What college has 3000 square foot dorm rooms? Can we say "sour grapes"?

Well, GoTravel that 14 car garage is "under the house" along the beach, but the main house is something like 40,000 square feet and there is a 6,000 square foot "guest house". We won't go into the outdoor pool, gazebo dining room, bar, outdoor kitchen, spa area. The garage was a great place for us to build our Naples Players float for the St. Patrick's Day parade. Good thing you can't see this house from the street, or they'd be plagued with people driving up and trying to check in, mistaking it for a resort hotel.

Having seen a photo of Mikemos house, I must admit that if I had the chance to build a dream house in Mexico, I would ask him for ideas..It is so beautiful.

Patrick, sour grapes or just a healthy imagination LOL Treasure Island isn't even big enough to hold a house that big :D

I'm with Seamus, a flat in London or a Paris would suit me just fine, to hell with all those square feet!
((F)) Scarlett

Patrick,
The overwhelming majority of homes in the Centro have no garages and a 2 car is almost unheard of. A car is mostly a liability here, but having one allows us to travel widely in central Mexico.
M

Scarlett,

Thanks for the kind words. Now that we are "nearly" finished, I get some photos when the lighting cooperates and foward those.
M

Given all the homes and apartments I've lived in, I'd like to retire to something that wasn't a burden to care for. Depending on the climate, a nice, cozy cottage of about 800 sq ft would probably be good for one person IF I could spend most of my time puttering in the garden or working at my hobbies on a screened porch. If I was dealing with mucho heat or cold (or snow), I think I'd like something about half-again as big. You can only be in one room at a time, but if you're snowed in it sure is nice to be able to change rooms! A spare bedroom for a guest would be nice, as well.

By the way, RnRForever. When are we going to get that promised report of your spectacular voyage on the Queen Mary, along with the trip to Wales? We've been waiting patiently. Rather than posting comments like "boring" as a total post on other peoples' threads, your trip reports on your own exciting trips would be welcome relief from your other posts.

Mikemo, I was aware of that. I wasn't trying to put down the idea of a 2 car garage, but rather point out that what is sometimes a "necessity" in some regions is a "luxury" in others.

Ten years ago when we "downsized" from a house in Naples to a condo to make travel and retirement easier, one of our major requirements was a 2 car garage -- nearly unheard of in condos or villas here. Now they are becoming more usual, but we were indeed lucky to meet our requirement in "downtown" Naples with virtually the only condo/townhouse having a two car garage -- and a big one at that. Today one would not expect to buy even a two or three bedroom condo that fits a "luxury" moniker without a two car garage, yet alone a house.

I find the changes in housing priorities over the past century to be a fascinating subject. Clearly, with shrinking family size the increase in size of homes is pure self-indulgence. My favorite are the harried folks I know with two or three separate kitchens (family kitchen, caterer's kitchen, and summer kithen) who eat out virtually all the time. The same applies to bathrooms that rival those of ancient Rome when most simply take a quick shower.

Maintenance, taxes, and just furnishing these larger homes does not wealth in the long term create. With high ceilings and lofty foyers, the cubic footage to heat and cool rivals an indoor stadium. The psychological effects of hard, cold, echoing, canyonlike spaces indoors bears mention--most are not the cozy sanctuaries that other animal species prefer.

What will happen to all these large homes? Some are poorly constructed and will no doubt be bulldozed earlier than planned. But perhaps, with increased longevity and persons who unwittingly have been swindled a la Enron or have not saved enough for un-or under-employed senior life, we will see a trend toward communal living with multiple generations filling the McMansion's wings. The nursing home Medicaid spend-down alternative, to which many formerly middle class or even affluent succumb (ask my grandparents) only to be supported by taxpayers is not the answer

We live in 978 sq feet, 2 bedrooms, 1 bath. Even then, it seems like lot to clean, maintain and renovate. As a plumber visiting our home once said.."Hell, you can only ever be in one room at a time anyway".

RnR's little house is on a 36x60 lot so that square footage would have to go spiraling straight up, higher and higher, like his wonderful imagination. :D

West Coast Florida is lovely, a small house is nothing to be ashamed of.

I also recommend checking out the "Not So Big House" series of books. There are a lot of good design ideas in the books.

It's funny how you get used to the space you have, isn't it? A family of 6 shared a cabin with a loft for several months on PBS's Frontier House and then immediately moved into their new 7,000 square foot mansion after Frontier House ended. When the family was interviewed a month after the series ended they all talked about how incredibly lonely they were for eachother in their new home.

