Business for a young woman in Germany during January
Dec 18th, 2012, 08:59 PM
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Business for a young woman in Germany during January
I will be in southwest Germany for business in late January. I work for a medical device company and will be meeting with doctors, hospital staff, and patients. I am at a loss for what to wear... It will be quite cold of course but I want to look professional. The other factor is I will do some vacationing around after the work is over and really need to pack lightly. Any suggestions what to pack that can be multifunctional and warm? Are black jeans, nice leather boots, with a sharp blazer too casual to wear?
Dec 18th, 2012, 09:54 PM
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I am sure that would be OK, just my opinion. Even warmer and more business-like would be a pantsuit made of a thick fabric (wool), but I can see it might take up room when you are trying to get clothes to do double service.
At that time of year you will also need a winter coat over your outfit, and try to pick shoes with thick soles so the cold doesn't come up through the soles of your feet. I would also come prepared with some proper snow boots / shoes that you can put on if push comes to shove - nothing's worse than cold feet, and no-one will hold it against you for protecting yourself against the cold, they'll be doing it too. Here is a website with some ideas about what women might wear for business:
http://www.heine.de/Businessmode/Spe...545442/HeineDe
(not necessarily my choice of wardrobe but it will give you some ideas).
Lavandula
At that time of year you will also need a winter coat over your outfit, and try to pick shoes with thick soles so the cold doesn't come up through the soles of your feet. I would also come prepared with some proper snow boots / shoes that you can put on if push comes to shove - nothing's worse than cold feet, and no-one will hold it against you for protecting yourself against the cold, they'll be doing it too. Here is a website with some ideas about what women might wear for business:
http://www.heine.de/Businessmode/Spe...545442/HeineDe
(not necessarily my choice of wardrobe but it will give you some ideas).
Lavandula
Dec 18th, 2012, 10:36 PM
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I just came back from Germany sharing many ICE trains with business people heading to their next meetings. They were wearing mostly dark tones suits around Munich and Frankfurt. One thing that surprised me was the greater temperature difference between indoor and outdoors and I was used to. The indoors, whether trains, theaters, or restaurants, seemed to heated to much higher temp than at home, so I made sure I did not wear something I could not easily take off when coming in from freezing outdoors. For me, jeans and packing light are not compatible due to the loft, at least for what I wear. Jeans take up about 3 times more volume than my slacks and hence when I took a pair of jeans this time, that was what I always wore between hotels to eliminate a need to pack my jeans.
Dec 18th, 2012, 11:37 PM
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Hi Alli66,
I'm 57 years old and female and live in Garmisch-Partenkirchen just south of München. I wouldn't wear jeans, even black and expensive ones, for your business events/meetings. Yes, I think they are too casual for business among doctors and nurses and other professionals (I'm assuming that the decision makers that you'll meet will be around my age). Most professionals wear fabric pants, and wool would be appropriate for the wintertime. They won't show dirt, they look good for weeks, and you can mix and match them with a lot of other things, so you won't need to pack a lot of them! Mix up your outfits with scarves --
If you must bring the jeans, I would wear them on the plane and then wear them as your transfer between cities, as greg notes above.
Have fun as you plan!
s
I'm 57 years old and female and live in Garmisch-Partenkirchen just south of München. I wouldn't wear jeans, even black and expensive ones, for your business events/meetings. Yes, I think they are too casual for business among doctors and nurses and other professionals (I'm assuming that the decision makers that you'll meet will be around my age). Most professionals wear fabric pants, and wool would be appropriate for the wintertime. They won't show dirt, they look good for weeks, and you can mix and match them with a lot of other things, so you won't need to pack a lot of them! Mix up your outfits with scarves --
If you must bring the jeans, I would wear them on the plane and then wear them as your transfer between cities, as greg notes above.
