lindaeboerner

I am trying to figure out which city to live in next. I am 26, American, married to a German, born and raised in Florida, currently living in Oxford, UK, last lived in Tuebingen, Germany, and was an exchange student in Surat, India and Izmir, Turkey (both of which I *loved*, but I'm afraid the experience I had would not prepare me to understand what it would be like living there as an adult immigrant).

I speak German fluently, grew up in a Spanish immersion school (so would be able to speak it very quickly if exposed to it again), and have always found picking up new languages comes very easily to me. My husband is fluent in English and German and is also keen to learn a new language but does not find picking up new languages terribly easy.

I have a BA in anthropology and sociology, have been working for the past 3 years in event management, and am currently studying to get my CELTA (teaching English as a second language) certification. My husband is nearly finished with his DPhil (PhD) in Behavioural Neuroscience, does not want to stay in academia, but is unsure if he wants to stay in research/science.

We of course have many criteria between us that would make up our ideal place to live, but we are realistic and experienced enough to know we will never catch a unicorn. Our most important factors (listed roughly in order of importance) are:

1) Sunshine/warm weather (I know this may seem a strange top priority to some, but I was shocked by the effect that grey, cold weather has on my wellbeing)
2) NOT primarily English speaking (though preferably a language that is not too difficult to learn)
3) Reasonable hopes of gainful employment (availability of jobs and likelihood of earning enough to sustain ourselves)
4) Open/friendly culture (easy to integrate)
5) Safe

If we got to be more choosy we would add:

6) Pet friendly! (I desperately want a dog, but it is incredibly difficult to have one while renting in Oxford)
7) Easy links to Germany to be able to visit family (hence posting in the Europe forum)
8) High quality and affordable food and wine
9) "Liberal minded" culture and policies
10) Big enough city that there's always "something to do" but not surrounded by tourists (should probably also mention there is something about London and Berlin that is too... 'intense', maybe, for us. Not entirely sure how to explain it, but at least among the people we know in these places there is too much emphasis on the need for drugs, alcohol, and a 'raging' night life in order to have a good time. We generally do prefer something lively, but a smaller/quieter town might also be nice if there were good enough transport links to other places or it was affordable to own and maintain a car.)

Likely to stay wherever we go next for 5 years or so, but no set timeline. We will spend the next year preparing for the move, making visits, and figuring out logistics, but we expect for it to be a relatively easy move since we have both lived in a variety of countries before, have very few belongings, and have no children to think about (neither now nor planned for the future).

I found this site while 'Googling' for leads and was truly impressed by Fodor's forum members: knowledgeable, thoughtful, and practical advice is often difficult to come by on the internet, so this seems like a goldmine! Thank you in advance for any help; I look forward to reading what you all have to suggest.

thursdaysd

Lisbon? But have no idea about the job situation.

IMDonehere

Have not been to Malta. We like Portugal but is extremely limited in activities compared to Italy and Spain. Each country has very different regions with different charms, so you must investigate what you might like.

Italy cities with things to do-Rome, Florence, Milano

Spain-Madrid, Barcelona, Sevilla.

sparkchaser

My coworker keeps going on about how great Lagos is. So, Lagos?

sandralist

Your need for employment in a sunny European country is the biggest challenge, even if you master the langauge quickly. It's the sunny European countries that have the highest unemployment rates, especially in your age bracket. There might be ways for you to be self-employed -- for instance, given your background, you might try to launch a destination wedding business or work with academic/conference groups holding events in Italy or elsewhere -- but that presumes you can become crack not only with the local language but also the local business community and local government to make a success of a business and stay in line with local regulations.

I'll only talk about Italy -- where there are plenty more cities than just Rome, Florence and Milan with "things to do" (plus those last two have difficult weather). Given your wish list, the greater Livorno/Pisa area ticks just about every single one of your boxes except the challenge of finding employment.