I've lived in the same 1400 square foot house for 30 years. It's almost paid for and would have been paid for if I hadn't refied some years ago. Paid 42,000 for it and it would sell for just over 300,000 at this point should I want to, but I don't. I think sometime in the not to far distant future we are going to see a "shake out" in the housing market. With the low interest and the "creative" financing being done..interest only loans and many differnt kinds of adjustable rate mortages, some people are in over their heads should the market stall. That happened some time ago in California and people were simply walking away from their houses and mortgages. The houses were worth less than what they owed on them. There are some times I wish I has some bigger spaces but in the end I'm fine where I am. I certainly have all I need at this point in my life. So I guess I'm one of those "poh folk" that RnR is talking about. Oh poor little me.

"some people are in over their heads should the market stall. That happened some time ago in California and people were simply walking away from their houses and mortgages."

Yes, but don't forget that those "stalls" have always been temporary. Basically speaking anyone who wasn't in totally over their heads and didn't have to sell in those bad periods, now have a home that started to increase again after the "stall". It's a given fact that real estate my temporarily slide, but it never fails to regain once again.

"Clearly, with shrinking family size the increase in size of homes is pure self-indulgence..."

I don't think you can accurately make a sweeping generalization like that, binthair. Take us, for example...Yes, we are a family of four (plus two dogs). Yes, we have more space than we need in our house for our daily activities. But, DH and I are very close with our families, many of whom can't afford to drive the several hundred miles out here AND house their families in a hotel. Because of our large house, we were able to feed 25 people here all of Thanksgiving week, 16 of them sleeping comfortably here at our house. If we'd had a smaller home, most of these cherished family members wouldn't have come because they couldn't have afforded the hotel costs, or wouldn't have felt comfortable "imposing." This summer alone, we've had six groups of family and friends come to visit, staying in our home. Again, I doubt all of them would have come if we hadn't the space to house them comfortably. Is making it easier for us to spend quality time with our loved ones self-indulgent?

Claro, but property taxes, utilities and full time help (housekeeper, cook and gardener)are a tiny fraction of what they were in Dallas, and there is essentially no insurance except the mandatory auto liability. I'm saving almost $20K a year on household expenses and I have not had any mortgage since 1991.
Also, since USAA provides no ins here, I get my 35+ yr SSA returned tax free -that's a nice $11K Christmas gift.
M

our house is a 3yr-old 3bd/2ba 1500sqft plantation-style home, with a 1bd/1ba 700sqft guest house for friends and family. this will be our retirement home.

however, i certainly wouldn't mind mike's situation either. happy retirement m

Binthair, if you want anyone to take your point of view seriously, stop overgeneralizing.

I was so happy to buy a house with acreage, horse barn, two paddocks, streams on each side with no visable neighbors until we had to maintain it all. That was in unincorporated Redmond, Wa. Dusting ans maintaing a 4100 sqft moneypit got old very quickly! happily I'm in a Condo in Jupiter, Fla. Slam the door and I'm off!
I agree with mclaurie about the house size but I think I'd add a bedroom. If you have to "move on" it will be more saleable.

Jersey:
"I'd like a three bedroom open floorplan on water in a temperate climate with low taxes, please. No more then 2500 sf and near a town with great food, museums, an airport, and privacy."
The first thing that popped into my head is Minneapolis/St. Paul and some of its tonier suburbs--but you'd have to drop the "temperate climate" requirement, LOL! But some of the lakefront property there is stunning, and the Twin Cities fit all your other requirements...

I understand what you're saying Patrick and it certainly worked for my brother and SIL in Orinda in the East Bay area of San Francisco. Their 130,000 house is about 700,000.00 right now. But when some people are getting in by the skin of their teeth, if anything goes wrong in their life, and the assumptions they were making when they bought the house don't pan out, there is trouble brewing, and when their house payment increases by 1,000 per month or more, and the raise didn't come, or the wife can't work for some reason, and many other factors come into play..some of these people are going to be in a bad place. Also, your equity in your house is useless unless you take it out.

I've never given much thought to re-sale of my home - we live how we like to live. We updated our kitchen (new floor, counters, appliances) but did not do the total kitchen re-hab that seems so popular around here. If I was Nigella or really, really cooked a LOT, then by all means I think it would be a sound investment. But I'm floored by the amount of $$ people spend to re-model their kitchen and then rarely cook. Why bother?

Re: McMansions. I am surprised that people would spend so much money to be so close to their neighbors. The new developments look sterile and uninviting to me - I think they all need a few more decades to actually get some trees, and then they will look more "neighborhoody".

