight down. I lied down on my stomach and crawled to the edge. What a sight!!

I then doubled back a mile or so and went east on Route 98 past the Big Lake Trading Post and another mile or two in the direction of the power station until I saw the sign for Upper Antelope Canyon. Twenty-six dollars later, half a dozen of us were on an open truck for the 15 minute dirt road drive to Antelope Canyon. I remembered to take with my tripod and it was needed. I must have taken more than 30 photos. The mid-day sun bouncing off the canyon walls and the hanging dust was truly amazing.

The canyon is about 200 yards long and almost perfectly level from front to back. A very easy meandering walk and photo session. The curved walls and reflecting light made for quite a sight that should not be missed by anybody passing thru the area.

I then continued driving towards Cameron and the East Entrance to the Grand Canyon. I don't know whether it's because the late afternoon sun was facing me as I stopped at the lookouts, it's difficult to get a perspective of that giant hole unless you hike at least part way down into the Canyon or because it's just not a beautiful sight, but I just wasn't taken with the Grand Canyon. It rates well to the bottom of all the sights I visited on this trip. If I had a choice between the Grand Canyon and seeing the sights around Page, Page wins with its dramatic few sights (and I didn't even go to lake Powell). Of course if you're hiking or visiting all of the lookouts, you can keep busier at G.C.

I stayed in a small cabin at Bright Angel and even had a tv. It was a fairly nice room.

I went over to Hopi Point for sunset and that was really nice even though there were some low clouds.

Day 5
I got up early and walked over to the Rim just as the sun was coming up. This was a very impressive sight and I walk about a mile or so toward the east and watched the sun begin to light up parts of the Canyon.

As I left, I stopped at several lookouts to get a view with the morning sun. My original plan was to backtrack out the East entrance and continue via Cameron. However, I exited the South Entrance and continued toward Flagstaff.

Since I left the Grand Canyon a bit earlier than expected I got to Oak Creek Vista by early afternoon. I stopped to take in the spectacular views down the canyon and of the road snaking towards Sedona.

En route I stopped at West Fork. Because of my Senior Pass, the charge to enter the picnic grounds was $4 instead of $8. I hiked for over an hour and after crossing the Creek at least half a dozen times, decided to retrace my steps. This was a nice introduction to the Sedona area.

I drove into Sedona to check into my motel. While the setting is unbelievable with the Red Rock mountains on all sides, the actual town didn't appear to be more than a bunch of motels, restaurants that close at 9PM, art galleries and service and time-share vendors masquerading as tourist information offices.

I had reservations at the Best Western Inn of Sedona. It must have been renovated recently as it had the look and feel of a new motel. While very close to the "Y" and Route 89A, it's located up a small hill and set back from the busy traffic. My room was on the back side on the main level, which due to the drive uphill is actually on the third floor. The units on that floor have two doors. One leads to the parking lot and the other to a very large patio facing Chimney Rock and some other mountains. Units numbered 318-336 all have the same layout and view. It's also possible units 300-317 have a similar view but may face the highway as well as the mountains on the other side. An excellent full buffet breakfast was included. I would definitely recommend this motel.

After checking in, it was off to the Crescent Moon Picnic Area ($8 entrance, $4 with the Senior Pass) and Oak Creek and Cathedral Rock at sunset. The woman at the entrance gave incorrect instructions for the sunset view so I'm glad I was there early.

The sunset and reflections off the water were amazing in spite of the people swimming in the Creek. Again I got carried away taking photos every minute as the sun set. I resisted taking any photos of the four weddings taking place around me in view of Cathedral Rock.

Day 6
Buffet breakfast and off to my first hike a little after 8AM. I selected Boynton Canyon. Not long after the start I wisely decided to detour up the Vista Trail that leads to a scenic viewpoint right next to one of the Vortexes. That's where the Kachina Woman is located.

