bostonwa

This summer I am hoping to do our first family Europe trip. There's a bit of a complication and I am hoping you all can help me determine if this trip is even feasible... or may be we just forget about the trip and stay put...

Time: End of August

Duration: 9 nights

People: TEN.

Age range: 4 kids (3 to 8) , 2 seniors ( one with dementia but both walk really well) and 4 adults. All of us have done international trips and the kids generally travel well but only 2 of us adults have been to Europe ever.

Destination:
Option 1: Paris only
Option 2: Paris + somewhere in France that has neat villages/castles/ lay back feel. (e,g. Dordogne / Provence)
Option 3: Paris + beach somewhere in France
Option 4: Paris + London
Option 5: Spain
Option 6: Lisbon + beach

I completely understand that the ease of travel will be key and we will have to just take it easy and experience the culture vs visiting museums etc.

One main reason for this trip is that my parents have never been to Europe and with my father's condition, I want to take him there but also to allow my mother to take an interesting trip and see Europe and relax a bit. As a bonus, even though the kids are still young and the trip relatively short, I was hoping it will expose them to a different culture and plant the seeds.

If possible, can you please help me with the following questions:

1. Your gut feel on the feasibility of the trip.
2. If you think it's feasible, any tips and suggestions on which options above (or not listed) will work best with this combo of folks we have
3. i read somewhere that airbnb type of apartment rental is not legal anymore in France, is that true?
4. The idea of staying at a local villa for a few days sound interesting. Any recommendations?
5. Is eating out just going to break the banks all the time with all 10 of us? And how well do the French do with large groups and with kids at restaurants?
6. Must we rent a car/cars?

Any suggestions/comments are welcomed.

Thank you!

kerouac

Option two sounds reasonable, but unless you are driving you can forget the "villages & castles" aspect of leaving Paris. Better to choose an interesting city with easy transportation. 10 people will qualify for a group fare on the SNCF.

Strasbourg, Reims or Bordeaux come to mind as good possibilities. Travel time to Strasbourg is 1h48, Reims is 46 min to the central station, and Bordeaux is 2h05 starting in July when the new TGV line enters into service.

Believe me, you do not want to go to a French beach in August if you value your sanity.

janisj

Totally feasible.

BUT i would 100% pick only one location. Moving 10 people of such different capabilities around will be a total schelpp.

I would personally forget about a country stay because it would mean needing at least two cars, and more likely three.

If you do a city stay there is no need at all for cars. I would pick EITHER London or Paris. Anyone who wants to see some countryside can do a day trip by train.

>>3. i read somewhere that airbnb type of apartment rental is not legal anymore in France, is that true? <<

That Applies to Paris and a couple of other cities -- not to other parts of the country. Holiday rentals are totally legal in London. But finding a propert large enough for 10 is pretty difficult.

>>4. The idea of staying at a local villa for a few days sound interesting. Any recommendations? <<

See my comment re needing multiple cars.

>>5. Is eating out just going to break the banks all the time with all 10 of us? And how well do the French do with large groups and with kids at restaurants? <<

No different than eating back home with that many people. If it breaks the bank there it will break the bank in London or Paris. Children have to eat everywhere But if you all want to eat together you will have to pre-book most meals.

Make it simple. Fly in to and home from one city and stick to one destination. Don't add extra checking in/out, moving. Either Paris or London has more than enough to fill your time (9 nights - if that includes your flights - really only nets 7 days free on the ground)

swandav2000

Hi bostonwa,

Well... I really wouldn't travel with someone with dementia.

My father had dementia for about 2 years before he passed. He became obsessive easily over small things, things that had a sense of permanence or ownership/competence for him. He frequently was worried that he would be late for work, and he had to check the garage several times an hour to make sure his car was safe.

I've heard doctors say that people with dementia need, above all, routine and normalcy. I think that flying overseas and staying in a completely unknown place will totally unhinge the person with dementia.

I'm not saying that you oughn't go. My mom and I put my father in respite care in a nursing home one time so she and I could take a break and not have to bathe him, feed him, and change his diapers for a few days. See if you can use a similar program.