We live in a 35 y.o. home in the suburbs that is a lot bigger than the small Colonial I grew up in, but does not have the same square footage as the McMansions. But we have almost an acre of land. I would NEVER give up this land to live in a larger house right on top of 4 of my neighbors, or facing a busy street, or located along a highway. Of course, not all McMansions are situated like this, but in the Northeast, where vacant land is getting scarcer and scarcer, the brand new, huge homes are in some pretty undesirable locations.

The lay-outs seem odd to me, too. Some have huge two story foyers, but tiny bedrooms. We have large bedrooms and a huge living room, but never have I wished that my foyer was larger!

As someone interested in city planning, I've read a lot of books about what makes a neighborhood or city more liveable (Suburban Nation comes to mind). None of these books speak highly of McMansions or the suburban sprawl that is typical of their type of development.

I believe that "keeping up the with Joneses" has something to do with the McMansion craze. We have become a nation of bigger. Bigger food portions (and subsequently, bigger stomachs), bigger SUVs, etc. I read the most depressing article in Time or People or some such type magazine left in the gym. It described how people are now paying other people to do things like teaching their children to ride a bike! I would be ashamed to admit that I paid someone to do this. But the article actually quoted a woman as saying that she would never have thought of doing this, but when she heard her neighbor paid someone to do this, she then felt compeled to do the same thing! I KNOW not everyone buys a bigger house to keep up with their neighbors, but I do know at least one of my friends was not happy until she moved into a McMansion of her own. (She lives in an area where it is not uncommon to throw your 1 y.o. a birthday party for over 100 people at the country club).

Once again, I digress. I consider that the best sized home for retirement would differ from person to person based on individual preferences. I totally understand why someone with a large family would want a larger home, and I can understand the desire to downsize into a more manangeable home as well. We are a bit far off from traditional retirement age, and we've put more thought into WHERE our retirement home will be. We've never really thought about how large it would be.

I'm with LoveItaly on this - quality over quantity - and I'd certainly echo the concerns about running costs. By world standards America has low energy costs but is, as I understand, a nett energy importer, so I'd be assuming that this situation won't necessarily continue.

The McMansion blight is spreading across Australia too, and one thing I've noticed (their pretentious aesthetics aside) is the stupid impracticality of most designs from an environmental viewpoint.

If none of these comments apply to American designs, please feel free to ignore them.

What strikes me is the amount of wasted space in the form of high ceilings and grandiose entrance lobbies that have little practical use but cost a lot to heat and cool. In the Southwest that would surely be as big a problem as here (maybe more, as our winters tend to be warmer).

Compounding the problem is that cramming these monsters into ordinary suburban blocks has led to the virtual disappearance of eaves. And large glass areas require expensive heavy drapes and maybe double glazing for insulation (a matter that too little attention is paid to anyway).

As many of their owners have over-extended themselves in their quest to keep up with the Joneses, the overall construction quality can be downright shoddy, leading to expensive problems down the track.

We've lived in the same ~2000 sq ft house for 21 years, and although I could do with slightly larger bedrooms it's pretty right and should be OK for our retirement. We could downsize, but with four kids we'll always need a couple of guest bedrooms, not to mention the small 4th-bedroom study where I waste so much otherwise productive time.

Interesting comments, interesting thread. And yes, crefloors, there is speculation by some financial experts that there will possibly be a financial problem for some homeowners in the SF Bay Area for all the reasons you listed. And Karen, I was interested in your post also. Regarding kitchens, a lot of us were talking at the beauty salon about a month ago. Kitchens keep getting bigger and bigger and tons of money is poured into them when homeowners remodel but at the same time less and less people cook due to jobs, long commutes etc. Guess the kitchen has become the "showplace" in our area. I don't cook like I use to but evidently I cook a lot more then the average family does.

And even in McMansions the bedrooms other then the Mastersuit are so small. And at least here in our area, what ever happened to a decent size linen closet?

Anyway, hopefully everyone will have the house that works for them. That is what makes a home, along with love, respect and care for the various family members.

E-If I could just guarantee that I could go to a warm place for January, February, and March my job of finding the perfect home would be easy. At least looking for the perfect place is fun (so far). I guess I'm looking for Camelot. LOL

Sorry if I somehow unsettled a few foundations, but I stand by what I said. I speak from experience and I live in a place where self-indulgence is a way of life. Generalizing maybe, overgeneralizing no; get over it.