After enjoying the view for a while and taking some photos, I returned down to continue on the Boynton Canyon Trail. In retrospect, I should only have gone a little past the Enchantment Resort's property. I did a lot of walking in the woods with no additional views and not even a surprise at the end.

After having in a quick snack lunch, I decided to hike the Devil's Bridge trail which is also in the same area. Finding the trailhead, however, was no easy feat. I ended up at the guardhouse of a resort. The person manning the station obviously was accustomed to this happening and gave me instructions. To find the trailhead, you drive up Dry Oak Creek and turn into the area where the red Rock Pass vending machine is located. There's a trail board located there. To get to the trailhead you've got to drive along a 5 mile long dirt, rocky road that makes the dirt road going to Grosvenor Arch (see Bryce Canyon above) seem like a paved highway.

This trail is pretty easy and quite scenic. When approaching the Bridge you can veer off to the left to get views from below. Then you can climb about 40 feet of very steep rocky stairs to get to the top. After about 10 feet I decided I'd had enough of my camera smacking the stairs in front of me. I know my limitations.

It was now mid-afternoon and I decided it was time to visit the other side of Sedona. I drove over to the southern trailhead for Bell Rock Pathway. It's located directly in front of Bell Rock, a very scenic setting for a uniquely shaped mountain/rock. I saw some people hiking towards and up the rock. That's not what I had in mind. I then realized there's a difference between the Bell Rock trail and Bell Rock Pathway. I wanted the easier pathway. I started to walk and photograph the Rock as well as Courthouse Butte directly to the left.

Eventually I met some people and they mentioned they had seen a trail sign for the Llama trail. I had seen photos of this trail and was happy to find it. What I did not realize is that this trail is new (few if any footprints to follow), has no rock cairns (trail markers) and is shared by bikes whose wheel prints go off in all directions. After about a half hour I decided to find my way back. This took well over an hour since every trail I came across seem to go in and up.

That evening I went to the airport vista to watch the sunset reflections off the mountains. The Oak Creek crossing and Cathedral rock wins by a long shot.

Day 7
Another early start to a day that had the best scenic hikes of my stay in Sedona.

I decided to drive back over to the Boynton Canyon area and hike the Fay Canyon trail. This turned out to be a very scenic morning hike. Much more enjoyable than Boynton Canyon.

After grabbing a quick snack lunch, I drove over to the South-East side and hike the Broken Arrow Trail. This was probably the most scenic of my Sedona hikes. There's a more or less parallel road maintained by the Pink Jeep Tours company. At one point I heard some jeeps and saw (and photographed) their attempt at terrorizing the customers on their roller-coaster ride. It was fun to watch.

After that I took a ride over to the Baldwin trail and walk about a half hour just to get in my last grabs at Cathedral Rock. By now it was getting late, very cloudy and started to drizzle a bit.

I went back to my room, started to pack and went out on the patio to take some amazing photos of Chimney Rock with the setting sun breaking thru the parting clouds.

This was my first hiking trip and other than the altitude, I was as prepared as I could have been. This was a great trip.

Final Advice
I would suggest that anybody going on a trip similar to mine wear appropriate boots when hiking to reduce the risk of slipping/falling or suffering a twisted ankle. It's amazing some of the shoes you see on the hiking trails.

While hiking or driving, stop when you want to enjoy the scenery. It doesn't take much to drive off the road, or trip on a hiking trail. It could be a long way down.

Make every effort to hike with another person.

Carry a lot of water. It's not just to avoid dehydration but its also much more comfortable walking when your throat does not feel parched and full of sand.

I got quite carried away with photos which can be seen at:

www.travelwalks.com

Select the 2007 trip.