Have fun as you plan!
s
Dec 19th, 2012, 01:55 AM
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"Nice" leather boots can be a problem as not always you deal with pristine white snow in winter time. The more usual sight within cities will be (if there had been snow) salted and gritted sidewalks with dirty slush to tackle. So your footwear should be more on the practicle side and not some expensive leather that will be ruined easily.
If you need any footwear while in Germany you will find outlets of Deichmann or Reno chain stores in any downtown shopping street. Their stuff is usually cheap, and if you just need it as an emergency replacement, cheap enough to throw away after your trip.
Doctors wear a total random selection of outfits under their official/uniform jacket, which can be anything from shirt & tie and suit pants to t-shirt and blue jeans. As they spend most of their time INdoors, they hardly wear anything warm.
Age and rank will be (sometimes) contributing factors whether they dress more casual or more formal. If your meetings will be with the hospitals' top management tier/ procurement, you can expect more suit & tie.
If your meetings take you to the actual practising staff it will probably be more casual.
Though these days you cannot necessarily relate senior management positions in hospitals to age. Most hospitals are privately-owned businesses or PPPs nowadays, often owned by health industry corporations so the days when the white-haired highest-ranking old professor would run the show are long gone (mostly).
I doubt that the nurses will care about what you wear, though less can be sometimes more (not by quantity, but fashion-wise, cf. next para)
A little excursion into the German psyche: Freiburg im Breisgau is not Paris or Milan or New York City.
While casual may have its limits in a business relationship, it can be seen easily as "too much" to waltz into your client's offices in a Sex and the City style outfit, flashing massive make-up with your Manolo Blahnik shoes. If you were a male, also a 3-piece $2,000 bespoke suit from London's Savile Row would not always give you the best appearance (unless you meet investment bankers or McKinsey type consultants).
In Germany, it is a bit safer to err on the casual/ practical/ down to earth side than to appear as a top model on the loose. Especially when the weather makes any top model outfit look extremely ridiculous. Unless you are working as a top model.
So your initial approach to dress multifunctional and warm has been correct. Though when you will spend a lot of time indoors, your coat should be warm but not so much what you wear under it.
Not that you suggested it, but the only footwear that would be seen as seriously inappropriate for meeting clients or potential customers here should be sneakers, unless of a somewhat fashionable/ non-athletic style.
If you need any footwear while in Germany you will find outlets of Deichmann or Reno chain stores in any downtown shopping street. Their stuff is usually cheap, and if you just need it as an emergency replacement, cheap enough to throw away after your trip.
Doctors wear a total random selection of outfits under their official/uniform jacket, which can be anything from shirt & tie and suit pants to t-shirt and blue jeans. As they spend most of their time INdoors, they hardly wear anything warm.
Age and rank will be (sometimes) contributing factors whether they dress more casual or more formal. If your meetings will be with the hospitals' top management tier/ procurement, you can expect more suit & tie.
If your meetings take you to the actual practising staff it will probably be more casual.
Though these days you cannot necessarily relate senior management positions in hospitals to age. Most hospitals are privately-owned businesses or PPPs nowadays, often owned by health industry corporations so the days when the white-haired highest-ranking old professor would run the show are long gone (mostly).
I doubt that the nurses will care about what you wear, though less can be sometimes more (not by quantity, but fashion-wise, cf. next para)
A little excursion into the German psyche: Freiburg im Breisgau is not Paris or Milan or New York City.
While casual may have its limits in a business relationship, it can be seen easily as "too much" to waltz into your client's offices in a Sex and the City style outfit, flashing massive make-up with your Manolo Blahnik shoes. If you were a male, also a 3-piece $2,000 bespoke suit from London's Savile Row would not always give you the best appearance (unless you meet investment bankers or McKinsey type consultants).
In Germany, it is a bit safer to err on the casual/ practical/ down to earth side than to appear as a top model on the loose. Especially when the weather makes any top model outfit look extremely ridiculous. Unless you are working as a top model.
So your initial approach to dress multifunctional and warm has been correct. Though when you will spend a lot of time indoors, your coat should be warm but not so much what you wear under it.
