Lockdown easing in the Netherlands

Old May 6th, 2020, 07:51 AM
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Lockdown easing in the Netherlands

From next Monday May 11th primary school kids go back to school, with smaller classes.
Hairdresser and manicures and the like can open (Hooray!).
Non contact sports can also resume.

June 1st secondary schools reopen and cafes and restaurants can open their teraces. Cinemas, theatres and restaurants can reopen, reservation only and no more than 30 clients keepin social distancing.

July 1st. Campsites, holiday parks can reopen including shared toilet blocks.
Restaurants etc can open up to 100 people, again if they have the room and can distance the guests, and again reservation only.

Face masks will be required in all pulic transport from June 1st, when the normal timetables restart.

if the numbers start to rise again it can all be put on hold or lockdown replaced.
Shops were always open here under the rules.
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Old May 6th, 2020, 11:08 AM
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Hooray! Let's hope for the best!
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Old May 7th, 2020, 05:12 AM
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Hetismij, I think the Dutch policy is much more sensible than what they are doing in Belgium. And the numbers of cases and casualties are not lower in Belgium, on the contrary.
The economic fallout is less severe in the Netherlands too, with shops being allowed open.

It's Mother's day this Sunday. On Monday, the flower shops are allowed to open again. Why not Saturday or Sunday, so people can buy flowers? They asked, and the answer from the government was no. In the meantime supermarkets and DYI stores are free to sell flowers.




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Old May 7th, 2020, 05:56 AM
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That is just plain daft Tulips! In the UK though it is the same. garden centres and florists are closed, but the DIY stores and supermarkets can sell plants and flowers. So unfair.

I have a hair appointment for three weeks from now. My hairdresser works alone and is only doing half the appointments she normally would, and giving priority to those needing their roots/grey hair covered. I only need a quick trim, but I am so looking forward to it!
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Old May 7th, 2020, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by hetismij2
That is just plain daft Tulips! In the UK though it is the same. garden centres and florists are closed, but the DIY stores and supermarkets can sell plants and flowers. So unfair.

I have a hair appointment for three weeks from now. My hairdresser works alone and is only doing half the appointments she normally would, and giving priority to those needing their roots/grey hair covered. I only need a quick trim, but I am so looking forward to it!
That's my problem too! My hairdresser is booked solid til July. I need to find a new one now.
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Old May 7th, 2020, 07:11 AM
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I am completely in agreement with most of the measures, but some are indeed daft. I can go and play golf now with 2 others, keeping distance, but that is easy with golf. Clubhouse is closed, so no socializing. But I can only play golf with these exact same friends every time. Not others. The distance you keep on a golf course is much more than that in a supermarket, and you are outside.
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Old May 8th, 2020, 02:33 AM
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Country by country, region by region, village by village, the restrictions are simply arbitrary, it seems to me. Which fits with human nature. There is no way any of us can get our brains around a problem as huge as this one, so we go flitting about trying to seem smart in finding solutions willy-nilly. And some solutions are smart and some not so smart, but we're human and have to keep trying.

I just sit on my hillside and dig in the dirt and try to help plantlife regenerate. Small stuff, but I think every tiny move toward regeneration helps. It helps that I love messing around with dirt and plants.

My hair is a complete disaster at this point, but I look at videos of women who live in the Andes and in wild outposts of Afghani mountains, and they manage their hair, so I can too. Maybe.
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Old May 8th, 2020, 05:43 AM
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Agree StCirq. They try things out, and will see what happens with the numbers. Hopefully the authorities are learning and gaining insights every day.
I doesn't help that Belgium does not have real government - minority government temporarily supported by the other parties. The Flemish and Walloons can still not agree on a permanent government, even now.
The poor woman who got stuck with the top job when her boss abandoned ship for a well-paid European job, is doing her best.

At least the weather has been mostly glorious, we have a garden, my family is healthy, there is plenty of food and wine.
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Old May 8th, 2020, 06:49 AM
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Well, Belgium has always been a kind of odd-man-out sort of place, no? Lots to love about that, but maybe not when the world is collapsing. I've always loved Belgium and look forward to going back there when temperatures cool. But you do have the best food in the world.
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Old May 8th, 2020, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by kleeblatt
Hooray! Let's hope for the best!
I don't. Come June, we'll be in the run up to a second wave of infections, maybe earlier.

The -now implicit- Dutch strategy is one of herd immunity. and our death rate is third highest in Europe.

The downward trend in ICU admissions seem to have been caused by the fact that increasingly people in their 70s even were not admitted to ICU care and mostly died in hospices, care homes or at home. But weren't counted in statistiscs.
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Old May 8th, 2020, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Tulips
Hetismij, I think the Dutch policy is much more sensible than what they are doing in Belgium. And the numbers of cases and casualties are not lower in Belgium, on the contrary.
The economic fallout is less severe in the Netherlands too, with shops being allowed open.

It's Mother's day this Sunday. On Monday, the flower shops are allowed to open again. Why not Saturday or Sunday, so people can buy flowers? They asked, and the answer from the government was no. In the meantime supermarkets and DYI stores are free to sell flowers.
The economic fallout is just as bad. The Economist estimates that 52% of corona deaths are not reported in Dutch statistics, while Belgium counts each death.

Dutch Gov was warned by the WHO a number of times not to persevere with its strategy.

Now that we know that COVID 19 is more like TB than flu in its long term effects, it is folly to have a strategy that aims at a "controlled spread" of the virus in young people. Young people who end up with lung and other organ problems, blood clotting issues, probably for the rest of their lives.

