Fodor's Travel Talk Forums - Princess Cruise line cancels Puerto Vallarta port stops ...

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Princess Cruise line cancels Puerto Vallarta port stops ...

The article didn't mention any specific incidents or statistics that raised concerns about safety......

There have been no incidents concerning "safety" of tourists in Puerto Vallarta to date.

OK. I read the article. They don't actually sight any factual "safety concerns".

I am very up on what's going on in Vallarta and just returned from a trip there last month. I believe the cruiselines are making 'knee jerk' reactions that has more to do with their wallets and profitability, because potential passengers may be uninformed and believe it to be unsafe. Even though it is not.

They should be honest and say they aren't going to PV because they can't fill the ships, not because of some fake "due to safety concerns" excuse.

Ridiculous ! There's more crime in their home port of Long Beach !
I agree Suze, it's all about money.

If they are going to be flinging around generalizations they should say what the heck they are referring to. WHAT "safety concerns" precisely? I'd be more afraid of getting food poisoning or a mysterious cruiseship virus on a Princess Line ship, than I would of any "safety concerns" in the city of Puerto Vallarta.

I agree: It seems such a drastic decision, especially coming from a company that pioneered cruises to the Mexican Riviera. It sounds like they're shortening the trips, substituting PV with an extra day in Cabo San Lucas. Nothing against Los Cabos -- I work on the Fodor's guide to Los Cabos & Baja -- but I think you're really missing out if you don't get to see Puerto Vallarta.

Stranger still becasue Cabo San Lucas and Puerto Vallarta have the exactly same "safety concerns" for tourists... NONE.

I think I first became aware of Puerto Vallarta and those other Pacific ports through "The Love Boat" TV show, and those were supposed to be Princess ships. :)

And is anybody calling at Acapulco these days? Come to think of it, I don't see discussion about it here at all. :(

hmmm... I don't think so? I certainly don't know anyone who's traveling there these days on their own. Because unfortunately Acapulco IS one of the places that has had at least one pretty dramatic and high profile violent incident, that I can understand would discourage people from visiting.

I can remember when the name "Acapulco" evoked glamour. Sad that it's fallen out of favor the way it has. :(

That's so true Jeff. I would like to go to Acapulco, but in the 1950's!

The article didn't mention any specific incidents or statistics 

A couple of other articles guessed that the killing of a Canadian living in Vallarta was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. He was forced to open a business safe at knife-point, $13,000 - $20,000 was stolen and then he was killed anyway.

From one site linking this killing to the Princess decision: "... recent news supports the decision made this week by Princess Cruises. Leonard Schell a Canadian father of two was stabbed 25 times in his Puerto Vallarta home last month and robbed of about $13,000, bank cards and passports reports CTV.ca. "They cut him from his lip to his throat. It's terrible, and just to rob money," Schell's wife, Elba Ruiz said."

Seems like a stretch to me because he was not a tourist (he ran a small business down there), but that's the speculation.

There have been no incidents concerning "safety" of tourists in Puerto Vallarta to date

Not true at all ... per US State Dept statistics on deaths of US citizens abroad Puerto Vallarta had a higher rate of homicides than any other Pacific resort. For example ...

* more tourists were killed during armed robberies in Vallarta than in Cabo San Lucas, Ixtapa, Zihuatanejo and Acapulco COMBINED. Only Mazatlan is close to the Vallarta homicide rate for US citizens (another city the cruise lines won't stop at).

* more tourists/US citizens (some possibly ex-pats) were killed in Vallarta than in all of Canada during the 8 years of the most recent study, even though Canada has more than 3 times the number of US tourists.

* here are three examples of armed robberies that ended in the deaths of US citizens since 2008:

- 2/11/2009 Tim Connor, 47, a tourist from California, was sleeping in a time-share condo near Los Muertos beach with his wife when someone broke in at 4 AM and stabbed him to death, injuring his wife when she tried to help (to find web links to any of these enter '(victim's name) mexico death' in a search box)

- 3/26/2008 Felicia Melton-Smyth, a tourist on a group trip from Wisconsin, stabbed to death and robbed in her hotel room by a 36 year old homeless man.

- 3/28/2008 David Parrish, 21 year old college student, shot and killed near the Marina during spring break at 4 PM. A report said two men were robbing his mother after she withdrew $ from an ATM and when he tried to help her he was shot. The men were caught but the shooter released a short time later 'by accident' and is still at large.

If I were involved with the cruise ship industry I'd be most worried about the Parrish killing since it's right where the cruise ship passengers pass thru.

For those who say 'this happens everywhere in the US' I'm not buying it. I live in one of the 5 most populous cities in the US and we get at least double, maybe triple the number of tourists that Vallarta gets. I can't remember a single incident of tourists being targeted and then murdered during robberies. Not saying it has never happened, just saying I've never read or heard about it in 25 years of living here.

Stranger still becasue Cabo San Lucas and Puerto Vallarta have the exactly same "safety concerns" for tourists... NONE.