Although 14 days is a fair amount of time, I don't really see the point of doing a round trip itinerary. Assuming you are flying into your starting point and renting a car, I like open jaw itineraries. I agree that April is too risky with cold and availability in the Utah parks. I'd go either late May/Early June, starting in Phoenix or Tucson, ending in Las Vegas OR September, starting in Las Vegas and ending in Arizona. I like the idea of also visiting Tucson and visiting Saguaro National Park. Then travel north to Phoenix, Sedona, South Rim of the Grand Canyon, around the Grand Canyon to the east to get to Bryce, then Zion in Utah then on to Las Vegas. I personally hate Las Vegas, but it's a good place to fly in/out of and it doesn't matter if a bit hot outdoors and you can always stay a night a relax at a resort outside Las Vegas proper.

Thank you everyone for chiming in. We've tried to make this trip twice before and each time something came up. Third time lucky I hope.

Shanti, google street view is a wonderful thing and you are of course right, that sure looks like desert outside of Las Vegas. (I probably HAVE seen a desert before, just not the kind featured in Western movies.) Oh, and I have a caveat about the cactus: it's gotta be a Saguaro cactus. I shall accept no substitutes. :)) Which means, having to keep below a certain elevation if my research is correct.

Wherearewe - I think I still want to see Phoenix, I'm intrigued by the Hassayampa River preserve about an hour outside of Phoenix, and/or the Desert botanical garden and the Heard museum. The Heard should at least be air conditioned. As for outdoors, we'll just have to take an umbrella and broad brimmed hats with us for shade - I burn faster than Satan.

I'm tempted by your suggestion of October - that will be the fall back plan in case something goes wrong - again - this spring. One advantage of going in late April is that late April is not particularly pleasant where I live. October on the other hand can be very pleasant. I hate 'wasting' good weather periods because our winter is so long. Late May is so-so but it's also time to get the garden in. So I'm being fussy, I know.

Myer - that's wonderful, thank you so much. I shall enjoy re-reading it.

LeslieC - I toyed with the full circle as it's a bit cheaper (no dropoff fee for car) but the open jaw I agree is more efficient. I agree as well about Vegas - a little unfair to Las Vegans (??) as we've never been, but I think we'll get the gist of it in maybe 24 hours or so.

The ice on the trails is a bit problematic, I'll have to think on that one.

I will post my preliminary itinerary in my next post. It won't be anything exciting as it is just the variation of a standard itinerary that gazillions have done before. But I'm thinking out loud, as I said.

Day 1 (Fri) - LA. fly to Los Angeles. (I have my reasons.) Overnight LA.

A taste of Arizona

Day 2 (Sat) - PHX. see the Getty museum (missed on our other two trips to LA), take a late afternoon flight to PHX. Overnight Phoenix.
Day 3 (Sun) - A daytrip to Wickenburg (about 2 hours roundtrip) and the Hassayampa River Preserve (not open Mon/Tues), maybe the western museum in Wickenburg. Maybe see a few Joshua trees. Back in Phoenix, relax a bit.
Day 4 (Mon) - Tonto national Forest, maybe a Salt River kayak outing (as early in am as possible), maybe a horseback ride; back in Phoenix, see a bit of the Heard museum. About 1.5 to 2 hours driving today.
Day 5 (Tues) - SEDONA (about 2 hours). I'd like us mainly to catch a stargazing outing I've heard about. Still working on the other details.
Day 6 (Wed) - GRAND CANYON (South Rim). About 2 hours (plus gaining entrance, finding parking, etc.) Straight to the GC. We'll have to stash our bags at the hotel as we'll arrive before check-in, and park where we can. Balance of day scoping out the visitor facilities, catching the sunset, etc. I'm thinking of bringing good bike locks so we can rent bikes, cycle a bit, lock up, hop over to see some views, then hop on the bikes again (bikes not allowed on rim trails.)

Day 7 (Thu) - PAGE. 1.75 hours or so. Our plan is to make a leisurely exit from GC around noon. The afternoon we can catch some of the viewpoints, have a coffee and a bit of a shop at Cameron, arrive in Page and maybe catch a quick look at Glen Canyon dam. Not the best time for the overlook at Horseshoe bend, but that's another option.