Last edited by menachem; May 8th, 2020 at 09:15 PM.
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Old May 8th, 2020, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by kleeblatt
Hooray! Let's hope for the best!
Come June we'll be back doing lockdowns.
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Old May 8th, 2020, 11:46 PM
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Menachem, in Belgium people from care homes also die in their homes, and are often not taken to hospital. Same as in the Netherlands.
The only meaningful statistic to look at is the excess deaths. The number of corona deaths counted in Belgium, match the excess death rate, so it seems they are counting the corona casualties accurately.
But comparing the excess deaths in Belgium and the Netherlands, it doesn't look like the numbers are worse in the Netherlands.

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Old May 9th, 2020, 12:24 AM
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Given that something like 70% of older people do not survive ICU anyway perhaps it is kinder that they die in their homes? For them, for their families and for the ICU staff. Harder on the care home staff though, I admit.

Yes I expect there will be another wave of virus, probably several, it is inevetable really, but how bad and when will depend a lot on people keeping up distancing and hygiene.
You cannot keep a country on hold for a year or eighteen months ot two years or however long it takes to find and apply a vaccine or cure.
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Old May 9th, 2020, 04:19 AM
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Some elderly people do not want to go to hospital. The saddest story I heard was a 91-year old lady, who was infected, but was so depressed by being alone in her room that she 'escaped', walked 5 km to the grave site of her husband, and was found there later that day. She died the next day.

We cannot keep this lockdown going forever. It is taking a toll on children, some of whom have been told here that they can only go back to school in September, as the school cannot comply with all the measures that are asked of them. From tomorrow they can meet with some friends again - 4 maximum, and if the kids meet with 4 friends that means parents cannot meet with anyone outside the family, since a maximum of 4 'outsiders' are allowed. These have to be the same 4 people every time.
For 8 weeks even small children were not allowed to play with others. Will we cause harm to our children in order to protect the elderly? Or do we tell the elderly and vulnerable to isolate?

I don't know. We will have to see what happens now that restrictions are being eased.
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Old May 9th, 2020, 06:45 PM
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[QUOTE=Tulips;17103391]Menachem, in Belgium people from care homes also die in their homes, and are often not taken to hospital. Same as in the Netherlands.
The only meaningful statistic to look at is the excess deaths. The number of corona deaths counted in Belgium, match the excess death rate, so it seems they are counting the corona casualties accurately.
But comparing the excess deaths in Belgium and the Netherlands, it doesn't look like the numbers are worse in the Netherlands.

They are.
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Old May 9th, 2020, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by hetismij2
Given that something like 70% of older people do not survive ICU anyway perhaps it is kinder that they die in their homes? For them, for their families and for the ICU staff. Harder on the care home staff though, I admit.

Yes I expect there will be another wave of virus, probably several, it is inevetable really, but how bad and when will depend a lot on people keeping up distancing and hygiene.
You cannot keep a country on hold for a year or eighteen months ot two years or however long it takes to find and apply a vaccine or cure.
If you look at NICE statistics (ICU admissions and deaths) the largest group in ICUs was and is 60-80, not over 80. And the general consensus is that death has taken on average 10 years off people's lives. Not 2, as was the common understanding among pundits.
Dutch numbers are so bad, because the policy is still based on herd immunity. With Sweden and partly GB we're the odd one out, despite all warnings.

Second waves are not inevitable.
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Old May 10th, 2020, 12:53 AM
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From an article in De Morgen, from the start of the crisis until week 15, there were around 5.000 more deaths than normal for the time of year in Belgium. In the Netherlands for the same period, the excess deaths were around 7.000 (figures from CBS). Belgium has 11 million inhabitants, the Netherlands 17 million.

The latest figures here, up to May 8 report 8581 corona deaths in total in Belgium, half of those died in hospital, half in care homes. The Dutch RIVM reports 5422 corona deaths in total, but they only count those that tested positive. The true number may be 50% or more above that.

It's terrible which ever way you look at it, and we will probably not know the true human cost of this pandemic until much later. I don't think you can conclude at this moment that the Dutch method of dealing with this is much worse than that in Belgium.
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Old May 11th, 2020, 02:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Tulips
From an article in De Morgen, from the start of the crisis until week 15, there were around 5.000 more deaths than normal for the time of year in Belgium. In the Netherlands for the same period, the excess deaths were around 7.000 (figures from CBS). Belgium has 11 million inhabitants, the Netherlands 17 million.

The latest figures here, up to May 8 report 8581 corona deaths in total in Belgium, half of those died in hospital, half in care homes. The Dutch RIVM reports 5422 corona deaths in total, but they only count those that tested positive. The true number may be 50% or more above that.

It's terrible which ever way you look at it, and we will probably not know the true human cost of this pandemic until much later. I don't think you can conclude at this moment that the Dutch method of dealing with this is much worse than that in Belgium.
I think you can and it is. But it is important to understand what the Dutch policy actually is. In Belgium that's containment, in NL, Sweden and GB it's mitigation. For containment, the R0 must be well below 1, for mitigation it is important to time and shape policy so that R0 is slightly above 1, otherwise spread of the virus goes to slowly.
Based on RIVM group think, our government has decided it isn't serious if 1000s of young people contract COVID19, despite worrying reports about emerging long term damage, especially in young people. Precaution and prevention explicitly are not among our government's policy goals.

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