Not that you suggested it, but the only footwear that would be seen as seriously inappropriate for meeting clients or potential customers here should be sneakers, unless of a somewhat fashionable/ non-athletic style.
Dec 19th, 2012, 02:26 AM
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Hi again,
wow, I totally disagree with Cowboy that it's better to err on the casual side. In my experience, a professional appearance will pay off much better.
Of course, I never recommended you come off as a sex in the city clone or parade designer outfits to your clients. Geeez, who would do such a thing -- outside of Hollywood? That's a ludicrious idea. But wearing a nice pair of wool pants (I used to get mine from Steinmarts or Burlington) and the blazer your mention would be right. Folks wearing jeans don't really notice if you're wearing wool -- but folks wearing wool might well notice if you're in jeans.
s
wow, I totally disagree with Cowboy that it's better to err on the casual side. In my experience, a professional appearance will pay off much better.
Of course, I never recommended you come off as a sex in the city clone or parade designer outfits to your clients. Geeez, who would do such a thing -- outside of Hollywood? That's a ludicrious idea. But wearing a nice pair of wool pants (I used to get mine from Steinmarts or Burlington) and the blazer your mention would be right. Folks wearing jeans don't really notice if you're wearing wool -- but folks wearing wool might well notice if you're in jeans.
s
Dec 19th, 2012, 03:10 AM
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I have had clients in Europe (Switz, Germany and the UK - and the latter is less formal, but not as informal as the US) and generally business people dress with more formality than they do in the US. Jeans of any sort are not really appropriate for business meetings. (Nor are they appropriate in the US - at least where I work. They can be worn for daily office work - but not if the client is coming to the office or you are going to visit them - it requires business casual, not backyard casual.)
While skirt suits are more common than they are in the US pants suits/outfits are also appropriate as long as they look businesslike. I would look at separates that allow you to mix and match for different looks (mixing and matching 2 or 3 jackets and 2 or 3 pants in tones that work together). Ankle boots and tights are more practical than dress shoes- but they should not be snow boots unless you are caught in a blizzard.
You may find it more practical to check a smallish bag - since it's likely that your carry-on will be filled with your computer, documents or files, toiletries and a single change of clothes. Do remember that the size of a carry-on in Europe is smaller than in the US (often 19" including wheels). I have many times seen people getting onto flights in europe have to gate check carry-ons that would be allowed in the US just because of those extra 2 or 3".
I have found I can do a short trip (no more than 3 nights) with a carry-on and personal item (combined computer bag and purse) but for longer than that - or a trip combining work and vacation - esp in winter I always end up checking a bag.
While skirt suits are more common than they are in the US pants suits/outfits are also appropriate as long as they look businesslike. I would look at separates that allow you to mix and match for different looks (mixing and matching 2 or 3 jackets and 2 or 3 pants in tones that work together). Ankle boots and tights are more practical than dress shoes- but they should not be snow boots unless you are caught in a blizzard.
You may find it more practical to check a smallish bag - since it's likely that your carry-on will be filled with your computer, documents or files, toiletries and a single change of clothes. Do remember that the size of a carry-on in Europe is smaller than in the US (often 19" including wheels). I have many times seen people getting onto flights in europe have to gate check carry-ons that would be allowed in the US just because of those extra 2 or 3".
I have found I can do a short trip (no more than 3 nights) with a carry-on and personal item (combined computer bag and purse) but for longer than that - or a trip combining work and vacation - esp in winter I always end up checking a bag.
Dec 19th, 2012, 04:44 AM
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I have been / am working within corporations of different sizes from 500 to now 3K employees in Germany continously for the last 15 years. So I may assume a bit more expertise than PPs.
Dress codes vary from strict to casual, generalization in the sense that jeans are not worn in business meetings are pure nonsense. In certain fields jeans would be unusual to inappropriate while in other industries one would hardly notice.
As PPs have assumed that by "casual" I was talking about your old jeans you use for gardening mixed with the sweater your dog uses as a pillow, I should have been more precise in labelling it as "smart casual", agreed.