Even if this person is not as bad as my father was when you depart, I'm afraid that the stress and confusion of the trip may well propel him/her into a deeper state of dementia.

Have you talked to the doctor about your plan?

Anyway. Hope you find a good solution!

s

bostonwa

Thank you for the great comments thus far.

@JanisJ, the 9 nights is already minus the travel time so we have a solid 9 nights. I was worried it might be 'too much' in just one city and it will be hard for me to have to plan how to entertain all 10 of us every day... but agree with the travel ease if we stay in only 1 city...

2 cars is the max we can do given the 2 seniors can't drive. But then that will add the topic of car seats to this trip...

@kerouac's suggestions seems to be doable as day trip on trains which will also be in line with JanisJ your thinking too it seems.

bostonwa

Swandav200, thank you for your reply and your concern. It is indeed true that person with dementia needs routine and lots of flexibility. They are at lot like toddlers many times.

My father rarely has emotional outburst but can wonder..A tracking device of some sort probably will be a good investment for us especially for this trip come to think about it.

This might be another case for why we should consider making 1 city the base...

Anyone has any idea on how easy it is to find restrooms in Paris / London?

THANKS!

WoinParis

In addition to what had been said lots of day trips are possible from paris. It may ease the logistics.

Paris hotels are very cheap in august - it is low season. I posted a link to my favorite hotels and several family ones in an ongoing thread (where in paris' or something like that.

I like the idea of checking with a doctor about travelling with someone demented.

Don't know the level but I did travel with a senior who was half senile and it was a pita. Actually the guy spoilt our holidays.

swandav2000

I do have to say again --

I'm not so worried about having your vacation ruined or impacted. I am more worried about causing stress and confusion for someone you love, and even the possibility of the trip causing your father to go deeper into dementia.

Ok, I won't repeat it any more --

I do hope your trip goes off very well -- Bon Voyage!!

s

marvelousmouse

1. Your gut feel on the feasibility of the trip.

So I don't want to put you off it exactly...but you sound stressed and you don't even have a firm idea of where you want to go. I travelled a lot with my grandmother when she was in early stages of dementia. So I can say it's definitely doable but it depends so much on your mindset and whether you think you can handle it.


2. If you think it's feasible, any tips and suggestions on which options above (or not listed) will work best with this combo of folks we have

I'd pick 2 or 4. I found that the best way to do it was to pick a fairly structured activity that could be adjusted and then be really careful about lodging. As the dementia increased, my willingness to stay in less convenient or lower end hotels dropped. Less central hotels made my life harder- we are talking about an 87 year old woman who had found public transit distasteful BEFORE she started forgetting stuff. Less energy expended to do stuff, full service amenities, and a very customer oriented front desk. And she was comfortable too.

The beach thing...you'd think beaches would be the ideal activity but honestly I found them nerve wracking. Couldn't relax myself because grandma could wander off and forget where she was. She'd get bored. But she enjoyed seeing a variety of things in the cities or just sitting outside of a cafe with a glass of champagne and people watching.

5 is probably doable but too general of a category for me to comment on.

London has easy transit and fantastic cabs. Language wouldn't be a challenge.

Paris is something he'd recognize if only from movies and it's very easy to get around although I suspect (depending on capabilities) that you may need to ride buses or take cabs more often than metro.

3. i read somewhere that airbnb type of apartment rental is not legal anymore in France, is that true?

Illegal rental crackdown in Paris specifically. I wouldn't risk airbnb at all though. stay in a full service hotel. It'll remove a lot of stress. For one thing- it gives more "safe space" between the room and the street for your dad to wander in. For another thing- airbnb could mean stairs or lack of a/c. Neither would be something my grandma would like, and not something she could handle on her bad days either.

4. The idea of staying at a local villa for a few days sound interesting. Any recommendations?

Can't help you there.

5. Is eating out just going to break the banks all the time with all 10 of us? And how well do the French do with large groups and with kids at restaurants?

Kids in restaurants are fine. 10 is a really large group for the places I've seen but manageable probably. Are you smokers/strong aversion to smoke? Because a lot of Parisian restaurants are small but a lot have patio areas...it's just that is where the smokers sit.