As you know, the current situtation in Europe regarding immigration and permissions to stay is going through turbulence. For Italy, your ability to stay longer than 90 days would probably hinge on demonstrating that you presently have the monetary resources to support yourself, or a job waiting for you, or will be a full time student in an accredited program -- BUT you need to speak with the Italian consulate for precise reliable information on what is, as I said, a moving target at the moment.

As someone who was raised in California, spent a year living in the UK and now lives in Italy, I am hugely sympathetic to your need not to be in a country with weather as dismal as the UK's so often is. However, if you only need sunshine and can tolerate some cold but sunny weeks during the year, there are plenty of sunny places in Europe which would offer you better employment prospects and easier integration (since your husband is not gifted at learning other languages). In particular Munich stands out, where your joing fluency in German and your husband's German citizenship would make everything so much easier. Flights from Munich to the western Italian coast are so cheap -- often as little as 40 euros round trip -- you could get in plenty of winter sunshine when you needed it.

sandralist

(Meant to add that if Munich is too large for you, then you might consider Augsberg. Also, I was shocked spending a week in Munich how much cheaper Italian wine is in Munich than it is in Italy. Concluded it's a plus to be in the only country in Europe where the euro actually works for, rather than against, the people. But I wouldn't base your move on the likelihood of the euro lasting.)

sandralist

Unemployment rates

Germany 4.7%
Italy 12.4%
Portugal 13%
Spain 22.7%
Greece 25.6%

Please realize too that all the sunny countries listed above would have much, much higher rates of unemployment, especially youth unemployment, were it not for the fact that so many young people have migrated out of their home country to work elsewhere. For instance in Portugal, for several years running, more than 2,000 young people have been leaving every week for lack of employment opportunity. The effective unemployment rate -- as opposed to the official rate -- in sunny Europe for young people is closer to 50 percent.

sandralist

(Since you speak both German and English, you could possibly find work in one of the sunny countries teaching those langauges to all the young people planning to leave and head for sunnier economic prospects...)

sparkchaser

<i>(Since you speak both German and English, you could possibly find work in one of the sunny countries teaching those langauges to all the young people planning to leave and head for sunnier economic prospects...)</i>

I presume that the OP and her husband would like to maintain a certain standard of living that being an English teacher might not help meet.

traveller1959

What comes into my mind first when reading your criteria is the Côte d'Azur: beautiful climate, highly civilized, lots of cultural activities, no need to speak of food and wine, and certainly a lot of employment opportunities for academics. However expensive, but opportunities to buy cheap houses in the hinterland if you do not mind renovating a crumbling old house. It is comparativly easy to build up social contacts with the natives because the cultures are similar.

Many Germans go to Spain - Andalucia or Mallorca or even Tenerife. Less expensive than France, also warm and sunny (at least in the south). Since the real estate values have sharply dropped after the crisis of 2008, real estate has become affordable. However, job opportunities are very limited. And it is almost impossible to make friends with the locals.

Another haven for "Aussteiger" is Greece. Greece also has wonderful climate and every infrastructure you need, at least if you stay on the mainland or the Peloponnes (my favourite region in Greece). Everything in Greece is dirt cheap, so, if you bring a little money, you can live like royalty there.

Employment opportunities for academics are limited, of course, especially in the public sector, but the Greek economy is an eldorado for people who start their own business. I know many Germans, British and French who permanently moved to Greece and started some kind of business there. Everything works that is related to tourism (boat rental, surf school, hotel) or to agriculture. Currently, rich Russians are bringing big money to Greece which creates a lot of economic opportunities.

The natives are somewhat lethargic to catch the opportunities. E.g. the Kalamata olives are the best of the world, but the farmers are not smart enough to sell them for high prices to luxury delicatessen shops. Same with wine. With the right marketing concept, you can make fortunes there (sometimes I think I should do it, but my job here is too good and too safe to leave).

The living style of the Greek is not only liberal, it is extremely relaxed: do and let do. They are very open to foreigners and you get along with English in most situations. (I have a friend who owns a house and a boat and three cars in Koroni and who pays taxes but who never bothered to learn more than twenty word of the Greek language. He has his tax advisor and his lawyer who both speak fluent English and they do everything for him.)