I briefly considered Monument Valley but sorry John Wayne, but even with an overnight in MV or Kayenta that's a long drive (4 hours GC to MV, 3 hours to Page).

A taste of Utah

Day 8 (Fri) - BRYCE. We'll bypass Kanab for now and just head to Bryce. Officially 2.75 hours, but with stops, any weather delays, who knows. Afternoon (when it's warmest) try for a trail. Or maybe late tomorrow morning.
Day 9 - (Sat) ZION. Catch the sunrise at Bryce if we're not too lazy. The day's events will depend a bit on weather. Journey to Zion 1.5 hours plus stops, any weather delays.
Day 10 - (Sun) Explore a bit of Zion.
Day 11 - (Mon) daytrip to Kanab (1 hour or so roundtrip.) I'd like to take a tour to see a slot canyon - considered Antelope back near Page but it just sounds too crowded. I also like the greater flexibility of an extra day in the Zion area.

A taste of Vegas/return home

Day 12 - (Tues) to Vegas. 2.75 hours or so. An afternoon and an evening will give us a taste, maybe we'll discover we like the place enough to come back, who knows.
Day 13 - (Wed) more of Vegas, how much more depends on when we catch our flight home (could be a daytime, could be a redeye flight this evening.) Flight itinerary still to be chosen so this last day (or two) is still vague.

Requires a 10 day or so car rental, one way.

If you go in early May, Antelope Canyon shouldn't be too crowded since school is still in session in the US.

Lee Ann

Originally when you said you have 14 days to fly into Phoenix and visit the Grand Canyon, Bryce and Zion it sounded like you would have LOTS of time to relax, see the sights and explore. But now that you've given a preliminary itinerary and set aside 6 of 13 days for LA, Phoenix and Vegas....the rest of it sounds a bit rushed.

Sedona is better for a couple days IMO.

One night at GC is fine.

One night in Page sounds like a waste of a day if you're just going to maybe see Glen Canyon or Horseshoe Bend. There are far better ways to spend a day if you're never going to get back to this area.

A night at Bryce is good.

Two nights and days in Zion is bare minimum.

I don't understand the idea of backtracking to Kanab to see a slot canyon (it's 2 hours roundtrip, not 1). That is a waste of time to backtrack for a slot when Utah is full of slot canyons. Pick one that is right on your route and carve out the time to hike it.

My suggestion is this: either overnight in Page and visit Antelope Canyon the next morning, then drive to Bryce OR drive from Grand Canyon to Kanab and overnight there. Hike a slot in the morning and then continue to Bryce. Either way, you'll hike a slot canyon (Antelope or otherwise) on the morning of day 8 which will negate the need to drive back to Kanab on day 11.

That will free up an entire day to either add to Zion or Sedona, your choice.

Make sure you adjust to include the following:

1) Don't short-change Sedona. The town is really nothing but there are a few short hikes into the redrocks that should not be missed. Boynton Canyon Vista (not the longer, more boring Boynton Canyon trail), the view of Cathedral Rock from the Crescent Moon Picnic Area in the hour before sunset, either hike or take the Pink Jeep tour to Broken Arrow.

2) Make sure you get to Horseshoe Bend and Antelope Canyon when the sun is high in the sky.

3) Get to see a spectacular sunrise in Bryce Canyon. My Favorite is Bryce Point. Others have their's.

Hi there again WhereareWe.

Thank you for your feedback, I'm doing a few revisions already. (By the way my title is tongue-in-cheek, I know very well one can't have it all ways!)