Also you wouldn't have to eat every meal together. You could do mix it up, you technically have 3 families there. It's possible that you won't all be on the same food schedule anyway.

6. Must we rent a car/cars?

NO. I wouldn't. Because I think you've already got enough stress on your plate.

Any suggestions/comments are welcomed.

The only thing I would say. I have no idea what your parents are like or how far "gone" your dad is. It may be kinder to both of them to leave dad at home, if he can stay with supervision in familiar surroundings. The trip would give your mother the chance to decompress.

I am not at all sorry I travelled with grandma. I was, later on, the only one who had the mindset and willingness to do so. But it takes a sense of humor, a lot of patience, and the willingness to adjust your plans- on a multigenerational trip, you better make sure everyone is on the same page. When your dad is having a bad day, you either have to split up or be willing to adjust those plans. Some days we went on a bus tour, went shopping, went to a fun new restaurant that I knew she'd love to criticize. On bad days...well...she'd be flipping open a phone book to look up long Dead friends, by their maiden names, who used to live in that town. Or she'd sit down on the subway, clutch my arm, stare very suspiciously at some guy with a pony tail...and whisper loudly "do you think he's going to rob us?" We'd walk into a museum, she'd announce she was bored, and if we didn't leave right now she'd scream. She'd wander down to the hotel lobby to see if I was there (I was in the shower) without her key, in her socks, and then she'd forget why she was down there. And what room she was in. And what city she was in. At a hotel she had stayed in dozens of times over the last 4 decades.

So, it's tough. And we can't make this decision for you. But I will say that if you do it, do a trip that intentionally set up to succeed. Something that will keep your parents engaged and give them the support they need to enjoy themselves. Keep it simple, pick destination based on ease of access, on appropriate lodging, on a variety of things you can do. Namely, less on budget. Avoid the worst of the crowds. Maybe set up "days off" for the adults. Take dad off your mother's hands and send mom on a garden tour for the day. Get the other adults to play tour guide so you can take your kids to the amusement park or pool for the day. Do the same for those adults.

janisj

>>it will be hard for me to have to plan how to entertain all 10 of us every day… <<

There is enough in either London or Paris to fill months let alone 9 days. London is the largest city in Western Europe (by a looooong ways). And places w/i easy day trips include Windsor, Greenwich, the coast/beach at Brighton, Oxford, and a hundred others. Plus there are many places like parks in the city where one can relax and just 'meander'.

Paris is not nearly as large but also has more than enough to fill 9 days.

Trust it - there will be no problem at all to plan 9 days.

marvelousmouse

Posted after a few of the responses above. What swandav is talking about- I think it depends on the person. Traveling distracted grandma. She always loved to travel and lunch with the ladies and drink. Staying at home just made her obsess and obsess, mostly about people being dead. When she STOPPED travelling, when we finally had to take her agency away and put her in a home for folks with dementia, she went down hill so, so fast. Just gave up.

And it also depends on your mother. I don't know if taking your father along would really give her a break.

But yep, I would definitely talk to your dad's doctor before deciding on anything. Have you travelled with your father post dementia before? Have the other adults? Because you're all in this together, and it might be a disaster (mostly for you) if everyone does not understand this.

bostonwa

Thank you WoinParis and Marvelousmouse and Swandav2000 again.

WoinParis, nice lists! I will definitely study them!

Yes, I am indeed a bit stressed namely because I know I will /am the designated planner for this trip and time is running out on at least firming up a go/no-go and destination to purchase tickets before price goes up.

Parents are actually already will be travelling from the other side of the globe to come visit us and this will be a 'side trip'.
We won't be able to leave dad out but taking him with this year is still doable.

I will say the main part of this experience is for my mom and for the kids. My dad won't need much entertainment actually but the young kids....... ... I really am hoping they will know they are in a different country and can experience different language, food, people etc. If nothing else, if we go to Paris then hopefully they recognize eiffel tower from Madeline and pick up how to say bonjur and merci. that will be a successful trip in a way, if that makes sense.