And you easily make friends with the Greek people (I speak of personal experience).

sandralist

There was a Scottsish woman who formerly posted a lot on Fodor's who had a career in banking, as did her husband, and the two of them moved to Venice, where they now teach English. It's been several years now, I think, and they live a middle class life. They report being happier, if not richer.

http://jonesesavenezia.blogspot.it

traveller1959

This was cross-posting with Sandralist. The unemployment rates are correct but unemployment is related to skills and qualifications. The employment sector for academics is completely different from that for unskilled workers. I may throw in just a little idea:

What about opening up a academic institute in, say, Greece or Andalucia?

You can start with international conferences and courses. They must meet high academic standards and you must offer a beautiful atmosphere (easy at such locations), all the necessary infrastructure and organization (accomodation, transfers, catering, tourist activities...). And you need reputation - which must come from some luminaries in your field.

You can also apply for international research grants and start a research institute.

But if your husband want to break with science, do something completely different. A friend of mine who was a successful architect once moved from Germany to Greece (the reason was he married a Greek girl), managed an orange plantation (with all the technology and managerial skills imported from Germany) and eventually built a hotel.

sandralist

The idea that what is suppressing growth in the Greek economy is native lethargy and farmers who aren't smart enough to produce for the European luxury market is --- well, is the writer from a cold northern European country?

But Greeks will welcome you from wherever you migrate and whatever your ancestry.

sandralist

Precisely the people who are leaving Greece and other sunny European countires for lack of opporunity are the well-educated and skilled. The job market for them is the worst -- and yes, they do better moving into farming.

As far as I can tell, the OP and her husband are not looking for careers in academia (the husband is on the fence about it) but even if they were, I would caution that your fairyland scenario is fine if they bring several million or more euros to set it up. But if Greeks could have found the investors to set up such academic paradises, they would have done it. They're not stupid. They need debt relief.

sandralist

"A devastating brain drain is luring away the best and brightest of Greece’s workforce, several reports showed, with estimates varying between 180,000 and 200,000 well-educated citizens leaving the cash-strapped nation.


At that rate, the exodus translates to about 10% of the country’s total university-educated workforce, said Lois Lambrinidis, a professor of economic geography at the University of Macedonia.

On a macro level, this movement is a clear brain drain, said Nicholas Alexiou, a sociology professor at CUNY’s Queens College who studies Greek immigration patterns.

What differentiates a brain drain from other types of migrant waves is the high percentage of skilled and educated people who leave the country, Alexiou said.

In other words, Greece is losing its “youngest, best and brightest,” as a European University Institute study dated March 2014 noted.

According to the study, of those who have left 88% hold a university degree, and of those, over 60% have a master's degree, while 11% hold a Ph.D.

According to the EUI report, 79% of those who left Greece during the crisis were actually employed but felt that there was “no future” in the country (50%) or no professional opportunities (25%)....

As Greece’s unemployment rate reached 25.7% in January 2015 — more than double the 9.7% average for the European Union — the number of educated young Greeks who have left the country since the beginning of the crisis rose to 180,000, according to Lambrianidis, who is set to release his findings next month as part of two research projects financed by the London School of Economics and the European Union.

Overall, Endeavor estimates 200,000 Greeks below the age of 35 have left the country since the beginning of Greece’s crisis in 2010.

That figure is likely higher now, given that Endeavor’s data only run through 2013.

Although arguably the most prominent cash-strapped state, Greece isn’t the only country facing a brain drain.