Number of US citizens victims of homicide in Cabo San Lucas and Los Cabos during the 8 years of the State Dept study: zero

Number of US citizens victims of homicide in Puerto Vallarta during the 8 years of the State Dept study: six

Thanks, Bill. I didn't know any of this. That's certainly troubling to hear. It still seems like a drastic move though. I can cite far more incidents of problems during the same time period here in Costa Rica than you mentioned for PV, and Princess still calls here. It does make me wonder if something else went into the decision.

Yes I already am aware of each of those stories and it does not change my opinion.

For the first incident mentioned, there are some important details missing from your summary. I read the newpaper articles at the time. He was married to a Mexican and living in Vallarta. In a home with a security system. Which was off and he opened the door in his underwear (so assuming he knew the person). He had $20,000 cash. So while a sad event, he was not a tourist on vacation and speculation there is more to the story than a home robbery, that it was a 'hit'.

So yes things bad happen in Puerto Vallarta. When I said NONE I was referring to how people seem to think somehow tourists are being targeted by the drug cartels or will come into harm associated with that mafia-styled violence. And that is what I say had not ever happened.

There is a tread on this topic going on right now over at the Trip Advisor PV forum that has a more balanced presentation imo.

Bill_H Only 3 TOURISTS in 3 years. Also the one you picked out, Parish, did not occur near the Marine Terminal, it was in the The Marina, which is not near the cruise ships.
Long Beach CA, the home port of Princess Cruises reported 235 murders alone last year.
They are being sued by the parents of a 14 year old passenger who was shot in St. Thomas last year, are they cancelling that route ?

Bill_H Only 3 TOURISTS in 3 years.

cabron, I agree that 3 is not many but it's a lot more than none, which is what others were saying.

And it's more than all of the other Pacific resorts except maybe Mazatlan, which should be troubling.

Long Beach CA, the home port of Princess Cruises reported 235 murders alone last year.

But were ANY of these tourists? Or more specifically, tourists killed during botched robberies or hotel room invasions, like the three in Vallarta? Googling 'long beach tourist homicide' doesn't turn up a single match.

Jeff wrote "I can cite far more incidents of problems during the same time period here in Costa Rica than you mentioned for PV, and Princess still calls here."

The State Dept #'s for Costa Rica in the same time period show 28 US citizen homicides in CR (not broken out for tourists vs ex-pats), 13 in San Jose. I think the total in Mexico was 383 but most of these were in the border towns. For the Pacific resorts it was 19 homicides, more than half in Mazatlan and Vallarta.

Forget the statistics they are not reliable, listen to people who actually live here, not sitting in an office somewhere watching Faux News.

<which is what others were saying.>

Well if you are talking about me, I already *tried* to explain. My "NONE" was in reply to safety concerns relating to drug cartel violence in Mexico. Sure things happen. but more people die from drowning and traffic accidents than from homicide in Vallarta.

Sorry but you're trying to make this sound worse than it is. And yes more people are shot, stabbed, and otherwise killed in my neighborhood of Seattle than the 9.5 homicides (half of 19) you are quoting shared in PV & Mazatlan 9.5 divided by 2 again) being less than 5 people per year.

And yes more people are shot, stabbed, and otherwise killed in my neighborhood of Seattle than the 9.5 homicides (half of 19) you are quoting shared in PV & Mazatlan 

Suze, how many of those people killed in your neighborhood were tourists? I'll bet very few, if any. When I googled 'seattle tourist murder homicide' I got some hits for tourist FROM Seattle being murdered elsewhere but didn't see anything on the first couple of pages of tourists to Seattle getting knocked off.

If you want to make a meaningful comparison then compare the homicide rate of tourists visiting in the US vs tourists visiting Mexico, since you are apparently trying to make the point that it's not dangerous down there compared to the US (if you compare all homicides, tourist and locals, then clearly Mexico loses that due to all the drug violence).

Possibly you could find areas in the US with high base crime rates and a lot of tourism and one or more of them might have a higher rate than Vallarta.

For example I thought of Florida back in the 1990's when the cocaine trafficking in south Florida was big and some European tourists were killed in well-publicized car-jackings and robberies. Here were some stats that popped up on the first page:

One year in early 1990's (when violence was near-peak) Florida had 9 tourists killed, with 41 million visitors.

How does that compare to Puerto Vallarta during the 8 years of the State Dept info? Figure maybe 2 million US tourists a year, so 16 million tourists, and 6 homicides of US citizens (not broken down into tourists vs ex-pats but at least 3 were clearly tourists).

So 9 of 41 million for one of the worst periods in US vs 6 in 15 million for Vallarta.

You might try to get data on New Orleans and compare, lots of tourists there, many drinking and partying too much so easy targets, and a pretty high crime rate after Katrina ...

Forget the statistics they are not reliable, listen to people who actually live here

Cabron, the people who live there and depend on tourism for their livelihood are every bit as reliable as the co-worker who shows you a photo of his 9 year old daughter and assures you she's the cutest, smartest 4th grader in all of Scottsdale.