I found a better flight route to LAS, so I am going to can LA and leave the Getty for another time.

so Day 1 (Fri) is fly to LAS, arriving early evening.
Day 2 (Sat) is a drive to Wickenburg (4 hours), via Hoover dam instead of Glen Canyon. We've been on dam tours before, so we won't be spending a long time there.
Day 3 (Sun) morning at Hassayampa Preserve, maybe the W. Caballeros museum, then drive to somewhere in Phoenix area.
Day 4 (Mon) - We could drive to Sedona after a kayak trip and/or the Heard Museum (mercifully open on Mondays) and make it 2 nights and a full day in Sedona.
Day 5 (Tues)thus is Sedona, night 2.
Day 6 (Wed) is still GC.
Day 7 (Thu) is still Page, but the day is mostly in GC. I'm using Page mainly to break up the drive between GC and Bryce, and thus to avoid having to rush out of GC since we only have one night there. We won't actually be spending a full day in the Page area.
Day 8 (Fri) is the drive to Bryce from Page. We could pencil a slot canyon en route. Still need to think on this, because doing so steals time from Bryce. I think I might still do a slot canyon as a half day trip from Zion for this reason, as we'll have 3 nights there, plus I can time the slot canyon for midday - but I shall sleep on it.
Day 9 after a bit of hiking in Bryce (weather dependent), drive to Zion (3 nights Sat Sun Mon.)
I think I see where I got the wrong amount of time between Zion and Kanab, I fed google maps the wrong search term. 2 hours roundtrip is indeed the amount of time, thank you for catching that!
Day 12 (Tues) is drive to Las Vegas since our return flight is from here.
Day 13 (Wed) is the return home; still working on the flight itinerary.

oops, Myer, just saw your post.
I am taking both your and WhereAreWe's advice re Sedona to heart.

I remember your advice re Horseshoe Bend, but I'm not sure if I can manage the timing. The slot canyon, whichever one we choose, we will try to time for midday.

Off to sleep on it, thanks all.

Page to Bryce

I've been on this road twice. Last time was year ago and they were improving it into a wider gravel road. NOT paved.

It starts at MP 17.3 off highway 89 west of Page.
About 45 miles later, driving north, you are now at Cannonville on highway 12 at MP 25.9 that is close to Bryce
It is named Cottonwood Canyon road. Very scenic. IF you have 4-WD, a side road goes to the absolute best 'mushrooms' (tall spire with hard stone on top)I've ever visited. Very scenic with deep slot canyon you drop down into.

Last year, when I was on that road a couple (he/she)from Poland were on their respective motorcycles.

http://www.americansouthwest.net/uta...nyon_road.html

And massive Grovesnor's Arch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grosvenor_Arch

Plus you can quickly see Kodachrome's very, very unique 'pipes'
http://stateparks.utah.gov/park/koda...sin-state-park

Vaga

We had snow in Arizona in mid May so you can't guarantee no snow even as late as that.
We have been to GC twice, and each time had snow. It wasn't enough to be a real problem, but on the May trip that was largely down to the ploughs being out and clearing the roads early.

Personally I hated Sedona. Too commercial and way too developed.

RVvagabond

Thanks for your reply. Aye, there's the rub, we won't have an AWD, or even if we do, I'm not sure our insurance would cover off-road use, if that makes any sense. But I've been studying up on this, I think we can make the Wahweap hoodoos at the trailhead at Big Water, about 25 mins from Page just off 89. I'll have to think about the arch.

hetismij2, I've heard similar, but there are some nice hikes, plus we may need to slow down at that point....

If you go to Sedona, take a Pink Jeep tour. Great experience.

As noted above, Sedona's downtown is not that big and it is touristy, but the natural surroundings of Sedona are breathtaking in all directions. If you like hiking, there are great short and long hikes everywhere. Be sure to try the Elote Cafe in Sedona; it is worth the wait! We spent a week in Sedona recently and loved it.

Horseshoe Bend and Antelope Canyon are very close together. Not more than 15 minutes or so apart.

Horseshoe Bend is about 3/4 mile out and it's level so no uphill. If you go to one Horseshoe Bend a little before noon that should light up the water and you won't have the sun in you eyes.

Then you can drive over to Antelope Canyon.