Black jeans are by no means outlawed from being mixed into a smart casual outfit as OP suggested. Especially since OP is a young person.
What you find less often here than in the US are older business people ("old" = 50+) dressing smart casual only and not suit & tie.
Like it or hate it:
The NO JEANS IN EUROPE dogma is a seriously blown out of proportion misconception, repeated ad nausaeum in these fora but far from any reality on this continent. I wear jeans 99% of all days, often also - hold your breath - blue 501s. When smart casual is required, I mix 'em with a sports coat and nicer shoes. Period.
It's as much nonsense in its generalization as the fairy tale of French (or was it Italians?) wearing only black.
As my experience of business people in the US is more or less as anecdotal as PPs experiences with business people in Germany (or limited to certain industries), my (maybe blurred) impression of business women's outfits in the (major) US cities is that those in the US sometimes dress extra sharp, which you may also find in Germany but which is by no means regarded as the norm.
Dress codes vary from strict to casual, generalization in the sense that jeans are not worn in business meetings are pure nonsense. In certain fields jeans would be unusual to inappropriate while in other industries one would hardly notice.
As PPs have assumed that by "casual" I was talking about your old jeans you use for gardening mixed with the sweater your dog uses as a pillow, I should have been more precise in labelling it as "smart casual", agreed.
Black jeans are by no means outlawed from being mixed into a smart casual outfit as OP suggested. Especially since OP is a young person.
What you find less often here than in the US are older business people ("old" = 50+) dressing smart casual only and not suit & tie.
Like it or hate it:
The NO JEANS IN EUROPE dogma is a seriously blown out of proportion misconception, repeated ad nausaeum in these fora but far from any reality on this continent. I wear jeans 99% of all days, often also - hold your breath - blue 501s. When smart casual is required, I mix 'em with a sports coat and nicer shoes. Period.
It's as much nonsense in its generalization as the fairy tale of French (or was it Italians?) wearing only black.
As my experience of business people in the US is more or less as anecdotal as PPs experiences with business people in Germany (or limited to certain industries), my (maybe blurred) impression of business women's outfits in the (major) US cities is that those in the US sometimes dress extra sharp, which you may also find in Germany but which is by no means regarded as the norm.
Dec 19th, 2012, 05:01 AM
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Really, unless you know the customers and know they don't mind you comming in casual (and I'll include any kind of jeans), don't. They may or may not expect it and you simply don't seem to know which one it is. So I disagree very much, that you should err on the low end. Would you be the first employee of your company travelling to Germany? Maybe you can ask colleagues for their experience. While there is some truth in cowboys post, I think that it is a bit of a risky advice. Proper dresscode woll not get you ridicule in the doctors world for sure. You might get through with a more casual approach, but are you really willing to make that bet for your company?
Dec 19th, 2012, 05:24 AM
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You can never go wrong with a dark wool trouser suit for business meetings. Jeans can, on the other hand, 'sometimes' be a mistake. If you don't know the people you will be meeting or their work-dress standards, I would err on the cautious side and wear a suit.
Kate, who works in London and has done a lot of work with German companies over the years.
Kate, who works in London and has done a lot of work with German companies over the years.
Dec 19th, 2012, 07:02 AM
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Obviously, no one will ridicule a business woman wearing wool slacks or whatever non-jeans garments. Perfectly fine.
I was just amazed that many people's advice here was so far off track of what I see my female co-workers wear everyday in meetings on the exec and non-exec level in the company/ies I work for and deal with.
In a season with probably the worst weather imaginable, from 3ft of snow to slush to mild, pouring rain possible, it does not hurt to inject a bit of common sense into the choice of wardrobe.
Which shall NOT equate "moon boots" and baggy pants and two layers of torn sweaters - which seems to be the obvious alternative to formal wear for some here.
But OP never even suggested such.