I've got no dog in this fight, Bill_H. So don't go to Mexico if you think it's so dangerous for tourists there. Personally I will continue to vacation annually, and hopefully live someday, in Puerto Vallarta.

It's certainly Princess' call if they choose to skip the port, but the additional info provided by Bill_H isn't enough to convince this tourist to stay out of PV.........

No the shootings in Seattle were not tourists. But I am not a tourist when I am in Seattle, I live here. The *point* I was making is that I have LESS likelyhood of getting shot in PV as a tourist than at home in my own neighborhood as a resident.

Bill_H where do you live,? I live in Puerto Vallarta and have for 18 years, who knows the situation better, you or me ?

For a true picture of what tourists and residents of Puerto Vallarta think about "violence" in that 325,000 population port-city, I invite all to visit:

http://www.change.org/petitions/prin...allarta-mexico

Read the comments, and, if you are so inclined, join the campaign, by all means!

There is crime in Mexico, yes. Murders are committed in the country, of course. Just as there is crime, and murders are committed, everywhere on Earth, unfortunately.

The sustained attack on Mexico’s image, mostly by the US and Mexican media, is unprecedented in terms of its scope and distortion of the facts. The allegations of wide-spread violence in Mexico are inflammatory and baseless.

When viewed in the proper context, 99% of Mexico is safer than 99% of the United States.

There were 34,162 murders between 2006 and 2010, mostly drug related, in Mexico according to the Calderon administration. It is important to note that Law enforcement in Mexico rushes to label most crimes as “drug related” to bolster the perception that the country is in total disarray --largely to allow more US intervention in domestic affairs via the Merida Plan and secret dealings between Calderón's administration and the US, part of his “Mexico 2030 Plan, a Grand Vision Project”.

More than 95% of these murders were committed in Ciudad Juárez and 84 more municipalities in the states of Chihuahua, Sinaloa, Tamaulipas and Guerrero. 44% of all in the state of Chihuahua alone.

85 municipalities, in three states, have a serious murder problem. The rest of Mexico’s 2,500 municipalities and its remaining 28 states are, bluntly, safer than most places in the United States.

The greater Mexico City metropolitan area would appear to be an exception; however, considering that it has over 20 million population and an average 191 murders a year, crime per capita is still lower than in the 20 most dangerous cities in the US.

Yes, violence is horrific in less than 1% of Mexico's 761,606 square miles. That less than 1% has a much higher murder rate per capita than almost everywhere else in the world; but that less than 1% is far, far away from Puerto Vallarta.

The widely publicized assassination of a full-time resident of Puerto Vallarta, who happened to be Canadian, while painful to his family and very regrettable, had absolutely nothing to do with the literally hundreds of thousands of tourists who visit Puerto Vallarta every year or, even, with the tens of thousands expats who call Puerto Vallarta home. The victim opened his door, wearing only his boxer shorts --when his wife was not home--, to the perpetrator or perpetrators; it is clear that this was not a random act of violence. According to all who knew the victim, he was an extraordinarily cautious man who never opened his door before verifying the identity of the caller via interphone and would have never opened his door, almost naked, to anyone other than a very close acquaintance.

To contrast these figures, the FBI reported 65,642 murders committed in the United States between 2006 and 2009, and their preliminary data for 2010 indicates that 14,570 murders were committed in the US in 2010. A total of 80,212 murders committed in the United States between 2006 and 2010; 34,162 in Mexico, with over 95% of those committed in Mexico in 85 of it 2,500 municipalities.

A clear example of this bias is the media attention to Princess Cruise Lines (PCL) libelous press release announcing the cancellation of three port visits to Puerto Vallarta alleging that the “continued violence” in that port-city forced them to do so, falsely stating that a US Department of State Travel Warning and their internal security said so.

Puerto Vallarta has never been labeled by the US Department of State as unsafe, not even remotely. Puerto Vallarta has much lower criminality than Long Beach, CA --PCL’s headquarters--, Bermuda, Bahamas, Jamaica and ALL other destinations visited by Princess Cruise Lines. Comparing apples to apples, Puerto Vallarta is much safer than Myrtle Beach, SC --the 14th. mosts dangerous city in the US, according to the FBI--, or Saskatoon, AB --the most dangerous place in Canada, per RCMP statistics--. Both cities with approximately the same population as Puerto Vallarta, Myrtle Beach with less tourism.

Not surprisingly, Carnival Cruises --PCL’s owner-- continues sailing to Puerto Vallarta, together with Holland America, Royal Caribbean and Disney Cruises. PCL itself will do so through November 2011 and again in 2012; PCL canceled only THREE port visits scheduled for November and December, 2011.

Again, those so inclined are urged to join the campaign to demand that Princess Cruise Lines stops slandering the safety of Puerto Vallarta:

http://www.change.org/petitions/prin...allarta-mexico

Puerto Vallarta, and 99% of Mexico, is much safer than 99% of the United States. Enough lies!