You'll see a Saguaro on the way north out of Phoenix but Tucson is where most of them hang out.

mid to late September would be a good time to go IMO.

You are basically doing what is called "The Grand Circle".

Is Moab (Arches & Canyonland (Islands in the Sky district.) part of your plan?

Starrs, voyager61, Myer, peterboy, thanks all for your interest and responses. I am taking note of all your tips.

peterboy, so the saguaro 'hang out' in Tucson. For a prickly plant, this sounds positively friendly. ;) Fortunately friends relate that there are a few in Tonto national park, as we aren't going as far south as Tucson. Next: I must resist trying to fit Moab in this trip, tempting though it is. Yes, I'm doing a Grand Circle because the dropoff fee for a one-way car rental is quite steep, it easily pays for an extra vacation day. Also air routing choices to and from LAS are at least numerous if not necessarily wonderful in terms of schedule. My latest prospective pick brings us into Las Vegas later in the evening, which puts it into the early morning hours of our biological clocks, but there it is. I can't have it all, life is so unreasonable that way...

myer, hello again. I remember from reading your report the first time that as a photographer enthusiast you have a keen eye for light. I am trying to keep your tips in mind. I notice Myer you didn't attempt either the South Kaibab or Bright Angel trails at GC, yet you did several hikes around Bryce which must have been almost as steep. Any particular reason you didn't, or were you just short of time?

Just wanted to chime in and put in a good word for Queen's Garden hike at Bryce. It is listed in the "easy" category and is leI ss than 2 miles, but I found it plenty challenging. I wished had hiking poles because it is very steep going down and coming up from the canyon. But it was definitely a great hike!

Jayne1973, thanks for the vote for QGarden. I hope we can find room in the luggage for (collapsible) hiking poles. Can you remember how long it took for that hike (distances are deceiving, I know, where elevation is involved...)

I would say it was at least two hours. We did stop and rest about halfway and eat a snack (including a little "juice box" of wine... ;))

Thank you Jayne. Snacks being the most important part of a hike, we shall allow at least two hours. Especially given the altitude and 'thin' air. By the way, I love the 'juice box' of wine idea...don't worry, it will only be a taste, we don't want to fall off the trail on our return...

I gotta say, prices for those lodges aren't exactly cheap. I suppose the law of supply and demand applies with a vengeance.

Sue, you are right, the lodges are priced based on location,location, location, not on how nice they are or what extras they offer. That said, it is very nice to be in the parks when there are so few other people and not to have to drive on curvy, sometimes hilly, roads with big animals like elk and deer who also use them to get from place to place when it is dark. One accident with the car would really make up for the extra costs.

This is more important for parks like Grand Canyon and Yellowstone than some of the others, but it is really nice to wake up and walk to the view or see the sunset and walk to your room, rather than to have to get into the car, drive in, find a parking spot, remember what you left back at the room and go back to get it etc.

emalloy, what a good point about the nighttime animals. And yes, the temptation would be great to grab a sunset view, and then try to drive back in the dark (or inbound in the dark for a sunrise). One wants a souvenir, but preferably not some unfortunate beast winding up as a hood ornament.

At Bryce we stayed at Ruby's, which is very close to the entrance, unlike outside-the-park lodging situations you run into at Grand Canyon and Yellowstone.

Sue,
That first trip was planned as a result of a photo of Bryce Canyon that I saw. So an extra day there.

I found the Grand Canyon photos I saw were underwhelming and had every intention the totally bypass it and go directly to Sedona.

I decided that with a stop of a few hours in Page, the drive might be too long. So I decided to spend a night at GC and take a quick look.

In my opinion, GC is at the bottom of all the sights in the area. My daughter went there with her husband after some meetings. She had planes a couple of days. She hiked the trail and called me after a day for more ideas. I sent her to the Page sights.