I know taking young kids to Europe is a different kind of 'debate' .I am hoping this will be more rewarding then staying put here in the States.

Is latin quarter / arr 5 or 6 still the better choice for my group you think?

Thanks!

fuzzbucket

Though I admire your ambition to take everyone on a trip of a lifetime, it would be a good idea to have someone head up smaller groups, rather than your taking on the whole family. For instance, you should appoint someone responsible for each hotel room.

You should also look into trip or health insurance, before you go.
Since you are travelling with elderly people with dementia, it would be wise.

Short-term rentals in Paris are illegal. A law was just passed which requires them to acquire a registration number to be legal and to be posted on the internet. Since most owners or tenants will have to scramble to fill out the paperwork, this will be a wasted effort on your part.

If you require apartment facilities, there are legal apart'hotels, such as Citadines and Adagio. I know that Citadines Richard Lenoir has air-conditioning, but you should check to see if it's included in the other locations. You will definitely need air-conditioning in August.
You might be able to get adjoining rooms - or not - but this would give you multiple bathrooms, kitchens and normally laundry facilities are on premise.

Otherwise, I would advise consulting the hotel list that WoinParis mentioned. You will likely need several rooms, and all will have air-conditioning.

I agree with kerouac - it will be suicidal to go to the beach in August. It will be insanely crowded, and the hotel rates alone will be astronomical.

marvelousmouse

Makes sense.

Then I would do, I don't know, 5 days in Paris and 4 days somewhere smaller and more "exotic". Strasbourg or Chartres or any really well preserved old town.

I loved Paris. I'm already dreaming about returning. But it's very much a big city with lots of stimulation and walking. And things like the security or hawkers around the Eiffel Tower might alarm your father or the kids. And my most vivid memories form my trip were in the smaller, preserved old towns. Less vehicles, less ambient noise, less lines into attractions, compact, just meandering in and out of churches and parks and shops was so much fun. Feels like an open air museum. Parts of Paris feel that way too, but not quite as immersive.

Have the kids watch hunchback of notre dame. And then tell them they'll get to see the hunchback's "home" in person. (Don't promise going inside or seeing the gargoyles until you see the line. The gargoyles were seriously cool, and the kids could probably handle the tower climb, but adults may not want to).. Have them watch beauty and the beast and pick out the French words. Bet you they already know the meaning of "bonjour" Get them excited about food. Cream puffs filled right in front of you at maison choux. Macarons at Pierre Herme. Desserts- patissieries everywhere. Maybe a chocolate tour or foodie tour of a neighborhood? If they've got sweet tooths, they could easily fill up on that and dining would be less expensive I haven't got much of a sweet tooth but the pastries proved to be too much temptation.

Take everyone to the Lafayette department store. The adults will love the glass dome. The kids will love the toy department. Paris has great toy stores, and not the kind you generally see in the US.

Skip the louvre in favor of a smaller, more intimate museum like the Branley, D'orsay, etc. I bet the whole family would enjoy musee forains. Tour is in French, but they do a good job of involving English speakers, and anyway there's something universal about carousels and carnivals.

Or go to the louvre with a specific plan. Like if they want to see Egypt, go see egypt. Or pick a few paintings to talk about that would interest them and then go see those. Major museums like the louvre have children's resources on their website or even special audio guides for kids. (Louvre has some kind of interactive "aladdin's cave" to explore but sadly I can't tell you specifics- it requires flash.) I'd avoid the crowd around Mona Lisa, and I'd buy tickets ahead of time so no waiting in line for that.

Ride metro to arts metier. The station is straight out of Jules Verne and the museum itself will appeal to everyone. Lots of school groups there so very much kid friendly. But also impressive, especially the old church, which is where they display old vehicles on this really cool scaffolding. Kids really enjoyed climbing that.

Go on a river cruise. Great for kids who love boats and great for adults who just want to sit and watch the pretty sites go by.

Hang out in Luxembourg gardens or another park. Great way to enjoy local life without a lot of effort.