I agree with Binthair. Certainly there are differing motivations, but it is true that as the American family gets smaller, houses get bigger. It is an interesting trend and I think that for the most part, it is pride and the American obsession with bigger is better that drives it.
For an interesting discussion, see:
http://www.latimes.com/features/prin...e-printedition

One hypothesis in this story is that the lack of grand public spaces in the US drives the desire for grand private spaces. Hmmm, I'm not sure I buy that, but interesting.

Hello Suki, the lack of grand public spaces etc. There may be a lot of truth in that thinking. In Italy the piazzas etc. are used as a public living space, families, people of all ages, congregate and and enjoy them. At least in my area there is nowhere to do that. Families in Italy do have smaller spaces for their residences.
Interesting concept.

Jocelyn P: Of course wanting to facilitate hosting family and friends is very generous, just like paying for them to stay in a hotel if you had a smaller house would be very generous. It is simply a matter of choice. I once did a cost analysis of just how much our guest room actually cost for the once every two years it is used (or do you think it is overgeneralizing to say Houston is not a popular vacation destination?) and I figured I would be ahead paying for hotel suites for our guests. On the other hand, my parents, who downsized from the NE to 1750 sq ft.in a popular area of Florida have gotten to where they feel abused by all the visitors. Most simply announce they are coming with no invitation, sometimes for several weeks. Trust me that given hotel prices in season, they are very generous indeed. We usually stay in a hotel given we are a family of 4 and honestly we enjoy the "breathing room"; I think it is wonderful if your situation works and everybody gets along.

Hi Binthair, I understand what you are saying as when we sold our very large house and built our last house which only had one guest bedroom/bath my husband did a cost anyalsis and determined that we, financially, would be so far ahead if we paid for hotel rooms when excess guest arrived versus keeping the large house that could accomadate several guest.

Now that I am on my own I can accomadate one guest or one couple but other then that guests will have to get a hotel room. And if I feel that they cannot afford it (which so far as not been the case) I am money ahead treating them to a hotel room.

I went through decades of hosting and cooking for tons of people, family and friends. Now I am at a stage that I don't want to. And I find it easier to treat guest to dinner in a restaurant. Breakfast, brunch or lunch is something I enjoy doing.

But we all go through different stages in our life. And that is good.

Hopefully we are all happy with our situations.

Hi Neil, I didn't see your post when I last posted. Yes, I absolutely agree with you. In fact my daughter & SIL house has the two story living room ceiling. It is terrible. Very dramatic but in winter it is cold as heat rises. And in summer it it terrible has heat rises. So they are cold in the living room in winter and too warm in the upstair bedrooms in summer. Something my DH refused to have in a house was real high ceilings for that very reason. But it seems that all houses built in our region seem to have them. As we are being advised to be energy efficient! It doesn't make sense to me. Take good care. And BTW, your house sounds perfect.

This is something that I have given much thought to... and I also agree it is certainly a matter of personal taste.
My dream retirement house would be a 3 bedroom, 3 full baths with huge walk in closets, 2 car + shop garage, a huge living room, huge kitchen/dining area and an office. 3500 sf would be great.
I really just want large, well designed rooms with loads of storage, wood floors and large front proch and a cement/brick patio out back.
I am so sick of wasted space, all the unused formal dining rooms and formal living rooms. And boy would I have ideas for the perfect bathroom!
To me it is more about design...
My father built his retirement house right on a lake here in Texas. It is not huge, maybe 2300 sf but it is so well designed... just a wonderful place with a huge beautiful back porch and attached dock that overlooks the lake.

See Joe, RnR, you make it so difficult for those of us who know you, when we read here about your &quot;annual trips to Paris&quot;, or your &quot;many years of game drives in South Africa&quot; and how you &quot;sold that little house in TI&quot; for better digs in the west, yet we <i>know</i> otherwise. You might check in with Pinellas County by the way and let them know you sold it! They'll be surprised to hear. ;)

Once again there are many warm weather and/or coastal people posting here who really do not have a practical understanding of living in varied and cold climates. They just think they do.

And several also don't realize that many, many people with large houses do have large families and do share their living spaces with &quot;related&quot; living relatives and for month long and year long venues helping them with education or building of their own and/or also housing elderly parents with separate entrances/exits.

Most here are operating with a mindset of singular nuclear family
&quot;responsibility&quot; and &quot;choices&quot; and don't think of themselves as a family unit beyond the number of about 4. Many comments here consider individual or couple wants only. MANY, many people and cultures do not. My Mexican neighbors do not. My Arab neighbors do not. My Greek neighbors do not. My Black neighbors do not. All my Asian and Southeast Asian neighbors particularly do not.