I had every intention of doing part of the hike at GC in the morning. Somehow I found my self exiting to the south and saw a lineup going back in. So I just continued on to Sedona and had a great time in the Red Rocks.

emalloy wrote what I always tell people about inpark vs outside the park. I'm sure those who stay outside and are very happy with it are not photographers or those who are intent on seeing wildlife. It's possible they'll see some but animals are most active early and late.

I've seen some wildlife (deer in Brice and Zion and wild turkeys in Zion) in the Utah parks but nowhere near what's in Glacier (MT), Yellowstone (WY) and Banff & Jasper in Alberta.

The most popular hike in Bryce is Navajo Loop going down (because it's steeper) and connecting with Queens Garden going back up.

Bryce Canyon is quite a bit higher than GC altitude-wise. Also, the problem with Bryce (unlike Zion) is that you go down first and then have to go back up. Also, Zion is 4,000 ft lower even those it's only about 90 miles away.

jayne, I've heard good things about Ruby's, too.

"Somehow I found my self exiting to the south and saw a lineup going back in."

Myer, it's obvious your genetic heritage involved an exchange of an eye for good photographs, for navigational sense. I laugh every time I read about your venture into your hotel at Bryce...trying to get back to the car to get your suitcase, and ending up in the woods. Don't worry, we once had to use a compass just to get us out of Shinjuku railway station in Tokyo. We know what it is to be directionally challenged, although in our defense that is one huge railway station.

Thank you for the info about hiking at GC. You are not one to be reckless when it comes to hikes. So I figure we can attempt the hike as far as Ooh Aah point; I'm going to allow two hours for this roundtrip, although many have done it faster.

Friends confessed that the South Kaibab was quite, shall they say, thrilling. One joked there was no need for directions to hikers to go to the cliff side when mule trains passed, he wouldn't go to the edge side under such circumstances unless at gunpoint (and maybe not even then). Such anecdotes are another indicator in favour of not being too ambitious this first trip, when it comes to hiking.

I take your point about Zion. The 'bad news' about hikes ideally should be on the outward journey, and it seems that's the case in Zion.

The only park you really need in-park lodging is the Grand Canyon. Tusayan is the next closest option and it's 12 miles from the entrance.

There is lodging directly outside of Bryce, and Bryce is a very small park so staying inside the park saves you maybe 5-10 minutes of driving? Depending on which viewpoint you choose, you may be driving to it anyway so don't put too much weight on not driving in the dark.

Zion is on the shuttle system by that time of year. Springdale is directly outside the park. Put those two facts together and you won't have any issues with driving in the dark, so again, don't let that be a factor in your lodging decision.

If you plan on being up early for sunrise, you'll see animals whether you stay inside a park or not. Same goes for sunset, if you stick around long enough to watch that you are going to see animals along the road whether you are staying inside the park or not.

You can't really see sunrise or sunset from the lodge inside Zion or from Springdale as you'll be down in a canyon with your views blocked. You'd need to get in your car and drive out of the main canyon to see either one.

Sue,

I'm not navigationally challenged. The problem was that it was dark. There was a very dimly lit sidewalk about 20 yards to my left while the building I was going to was straight ahead of me and slightly to the right. So that sidewalk wasn't in my view until the next morning.

Most importantly, I didn't realize there were two entrances; one facing the parking lot and the other in the direction of the Rim. By my third time going in I realized that the entrance in was going in was slightly different from the one I was exiting.

And I was tired by then.

At least it was a one time issue and once I saw the layout in the light it was fine.

Unlike our lodging at Yosemite. I better not tell that one or I'll be accused of being a Yosemite hater.

I more or less agree with WhereAreWe. If I had to pick any parks that have inpark lodging but none is available, Bryce and Zion would be the ones with acceptable outside lodging. As long as Rubys had availability.

However, if I had a choice at these two I would still take inpark.

About hikes. Even going up Queens Garden in Bryce could be an issue for some people. It's over 8,500 ft up. Most hikes in Zion are up first and then down. And Zion is also at about 4,500 ft. So hikes in Zion are less of an issue.