(If you google any above places, and can't find it, it's because I did not spell check, sorry)

fuzzbucket

You can rent car seats when you rent a car in Paris or London.
Toll roads, parking and gas are expensive, though. I'd prefer to travel by train.

There are public toilettes - "Sanisettes" - on many sidewalks in busy neighborhoods in Paris. They are free, handicap accessible and most are open 24/7. They are sanitized after each use, and you have 20 minutes to use them.

Otherwise, you will have to rely on cafes to go to the toilettes - which have stairs going up or down. You should purchase something as a courtesy before using them.

There are no toilettes in the Metro stations.

London has toilettes in department stores and museums, but I can't remember if they are free or not.
Otherwise, you will have to go to a pub and go up or down some very treacherous stairs.

As a practical matter, if the adults in your party - or even the little ones - would be amenable to wearing diapers, this would help alleviate the problem. You can purchase them easily in any supermarket or pharmacie.

marvelousmouse

Toilets free in London department stores. In the two museums I went to- Victoria Albert and British Museum (but neither charge admission so that's not surprising).

I'm trying to think of where I used the facilities in Paris. Maybe department stores and my hotel. Museums, but I'm fairly sure that was after admissions. Hotels when I had afternoon tea, mostly because the bathrooms were super nice and on the same level. But as fuzzbucket mentioned, down/up stairs in cafes and not generally what we in the US would see as accessible. I mean in terms of uniformity and railings and width.

Oddly, I don't think I used sanisettes. What do they look like, fuzzbucket?

If diapers aren't possible, definitely encourage everyone to use a bathroom when they see a free and clean one!

marvelousmouse

Ah, the hotel afternoon tea was in London, not Paris.muddled tonight...

WoinParis

We do like Mouse about the Louvre.
Last we went, we said 'Egypt'. We 'did' Egypt in - say 1-2 hours, then sat down a while and left.
The rest : another day. (ok we live 3 hours from Le Louvre).

Except Samothrace. I'm in love with this sculpture, so we made a detour before leaving.

I wouldn't stress about the kids, they will love it - we took ours at all ages and they just loved everything.

I am back from Firenze and the small one (7) surprised me by saying she found the paintings in the Uffizi's so cool.

jamikins

I have done this with a group of 7 adults and it is not easy. No matter what people say they will have differing interests and different ideas about what the trip will be. It is a thankless job organising these types of trips.

But if I did do it again I would not take 10 people of such a diverse range of ages and abilities to a large city. Trying to move a group like that around London or Paris would be my nightmare. I think your dad would find it confusing (my dad is 72 and doesn't have dementia and he finds it overwhelming to travel by tube or metro).

I would rent a villa near a small town (not a village) in the countryside - like Italy - Tuscany, Umbria for example. Get one with a pool for the kids. And if they organise some activities that would be even better. Maybe cooking lessons, or tours, or wine tastings on site would be great. I would get 3 cars and give everyone the freedom to do what they want. The nearby small town could provide shopping and tourism. This will be more manageable for your dad, give people freedom, and provide a relaxing environment for everyone. Plus a pool for the kids.

Some examples in Italy:

http://www.villapia.com/families/ this one is very child friendly
http://www.santantonio.it/
http://www.latavolamarche.com/
http://www.villainumbria.com/private...n-umbria-italy
https://www.casaldeifichi.com/

FuryFluffy

If it was me, I'd choose Option 4: Paris + London. The diversity of Paris + London would be more than that of one city + day trips. But it's because I like diversity. It'll require you to plan the trip carefully around each city, and to know to how relax in each city.

For a group such as yours, 9 solid nights might be 'much' in just one city and too little in 2 cities. If you worry about entertaining them, split the days like this:

4 days for Paris - plan only one main attraction for each day and let the rest of the day for spontaneous activities, or for relaxing, sitting in cafe, enjoying foods etc.

Day 5: Eurostar train to London, it's the most convenient

4 days for London - similarly, plan only one main attraction for each day.

Or vice versa.

Book open-jaw flight ticket (multi-destinations), which flies into one city and departs from another city. It's cheaper than 2 one-way ticket.

Just in case you choose only 1 city, London or Paris still has enough things to entertain you.