The average home space in my town is about 4200 square feet. And our homes are all brick, quality, and very efficiently heated with natural gas.
They all have full basements with concrete floors which are used as playrooms in winter beyond other things.

My foyer is used as a greeting and leaving and message center for all my grandchildren and sometimes it is so filled with things despite its size that you can barely walk. I have between 25 to 45 people for days on end all through the multiple winter holidays. It's what makes us still very close and a family. Our neighbors have large spaces for group activities in winter as well. And many of us have 3 season rooms open to the yards also, that we use extensively and which put us into nature more than would be possible without them.

I was raised with a one bedroom 1200 sq situation and it was not optimal for mental or physical health of 7 people, especially not when anyone was sick. I also think that 2 story houses and various condo / apartment plans with lots of stairs are impractical as people age regardless of where they live.

Space is something that I truly appreciate. I have a room that I use just to meditate and read in. And I can run a aerobics group in my family room and I do. And I can keep a closet that is just for grandchildrens' treasures and that they know they can come to any time they need a read or a project to start. My house isn't just about me. It's a totally different street that more Americans than you realize are walking down too. &quot;You&quot; don't know what is going on in the McMansion. And who IS cooking each and every day, three times or MORE. We also have much stronger neighborhood connects, church connects, and community connects here that other places with more mobile and fleeting populations just don't. That also makes an immense difference; the amount of ROOTS which people tend to put INTO the area is a real factor in what their optimal house will be like.

Amen, JJ5!

I think that the warm-climate people with smaller homes have a different perspective because we consider the outdoors an integral part of our living space. Our back yard is a very pleasant part of the house-- just about year-round. Even when it's a bit nippy we're out there grilling dinner or just enjoying a drink on a sunny afternoon.

For the record: Currently 1,400 sq ft house with maybe 700 sq ft back yard, 3 bedrooms 1 1/2 bath-- starting renos to add roughly 150 sq ft to house footprint and to convert 1/2 bath to 3/4. And the size is just about right.

BTW~I really do like the &quot;Small House&quot; books. A home for retirement would probably be around 1000-1200 sq feet with no stairs and lots of good usable kitchen space(I do cook often and we entertain frequently).I'd love a second bathroom. I'd like it close to great restaurants, good theatre and a major medical center. Walking trails and or nature preserves would be important as well. The close proximity of good friends and family is a huge consideration.

We love Vancouver,BC and are travelling to the Berkshires and the Hudson River Valley this Fall for a look-see. Portland,Oregon also has a great deal of appeal.

My current home size is a one bedroom at about 600 sq. feet. A bit smaller than I would like, but it is inexpensive and comfortable for one person who doesn't have a lot of stuff. I would probably be more comfortable (living alone) in an 800 sq. foot place (I had an apartment that size once, it was perfect). I had one apartment though that was a bit over 1000 sq. feet, and it was too big, I felt like I lived in the corner of it because I've always been used to smaller spaces (by US standards). Incidentally, I grew up in a family of 6 in a 1750 sq. foot home with two full bathrooms and one 1/2 bathroom and never really felt cramped, but my mom really knew how to organize space. I've actually never been inside one of these newer &quot;mcmansions&quot;, but I've seen a few of them from the street, and I can't say I'd feel comfortable or enjoy the task of attempting to keep a place like that up, they look overwhelming, and I can't imagine what it would cost to fill it up. I had a couple of friends who got married and sank all of their money into getting a mortgage in a house in the suburbs not taking into consideration that they had lived the past 4 years of their lives in an 800 sq. foot one bedroom apartment and suddenly had a big suburban house with no money to buy furniture. When I went out there for a visit, and we had a good laugh at their huge empty living room with a small love-seat and a small television on a television cart over on the corner and the tiny two-person kitchen table in their formal dining room.

Great point rjw. My home is small, maybe 1500 square feet of indoor living space while my deck is about 700 square feet of outdoor living space.

We have tables, umbrellas, bar tables and stools, andirondack chairs, hamocks, outdoor sofas, tiki torches, TV, and wetbar outside. We use this 12 months out of the year.

If I could just figure out how to rig a fireplace outside I'd probably move out there. My home is elevated on pilings so one of those pits is out of the question.

I can see it now, &quot;uh yes Mr. Insurance adjuster, a meteor just hit my deck and crashed through&quot;.