I was just amazed that many people's advice here was so far off track of what I see my female co-workers wear everyday in meetings on the exec and non-exec level in the company/ies I work for and deal with.
In a season with probably the worst weather imaginable, from 3ft of snow to slush to mild, pouring rain possible, it does not hurt to inject a bit of common sense into the choice of wardrobe.
Which shall NOT equate "moon boots" and baggy pants and two layers of torn sweaters - which seems to be the obvious alternative to formal wear for some here.
But OP never even suggested such.
Dec 19th, 2012, 07:25 AM
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It is true that the type of business will make a difference. My clients are large pharma companies - and they are distinctly of the more formal approach - many of the guys wear actual business suits and ties - especially in Switzerland (versus business casual of blazers or jackets with unmatched trousers and no ties).
However, I can see that there are probably other types of businesses that are much less formal.
What is true is that european business people tend to have fewer and better quality clothes than you often see in the US. Esp for people on the way up dressing well is expected.
Not sure what this specific job is - but even in the US Pharma sales reps are definitely on the formal end of things. Doesn't have to be full suits but jeans would be an absolute no-no - esp if you are selling a device or equipment that is a big ticket item.
However, I can see that there are probably other types of businesses that are much less formal.
What is true is that european business people tend to have fewer and better quality clothes than you often see in the US. Esp for people on the way up dressing well is expected.
Not sure what this specific job is - but even in the US Pharma sales reps are definitely on the formal end of things. Doesn't have to be full suits but jeans would be an absolute no-no - esp if you are selling a device or equipment that is a big ticket item.
Dec 21st, 2012, 10:27 PM
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Thanks everyone for the advice. To be honest the driving force behind my question is that I am on one hand a woman who wants to look nice and stylish but also not trying to purchase an entirely new wardrobe for this trip. I live in California. I usually dress quite professionally for work here but am also better dressed than most other people around in hospitals. I am a big believer in dressing professionally. I own a nice wool coat so that is no problem. I am expecting to buy warm, lined, thick soled boots that are hopefully weather proof. If your feet are miserable then you are miserable. That said, all of my dress pants are for CA weather and trouser cut. I can wear undergarments under the pants but then how do I keep them from getting wet and dirty in the winter streets?? I know that is quite specific but I am really hoping to pack light and not spend tons on new clothes I will rarely need again. Thaks for all of your advice!!
Dec 21st, 2012, 10:48 PM
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>how do I keep them from getting wet and dirty in the winter streets??
Right, so that's a different question entirely
. Ever been to New York City in winter? If there is snow, there will be piles of snow at the side of the road, ecxept where people are expexted to cross the road. No Problem....
If it snows, use an umbrella. Decent quality shoes are always good. Almost everthing in Germany is less expensive than in North America nowadays, except for clothes and esp. shoes! So if you can get something suitable at home, that's the way to go. Daytime temps can be between -20C and +10C, so be prepared for both. Easy..
Right, so that's a different question entirely
. Ever been to New York City in winter? If there is snow, there will be piles of snow at the side of the road, ecxept where people are expexted to cross the road. No Problem.... If it snows, use an umbrella. Decent quality shoes are always good. Almost everthing in Germany is less expensive than in North America nowadays, except for clothes and esp. shoes! So if you can get something suitable at home, that's the way to go. Daytime temps can be between -20C and +10C, so be prepared for both. Easy..
Dec 22nd, 2012, 02:21 PM
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I am an engineer, which is a fairly casual field. Lots of people wear jeans towork, and not even nice jeans. I also visit a lot of clients as a consultant. Even though my clients dress casually, I always wear slacks instead of jeans. I think that dressing slightly more formally is better than less formally for business meetings.
For sightseeing and non-business stuff, I have jeans. To minimize packing, i make sure my tops go well with both slacks and jeans. And I take scarves to change things up a bit.
For sightseeing and non-business stuff, I have jeans. To minimize packing, i make sure my tops go well with both slacks and jeans. And I take scarves to change things up a bit.