Portugal also lost an estimated 428,000 people between 2011 and 2014, about 4.28% of its population or the equivalent of one person every five minutes leaving. And Spain lost about half a million people up until 2013, which the country’s Employment Minister Fátima Báñez called an “unprecedented flight of talent.”



http://www.marketwatch.com/story/gre...ney-2015-05-07

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...st-brain-drain

http://money.cnn.com/2015/06/24/news...e-brain-drain/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b027f9b96a46af

sandralist

(I'm not going to argue this point further. A great many young professionals from sunny countries are currently working in the UK and Germany. The OP and her husband can easily find them, and I am sure most would be more than happy to give them a realistic picture of employment prospects in the countries they migrated from.)

Odin

I don't understand the comment about the olives. Kalamata olives and olive oil is widely available outside Greece. Greek rose wine is especially good and white wines from Santorini & other places and can be bought outside Greece.

I was going to suggest Cyprus, a place that gets little attention on this forum. Slightly better economy situation than Greece, its the same culturally (in the south). Event management opportunities might exist but job opportunities are few and far between plus job offers can depend on who you know and who you are related to. Doubt English language teachers are needed since most learn it at school. Rent is inexpensive, food is expensive in the supermarkets. Weather is great. There are international companies in Nicosia, Greek is not always needed and few foreigners master it sufficiently. You can get a dog easily, they are abandoned all over the place, Greece and Cyprus does not have a great track record in this area.

traveller1959

"But you didn't, did you?"

Damien Hirst's response to someone who said that anyone could have done the artwork with the shark in the tank.

It is the same with business. Many may have the same idea but it needs someone to do it. And in Greece, many have not done so far.

This is not a fairyland scenario, this is a true story. Once upon a time a German came to spend a summer in Koroni. He enjoyed the beautiful sandy, 2.5 kilometre-long beach and wondered why there were no watersport activities.

And he just did. He opened a school for windsurfing and quickly added sailing, snorkeling and boat rental when he saw that he had found a market niche. He decided to spend his summer months in Greece, purchased a piece of land and built himself a beach hut. Eventually he added more huts and started to rent them to tourists until a small hotel developed where he and his wife also offer dance lessons, massage etc. After 33 years he finally sold the surf school.

He know calls his little hotel behind the watersports school his "paradise", because it is surrounded by a lush garden. He does not make millions but lives in paradise. Not too bad.

Look here: http://www.koroni.biz/index.html

Now, just take this forum. In the recent weeks, there have been several threads (apparently from Americans) with the same request: We want to travel to Greece, see some archeological sites and spend a few days relaxing at a beautiful beach. And then, they assume, the only way to find a beach is taking the hassle of a ferryboat or even a flight to an island.

There are hundreds of beautiful beaches all over the Greek mainland and the Peloponnes. Some of them are close to common tourist attractions like Athens, Delphi, Meteora, Nafplio, but they are fairly unknown and undeveloped. Why not open a business at one of these beaches? What do you need for this:

- Firstly, you must organize transportation to your beach, especially for those who are unwilling to rent a car.

- Secondly, you need facilities (they are usually provided by a beach restaurant which may be operated by a local family).

- Thirdly, you need some attractions. Besides the usual watersports, there is room for creativity. What about snorkeling for beginners? An underwater petting zoo? A fish hatchery where customers can catch the fish which is subsequently cooked in the restaurant? A beachside cooking school?

- Fourthly, you need marketing. Make your beach experience known to visitors of other attractions and to tour companies which may offer tours to archeological sites which include a beach experience - certainly very attractive to many tourists (including cruise ship passengers).

traveller1959

Odin, you are right. I know a pediatrist who just moved from Germany to Cyprus with his family. He could have taken over his father's office but decided to take his chances in Cyprus.

bilboburgler

I'd think Spain is the obvious one, Portugal is still struggling, Italy; my business dealings there suggest it helps if you are Italian (who you know not what you know), there is a good band of interesting locations across the south of France such as Toulouse to Nice which might be good. Greece is going to take a generation to pull round. The Dalmation coast is still too into internal confusion for much sense in the next 20 years.

Around Europe my various Friends and Relations all point at Czech as the next big thing, but it is cold in winter (still you often get blue skies) and the language is not impossible Bruno is certainly a technical city that might do.